Coronavirus Thread

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66424582

 

A grieving mother and her lawyer have been targeted by an extreme campaign of abuse after suing a conspiracy theory newspaper which falsely claimed her son died from a Covid vaccine.

The Irish Light repeatedly abused Edel Campbell online and its supporters have threatened her lawyer with "execution".

Conspiracy theorists worldwide have used dozens of tragic deaths to spread vaccine misinformation.

 

The dark side of the internet-based democratic talking shop.

[SpacedX]

On 28/07/2023 at 15:41, simFox said:

If I had Corona virus and you sampled my cat, you would likely pick up a trace. I can't believe you've quoted Kristine Anderson's paper! It's not like he hasn't got a bias or anything.

 

Possibly, but studies suggest that a progenitor of SARS-CoV-2 probably originated in bats and how it passed from bats to people is not clear. Virologists suspect an intermediate host was involved, but the lack of conclusive evidence has led to speculation that the virus could have instead leaked accidentally from the WIV. As explained, the analysis, provides evidence supporting the hypothesis that SARS-CoV-2 spilled over from animals to humans at the market or possibly before. The majority of the SARS-CoV-2-positive samples and most of the samples containing wild-animal DNA were found in the same area, which is consistent with the hypothesis that the virus originated from animals. A high proportion of positive swabs from the eastern section of the market contained human DNA which indicates that there was some human-to-human transmission at the market in early 2020. In one sample from a cart used in the transport of cages, the researchers found material that matched the raccoon-dog genome, and very little that matched the human genome. Therefore, the most logical hypothesis is that raccoon dogs were infected by SARS-CoV-2 and shed the virus.

 

These data do not provide a definitive answer to the question of how the pandemic began, but every piece of data is important in moving us closer to that answer.

 

On 28/07/2023 at 15:41, simFox said:

 I can't believe you've quoted Kristine Anderson's paper! It's not like he hasn't got a bias or anything.

It's Kristian, not Kristine, and it isn't his paper  he is simply one of the co-authors. As I understand it, Florence Débarre was the Principle Investigator. And what "bias" would that be?

 

And on the subject of bias, would you like to discuss Alina Chan in more detail or perhaps the "books" that you recommended but failed to name?

 

On 28/07/2023 at 15:41, simFox said:

Finding sampled that were on animals that were sold on the market is virtually meaningless. 

On the contrary, because the findings were collected in early 2020 they hold immense value. This does not offer direct evidence, but data that is a vital piece of the puzzle. To emphasise again, a lab leak is also a possibility, but there is zero evidence in support of this.

 

On 28/07/2023 at 15:41, simFox said:

It wasn't found in the wet market or on any of the animals in the wet market. There was no trace. 

It was found in the Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, that's the entire point. 

 

On 28/07/2023 at 15:41, simFox said:

If it was there it would be be like catching a murderer with a smoking gun.

 

Nope, because it could have been brought in, but it was there. 

 

On 28/07/2023 at 15:41, simFox said:

Furin clevege sites don't just appear in a NOVEL coronavirus. It was genetically manipulated, even the lying cluster of scientists themselves who released that paper in the Lancet have since had more emails released said so. Beyond what was initially released. Maybe see what was said.

Nonsense. Furin cleavage is critical to many viral diseases since Furin is a ubiquitously expressed protease, natural occurrence of the site in SARS-CoV-2 is highly possible. Furin cleavage sites have occurred independently multiple times in the evolution of the coronavirus family, supporting the natural occurring hypothesis of SARS-CoV-2. Your statement is completely and utterly false.

 

This is what the science tells us. Interesting that you are so quick to brand certain  'scientists' as "liars" and allude to an agenda, yet appeal to authority when it suits your narrative. 

 

On 28/07/2023 at 15:41, simFox said:

It will all come out in the end. Just follow the money. 

Any more dumb conspiratorial clichés?

 

Last time I did that it lead to Alex Jones' 2.5 million estate and Marjorie Taylor Greene's white nationalist far right lobbyists. 

