Tactics Talk:

[SpacedX]

26 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Why do people think Rodgers tells the players to slow it down, be patient, as yesterday he was shouting specifically at Vardy and Maddison telling them to move it faster. 

Because they weren't moving the ball faster? 

[sacreblueits442]

6 hours ago, LaCiudad said:

Rodgers clearly instructs the players to play with patience. I think the players confuse slowing the game down and playing without intensity with patience.

Rodgers needs to tweak this thinking.

...we have had this problem for years!!!

How we have not resolved it is a mystery, we had it under Ranieri, Puel and now Rodgers and still the players do not understand, it is hard to see why. It is something that always comes to the fore in our performances and yet we start out sluggish in games and as soon as teams sit in we just can not find a way to break them down. We pushed a high line yesterday and the defenders were very much involved in recycling the ball and we are not going to get any creativity from there, unless we have Soyuncu or Fofana picking up the ball and running at their defence in order to bring defenders out of their positions.

  Playing with a tempo is a mindset and you need someone on the pitch who is going to drive this. Take quick free kicks, be alert, do not allow the opposition to be comfortable in their time on the pitch. We do need players with a can do attitude, it is a mentality thing.

[Dahnsouff]

18 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Because they weren't moving the ball faster? 

Hmmm. Not sure you grasped the question.

[SpacedX]

Just now, Dahnsouff said:

Hmmm. Not sure you grasped the question.

Yeah I did, even though you didn't pose it as such given the omission of a question mark - and I wasn't trying to be facetious either. 

 

From my perspective, I was referring to "patience" in terms of the full 90 minutes as opposed to our attack per se. Containing the pressure - ceding possession, game management and pressing later in the game. Yesterday Rogers was understandably keen for us to move the ball quicker when attacking and when we do this during an attacking phase the channels are open or on the counter the opposition can't get back or regroup to defend. The rapid virtual one touch build up to Vardy's goal against West Brom being a great example. Conversely when we are playing a possession game, we can also run teams ragged through quick movement of the ball.

 

That doesn't mean that you can't control, influence or slow the tempo of the game to assemble and build an attack. Yesterday, clearly we didn't have enough urgency or we weren't moving the ball faster in or fast enough into the final third for Brendan's liking. 

 

Possibly the most sublimely gifted football I have ever seen was Andrea Pirlo's ability to stop time. 

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, Deeg67 said:

Strider, the issue I take with your argument is that the 3-4-1-2 forces more of our best players (Barnes, Maddison, Ricardo, Castagne, Vardy) to play where they're less effective positionally than players it helps.  When everyone is healthy I don't think it maximizes the talent we have against most opponents.  And while we've ground out a few results with it against weak opponents, I think the numbers of really good team performances we've put in playing five at the back is infinitesimally small.

That's a fair argument, but we'd have to agree to disagree! I feel the system only negatively impacts Barnes, and we've only really played since Barnes was injured! Perhaps that's telling that we will shift back when he's ready? I don't buy the argument that it hurts Maddison, Ricardo, Castagne or Vardy. Ricardo and Maddison have been injured, Castagne has been sublime and Vardy can't hit a barn door but is assisting Kelechi every other game.

 

I feel like a few people want me to come out and say that 3412 is the work of the devil and that Rodgers should be castrated for even attempting to play that way, but I really don't think that.Given the injuries and state of the squad, Rodgers came up with a fantastic way to transform the team and get results. I'll also remind everyone that initially he tried to use Perez as a false 9 and retaining the 4 at the back shape, but it didn't work in the league, whereas 3421 has.

 

Next season I am not bothered about which way we play, or if we play a new system altogether. At our best we play expansive attacking football that is a joy to watch, and gets results. And that is one of many reasons why I am in love with this current Leicester City team !

[Guest Fktf]

The way vardy plays with kels in the 3 atb would also suit barnes. Quite often we're seeing vardy running the left channel, like to good old days.

 

I actually thought it was a mistake against Southampton to shift from the 3. Every time Cags brought the ball out from the back, minamino didn't know whether to track Thomas or engage cags. Him and fofana driving out with the ball might have pulled their players out of position a bit more than what we achieved by brining perez on. All hindsight though...

[Collymore]

I wonder sometimes if Rodgers over looks the basics.

