The Politics Thread 2020

[leicsmac]

Posted from elsewhere:

 

"The Dunblane Massacre was 25 years ago today. Seventeen murdered at a primary school near Stirling. There was an immediate call for a ban on handguns, and people handed them in at police stations across the UK.

At the time a journalist who opposed the ban wrote, “Nanny is confiscating their toys. It is like one of those vast Indian programmes of compulsory vasectomy."

That journalist is now our Prime Minister."

I'm presuming his stance on the matter has changed somewhat in the intervening time.

[peach0000]

11 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Posted from elsewhere:

 

"The Dunblane Massacre was 25 years ago today. Seventeen murdered at a primary school near Stirling. There was an immediate call for a ban on handguns, and people handed them in at police stations across the UK.

At the time a journalist who opposed the ban wrote, “Nanny is confiscating their toys. It is like one of those vast Indian programmes of compulsory vasectomy."

That journalist is now our Prime Minister."

I'm presuming his stance on the matter has changed somewhat in the intervening time.

Full article if anyone is interested. Lets hope his opinions have changed!

[Bellend Sebastian]

Am I alone in thinking that the 'The police, crime, sentencing and courts bill' that the government is going to try to get through the commons tomorrow and is causing even more of a fuss after the events at Clapham Common last night is going to make people kick off more?

[peach0000]

22 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

Am I alone in thinking that the 'The police, crime, sentencing and courts bill' that the government is going to try to get through the commons tomorrow and is causing even more of a fuss after the events at Clapham Common last night is going to make people kick off more?

Probably. I think it's asking for trouble. From what I've read about the bill it sounds a bit extreme. I mean it's going to give the police powers to stop protests if they deem them to risk being noisy. Also it will make the sentence for something like tagging a statue worse than a lot of sexual offences. I don't think a lot of people will sit down and take it especially with all that has gone on in the last few days.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, peach0000 said:

Full article if anyone is interested. Lets hope his opinions have changed!

Remarkable reading the Dunblane massacre described as a "moment of madness" as if Thomas Hamilton was an erratic goalkeeper who'd handled the ball outside his area. "What is the point of banning handguns?" ****ing hell.

[when_you're_smiling]

16 minutes ago, peach0000 said:

Probably. I think it's asking for trouble. From what I've read about the bill it sounds a bit extreme. I mean it's going to give the police powers to stop protests if they deem them to risk being noisy. Also it will make the sentence for something like tagging a statue worse than a lot of sexual offences. I don't think a lot of people will sit down and take it especially with all that has gone on in the last few days.

I think the actual wording has been changed to include if a group cause others ‘annoyance’ which is ridiculously vague and dangerous. That wording could be applied to anything.

[peach0000]

3 minutes ago, when_you're_smiling said:

I think the actual wording has been changed to include if a group cause others ‘annoyance’ which is ridiculously vague and dangerous. That wording could be applied to anything.

Yeah that's the main issue. The seem to of worded it so they can just block any protests they don't agree with. It's something the UK govt was very vocal about when Putin did similar! 

[FerrisBueller]

7 hours ago, I am Rod Hull said:

Two local Labour parties have been suspended after an allegation of electoral fraud was made to police. The East Ham and West Ham Labour branches based in Newham, east London, are now facing an investigation by the party.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/12/labour-suspends-east-ham-and-west-ham-constituency-parties

 

There`s a surprise.

A frequent former poster of the politics thread once told me that electoral fraud happens all the time and it’s basically not an issue... 

[Bellend Sebastian]

2 hours ago, peach0000 said:

Probably. I think it's asking for trouble. From what I've read about the bill it sounds a bit extreme. I mean it's going to give the police powers to stop protests if they deem them to risk being noisy. Also it will make the sentence for something like tagging a statue worse than a lot of sexual offences. I don't think a lot of people will sit down and take it especially with all that has gone on in the last few days.

It's not as if the police or the courts have got the capacity to deal with people taking to the streets in any numbers. Talking tough is all very well but you've got to have the resources to back it up.

 

Instead of scaring folk into compliance I wonder if this might have the opposite effect - it just seems provocative to me, and likely to provoke protests in itself, which seems a bit counter-intuitive.

 

A bit of low level kicking off is a good opportunity for governments to be seen to be getting tough and restoring order, as well as looking exciting on telly, and helpful for undermining a movement (look how TERRIBLY these environmentalists/anti-capitalists/black folk are behaving, their arguments must surely be of no value) but losing control of the streets is another matter entirely

[CosbehFox]

18 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Labour close gap to six points in another poll

 

 

Be a double figures lead if Labour abstain from the Policing Bill. Fcuking madness by Starmer 

[Kopfkino]

2 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Be a double figures lead if Labour abstain from the Policing Bill. Fcuking madness by Starmer 

It’s actually a good bit of politics, no? It’s a 360 page bill that includes far more than the stuff about protests that’s generating all the noise. Vote against it and he gives the ammunition for the Conservatives to say that Labour is voting against tougher sentences for child murderers or something about automatic release for terrorists idk.

[Carl the Llama]

If you can't make much noise at a protest it significantly reduces your options for protesting peacefully and effectively.  This should be obvious and concerning to everybody even if you think the status quo is presently favourable to you.

[Dunge]

“(What do we want??)”

 

“We can’t hear you.”

 

“(When do we want it??)”

 

“What?”