 

On Friday I thought we were really silly giving freekicks away in our half. Their goal came from a Castange silly foul, it was the only way Southampton were ever going to score IMO but we seemed oblivious to it. 

 

There was another foul we gave away near the half way line and it caused all sorts of problems being lifted into our box. 

Edited 2 May 2021 by Collymore

[sacreblueits442]

9 hours ago, Collymore said:

I wonder sometimes if Rodgers over looks the basics.

 

On Friday I thought we were really silly giving freekicks away in our half. Their goal came from a Castange silly foul, it was the only way Southampton were ever going to score IMO but we seemed oblivious to it. 

 

There was another foul we gave away near the half way line and it caused all sorts of problems being lifted into our box. 

..he may instruct the team not to do so, but they do not always follow through!!!

[Guest ttfn]

@StriderHiryuI’d be interested to see your thoughts on why we seem to be so vulnerable to the counter attack in the current formation.

 

In a 3-5-2/3-4-3 we have looked wide open to the counter attack all season. Fulham, Leeds, West Ham (twice), Palace and Newcastle have all absolutely killed us on the counter attack. A common theme there is the formation - in the 4-2-3-1 we played before Barnes’ injury we looked a lot more secure.

 

It’s particularly curious because on the face of it Tielemans and Ndidi still provide something of a “double pivot” in front of the defence. I’m not sure that Tielemans is significantly further advanced in a 3-5-2 than a 4-2-3-1. Yet time and again we’re getting hit on the break. It also seems that where we’re getting hit is straight through the middle - with 3 centre backs and 2 central midfielders (at least one of whom is inarguably a defensive pick) that shouldn’t be happening, if anything you’d expect the spaces to be in behind the wing backs. But we’re giving up 2-3 top quality chances per game from simple balls being played through the middle.

[ronnup]

Problem is Rodgers thinks we were good. He blamed the game on silly mistakes. Which to a degree is correct for some of the goals, but he's an arrogant man. He will think the system worked because we had chances to score. 

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, ttfn said:

@StriderHiryuI’d be interested to see your thoughts on why we seem to be so vulnerable to the counter attack in the current formation.

 

In a 3-5-2/3-4-3 we have looked wide open to the counter attack all season. Fulham, Leeds, West Ham (twice), Palace and Newcastle have all absolutely killed us on the counter attack. A common theme there is the formation - in the 4-2-3-1 we played before Barnes’ injury we looked a lot more secure.

 

It’s particularly curious because on the face of it Tielemans and Ndidi still provide something of a “double pivot” in front of the defence. I’m not sure that Tielemans is significantly further advanced in a 3-5-2 than a 4-2-3-1. Yet time and again we’re getting hit on the break. It also seems that where we’re getting hit is straight through the middle - with 3 centre backs and 2 central midfielders (at least one of whom is inarguably a defensive pick) that shouldn’t be happening, if anything you’d expect the spaces to be in behind the wing backs. But we’re giving up 2-3 top quality chances per game from simple balls being played through the middle.

I don’t really have much to say here. Earlier in the season we also got caught on the break but it was in the channels left vacant by wing backs pushing up. Through the middle should never happen structurally in this system!

[Fox92]

Castagne playing at centre back was the issue last night. He was still playing as if he was in a wing back role; playing one twos and going forward. I don't blame him for it but once Evans got injured Rodgers should have put Amartey in at centre back instead of complicating it. The amount of space Newcastle had to counter once they won the ball from us was unreal. It's okay Rodgers saying we could have had 5 but they could have had 7.

[Deeg67]

9 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

Castagne playing at centre back was the issue last night. He was still playing as if he was in a wing back role; playing one twos and going forward. I don't blame him for it but once Evans got injured Rodgers should have put Amartey in at centre back instead of complicating it. The amount of space Newcastle had to counter once they won the ball from us was unreal. It's okay Rodgers saying we could have had 5 but they could have had 7.

Sticking with 5 at the back is what was overcomplicating it.  Play Ricardo and Castagne as fullbacks and play either Albrighton or Perez as a winger.  Yeah it forces Maddison to play wider which isn't his best role, but he's been dog shlt in the middle anyway so you may as well give it a go.

[HighPeakFox]

I only have two tactical insights to offer. Don't give the ball away cheaply and don't do Cruyff turns on the edge of your own area.