Edited 15 March 2021 by Dunge

[Bellend Sebastian]

I'm not putting a link to a story in the Mail but even they're reporting it as a shit idea

[CosbehFox]

8 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

It’s actually a good bit of politics, no? It’s a 360 page bill that includes far more than the stuff about protests that’s generating all the noise. Vote against it and he gives the ammunition for the Conservatives to say that Labour is voting against tougher sentences for child murderers or something about automatic release for terrorists idk.

Personally disagree 

 

Whether you agree with the Bill or not the image of abstaining adds to the ‘no opposition’ vibe ongoing. Tories are going to get it through regardless. 

[Voll Blau]

12 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Be a double figures lead if Labour abstain from the Policing Bill. Fcuking madness by Starmer 

Lammy announced yesterday they'd be voting against it, thankfully. Concerning that was ever in doubt though.

[Alf Bentley]

A bit inconvenient for Labour, this...... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-56416603

 

"Hartlepool Labour MP Mike Hill has resigned "with immediate effect", prompting a by-election. 

Mr. Hill was due to face an employment tribunal later this year into claims of "sexual harassment and victimisation". He has denied the allegations."

 

A "red wall" seat that Labour held in 2019 with only 38% of the vote v. 29% for the Tories and 26% for the Brexit Party (Richard Tice).

Likely that the Tories would have taken it in 2019 without Tice, I'd imagine.

 

The May elections are already looking tricky for Starmer, given the vaccination boost for the Tories.....lose this seat to the Tories and he'll face plenty of flak..

[Sharpe's Fox]

6 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

A bit inconvenient for Labour, this...... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-56416603

 

"Hartlepool Labour MP Mike Hill has resigned "with immediate effect", prompting a by-election. 

Mr. Hill was due to face an employment tribunal later this year into claims of "sexual harassment and victimisation". He has denied the allegations."

 

A "red wall" seat that Labour held in 2019 with only 38% of the vote v. 29% for the Tories and 26% for the Brexit Party (Richard Tice).

Likely that the Tories would have taken it in 2019 without Tice, I'd imagine.

 

The May elections are already looking tricky for Starmer, given the vaccination boost for the Tories.....lose this seat to the Tories and he'll face plenty of flak..

Starmer and the people around him are about to get a reality check that just not being Jeremy Corbyn and having a few flags around can’t con working class people into voting for Labour. 

[Alf Bentley]

22 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Starmer and the people around him are about to get a reality check that just not being Jeremy Corbyn and having a few flags around can’t con working class people into voting for Labour. 

 

Control your excitement, man, the prospect of the Tories defeating the hated Blairite/Red Tory enemy is causing you to drool all over your copy of The Socialist. 

 

Perhaps Corbyn should stand as an independent candidate? The working class people are bound to rally to him like they did in 2019, aren't they? Or maybe we're looking at a first Socialist Party MP? 

 

Still, what does the political power to effect social change matter? The important thing is to avoid all compromise so that, when the Tories win and continue their grim rule, you can look yourself in the mirror and say "I am a man of principle". 

 

p.s. I do agree that not being Corbyn and having a few flags isn't enough - but nor is being Corbyn and having a long utopian wishlist, either. The flags are cringeworthy & Starmer hasn't produced an inspiring centre-left vision/platform yet, but it's early days.... 

[Sharpe's Fox]

23 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Control your excitement, man, the prospect of the Tories defeating the hated Blairite/Red Tory enemy is causing you to drool all over your copy of The Socialist. 

 

Perhaps Corbyn should stand as an independent candidate? The working class people are bound to rally to him like they did in 2019, aren't they? Or maybe we're looking at a first Socialist Party MP? 

 

Still, what does the political power to effect social change matter? The important thing is to avoid all compromise so that, when the Tories win and continue their grim rule, you can look yourself in the mirror and say "I am a man of principle". 

 

p.s. I do agree that not being Corbyn and having a few flags isn't enough - but nor is being Corbyn and having a long utopian wishlist, either. The flags are cringeworthy & Starmer hasn't produced an inspiring centre-left vision/platform yet, but it's early days.... 

You made plenty of personal assumptions and inserted lots of hyperbole just to agree with me in a roundabout sort of way. 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Latest poll

Not good for Keith again

 

 

[Dunge]

Interesting that there’s a by-election coming up in Hartlepool. I understand that Labour’s win over the Tories there at the GE was under 4,000 votes.

 

The question to me is: What will the left of the Labour Party do here? Will it be a united campaign? Or on the other hand, would the Labour left secretly see an opportunity to undermine Starmer without widespread damage by seeing a Tory victory?

 

Or, on the third hand*, would the voters of Hartlepool not be concerned by such matters and vote for who they wanted regardless?

 

 

*Anatomical correctness granted exception from metaphor.

[Sharpe's Fox]

5 minutes ago, Dunge said:

Or on the other hand, would the Labour left secretly see an opportunity to undermine Starmer without widespread damage by seeing a Tory victory?

I love seeing this sort of stuff when there is documented, empirical evidence of the Labour Right embedded in party structures working against the party in a factional way to lose an election, and then were in mourning with eachother when it didn't go as badly as they wanted. Of course, if young people or people on the left don't bother to vote in a by-election it's even worse.

[Dunge]

3 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

I love seeing this sort of stuff when there is documented, empirical evidence of the Labour Right embedded in party structures working against the party in a factional way to lose an election, and then were in mourning with eachother when it didn't go as badly as they wanted. Of course, if young people or people on the left don't bother to vote in a by-election it's even worse.

Is that a Yes or a No then? ;-)

[Sharpe's Fox]

Just now, Dunge said:

Is that a Yes or a No then? ;-)

We might as well view Ben the 20 year old Geography undergraduate as a Cuban sleeper agent right now.