[lcfc_forever]

Don't see how we can pay 3 atb without Evans, as Rodgers effectively admitted yesterday as he organises Fofana and Soyuncu. 

 

I think if Evans is not fit, a diamond or 4-2-3-1 are the likely alternatives.

 

I'd like to see Vardy in the Barnes role on the left, with Albrighton on the right and Perez supporting Ihenacho upfront. 

 

Would be tempted to bring in Mendy as well but it's clear that Tielemans prefers playing a deep-lying role rather than being pushed up the pitch to support the forwards. 

 

Edited 8 May 2021 by lcfc_forever

[Paninistickers]

Cold light of day, morning had 13 hours off this site and any thoughts of football 

 

It seemsnPL coaches and video analysts have now worked out how to play our emergency 352 system, a luxury we exploited for 6 or 7 games from.Burnley onwards.

 

Press our sideways pass to the wing.back around or just over halfway to steal possession 

 

Put Tielemans under pressure anywhere but deep

 

.....imo, we've got to reboot and form a tweaked system as we did at Burnley. I'd actually consider flooding midfield and bringing Mendy back to allow Tielemans further up the pitch. Mendy can also track runners such as Mount and Fernando's. I love madders to death, but he'd have to be the fall guy and used as an impact sub. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Danny Clender]

11 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

I only have two tactical insights to offer. Don't give the ball away cheaply and don't do Cruyff turns on the edge of your own area.

That's Tuesday's team talk sorted.

[HighPeakFox]

3 minutes ago, Danny Clender said:

That's Tuesday's team talk sorted.

One can analyse and analyse, but really...play better and most other things get sorted.

[Koke]

352 are supposed to make us more solid but we've shipped in stupid goals playing like that. 

[Danny Clender]

 

44 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

One can analyse and analyse, but really...play better and most other things get sorted.

Great, it's really taking shape now...

 

Don't give the ball away cheaply and don't do Cruyff turns on the edge of your own area.

Play better and most other things get sorted. 

[Pliskin]

5 hours ago, ronnup said:

Problem is Rodgers thinks we were good. He blamed the game on silly mistakes. Which to a degree is correct for some of the goals, but he's an arrogant man. He will think the system worked because we had chances to score. 

Well the thing is he isn’t completely wrong. We score our chances and Newcastle have an off day, those balls into the channels probably get forgotten about.

 

We push the full backs up really high, and we have been playing a really high line against the “lesser” teams. That’s been our undoing, they’ve all sat in and then played balls into those channels. Fofana is off the pace probably due to him fasting, but he’s looked really poor in the last two games. And we all know Cags takes a chance. We’re getting caught and giving balls away in really poor areas of the pitch, which leads to us conceding simple chances. 
 

Thing is, it’s not just recently, we’ve done it for most of the season, we’ve conceded really, really poor goals. 
 

When we push up as high as we do, the ball rotation has to be quick, it has to be precise. That’s the bit that gets me, we don’t move the ball quickly, there’s a few players in the side who need a second touch, and the movement isn’t enough, madders is a big culprit when he is off it, he takes far too long on the ball sometimes, probably looking for that headline finish, but more often than not it halts our progress up the pitch. 
 

You need players like David Silva in style. Those who just keep the ball moving, which is probably why Praet would be a better option for the last few games. If you try to play possession football, slowly, with a high line you will 9/10 get punished. 

[jmono84]

3 hours ago, Koke said:

352 are supposed to make us more solid but we've shipped in stupid goals playing like that. 

Yea that’s the problem. If you look at the goals we’ve conceded recently the opposition have had to do very little to score. System don’t work and I hope we see it a lot less going forward.

[cruzFOX]

We really are a jekyll & hyde team. When the boys are on it the passes are quick, decisive, precise and often deadly with a goal at the end. Even when they are passing it around switching it back & forth and side to side its done at speed. Yesterday is what happens when they try to play the same way but with lack of focus, intent, determination and courage. Simple passes go astray or don't reach the intended targets plus its all played out slowly so the opposition has time to figure it out, intercept and laugh a counter attack. Time and time again newcastle attacked us after waiting for us to lose possession which we happily obliged. Bruce is not a genius but he knew that if he played the quick counter attack us we would fold especially if we were not on it thats the part of luck and boy was he lucky. 

 

I'm really baffled with this team. They can read such great heights but equally stoop so low too. I would love to see and hear what Brendan is saying to them right now. They are literally blowing it and if its not fixed this week whatever the mental problem is they will sleep walk themselves into the 4 more failures. You can bet Chelski will play a high pressure pressing game against us. They know we are vulnerable and will want to expose it ruthlessly and quickly. Boy I sure wish we had the energy and bite of JJ and Barnes right now. We only have 1 weapon up front in Nacho and if he doesn't get the service we are screwed. Not even mentioning Vardy as he is practically invisible right now. 

[StriderHiryu]

Little bit of insight into yesterday's game, as mentioned by Luke Thomas post match. We use a formation that changes shape during the game.

 

When we are defending we play a back 4 and 442 shape as follows:

 

 

But when we attacked we went back to 3412, utilising our "spare" 3rd CB to create overloads on one flank with Ndidi often dropping back slightly ahead of Soyuncu and Fofana, with Thomas and Castagne providing the width. Our first goal came from such a scenario. We targeted the space behind Telles who likes to push up, using Albrighton as the overload because Castagne switched from 3rd CB to impromptu 2nd wing back:

 

 

This means we shifted Man U to defend down their right hand side, meaning Thomas could match up 1 on 1 against one player to support the attack and pull off a brilliant finish. But the idea of creating the overload to create chances for the opposite wing-back were 100% practiced on the training ground and intentional. 

 

This tactic of using our spare CB to create an overload is a Rodgers special and he's been using it all season. It's why James Justin or Castagne are often picked as a 3rd CB... they aren't being selected for defensive prowess, but to be good enough to help defend structurally, but to offer a surprise attacking outlet when we go forwards. It gives the opposition a very difficult question to answer as it's not entirely clear which player should pick our 3rd CB when they make their move. It's also hard to categorise the system in general! Is it a 442, or a 3412? It's probably both!

 

The biggest loser in this system is Perez, who isn't a left sided midfielder nor a left wing back, but has good defensive awareness and work rate so is trusted to structurally keep his position and line, even though he was poor last night.

 

It will be interesting to see if we use the same system against Chelsea. Chilwell has got the lungs to get up and down a lot better than Telles, but he does push up very high in their system, which we could potentially exploit.

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 May 2021 by StriderHiryu

[An Sionnach]

37 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Little bit of insight into yesterday's game, as mentioned by Luke Thomas post match. We use a formation that changes shape during the game.

 

When we are defending we play a back 4 and 442 shape as follows:

 

 

But when we attacked we went back to 3412, utilising our "spare" 3rd CB to create overloads on one flank with Ndidi often dropping back slightly ahead of Soyuncu and Fofana, with Thomas and Castagne providing the width. Our first goal came from such a scenario. We targeted the space behind Telles who likes to push up, using Albrighton as the overload because Castagne switched from 3rd CB to impromptu 2nd wing back:

 

 

This means we shifted Man U to defend down their right hand side, meaning Thomas could match up 1 on 1 against one player to support the attack and pull off a brilliant finish. But the idea of creating the overload to create chances for the opposite wing-back were 100% practiced on the training ground and intentional. 

 

This tactic of using our spare CB to create an overload is a Rodgers special and he's been using it all season. It's why James Justin or Castagne are often picked as a 3rd CB... they aren't being selected for defensive prowess, but to be good enough to help defend structurally, but to offer a surprise attacking outlet when we go forwards. It gives the opposition a very difficult question to answer as it's not entirely clear which player should pick our 3rd CB when they make their move. It's also hard to categorise the system in general! Is it a 442, or a 3412? It's probably both!

 

The biggest loser in this system is Perez, who isn't a left sided midfielder nor a left wing back, but has good defensive awareness and work rate so is trusted to structurally keep his position and line, even though he was poor last night.

 

It will be interesting to see if we use the same system against Chelsea. Chilwell has got the lungs to get up and down a lot better than Telles, but he does push up very high in their system, which we could potentially exploit.

 

 

 

 

I see no reason why Fofana should not operate as a free defender , carrying the ball forward and pushing into midfield with Ndidi, Evans and Soyuncu behind him , sort of similar to Viera for Arsenal who was always covered by Petit , Adams and Keown. The lad has good control and it would be an alternative to always giving it to Youri