 

On 28/07/2023 at 15:41, simFox said:

Fauci should be in prison.

And why's that?

 

Also, could you name these books and the authors that you swear by? Thank you. 

[Daggers]

Prevent should be extended to include deluded C19 deniers.

[Lionator]

Association of COVID-19 with short- and long-term risk of cardiovascular disease and mortality: a prospective cohort in UK Biobank | Cardiovascular Research | Oxford Academic (oup.com)

 

Probably not the vaccine causing increased heart attacks. 

Edited 7 August 2023 by Lionator

[SpacedX]

13 hours ago, leicsmac said:

The dark side of the internet-based democratic talking shop.

Conspiracy theories, and the mental contortions of those simple-minded folk who embrace them, while risible and absurd, nevertheless tell us a great deal about the manner in which human cognition works and how its flaws often manifest. When we step back from the empty-headed babble promoted by conspiracy theorists and look instead at the structural dynamics we see that conspiracy theories are in fact very similar to religious mythologies. Both offer simplistic accounts to explain large-scale complex phenomenon that exceed the capacity of the average human brain to comprehend; both are internally incoherent, but these incoherencies are invisible to believers; both claim to offer "a higher truth". And, of course, both conspiracy theories and  superstition tend to appeal most strongly to cerebrally challenged low achieving individuals for whom such beliefs offer the illusion of purpose and "being special." As such, it's a psychological phenomenon worthy of study despite its inherent Keystone Kops nature.
 

It seems to start with their believing that "the Government", NASA, scientists, teachers, and other powerful agencies in their lives [insert here], have been lying to them all the time, all their lives, for reasons that they cannot enunciate, and this general feeling that "something is wrong here" permeates their world view. Charlatans on the internet capture these simple souls and sell them beliefs such as Moon landing denial, 9/11 'truth', flat Earth, antivaxx and sundry other crap, usually for the pursuit profit. They don't give two shits how dangerous their garbage is becoming, or the consequences of their fraud,. The target marker is stupidity and adherents to these belief systems are impervious to evidence to the contrary, and prefer the company of like minded folk to that of people who try to inform them that they distrust. Endless repetition of questions, followed by denial or avoidance of the responses addressing the questions, seems to be a feature of this in addition of the complete absence of knowledge and understanding of the subject that they claim overnight armchair authority over.

 

Some academics that are qualitatively (and qualitatively) studying conspiratorial beliefs have encouragingly found that they are in fact not growing, just holding stable to a minority of the population who also, sadly, correlate often with lower income and lower academic achievements. However, media reporting on them is very popular, because people like news about nutters and fringe-dwellers, leading to the impression that the subculture is growing. About 12% of the US population believe the moon landings are faked, compared to 10% that think the Earth is flat, (the two are often related), 9% that think vaccines implant microchips and 25% that believe the assassination of JFK was a staged plot. I agree with you, that further studies on opinion and how minds change also show that direct confrontation and argument is by far the worst way to go about changing minds, and that conversational inquiry about how the beliefs were formed, and how confident they were in those beliefs, was far more effective in getting people to reflect and review their beliefs. So again, you I commend your patience 'Mac. However that takes a time, tolerance and reserves that many, probably including myself lack. Particularly when its the same social media generated falsities and misinformation mindlessly consumed and regurgitated over and over and over again by people lacking the will or the critical faculty to independently verify it for themselves.

 

Finally, as previously alluded to, the embracing of a conspiratorial narrative often helps loners to find a tribe in which they are welcomed. That social, tribal belonging is a very strong driver, and the fear of rejection or estrangement from a group that welcomed and accepted them is incredibly powerful. I'm sure you are aware of the frequent consequences when flat earthers or 9/11 'truthers' publicly renounce their views - it's not pretty. 

[Greg2607]

2 hours ago, Lionator said:

Association of COVID-19 with short- and long-term risk of cardiovascular disease and mortality: a prospective cohort in UK Biobank | Cardiovascular Research | Oxford Academic (oup.com)

 

Probably not the vaccine causing increased heart attacks. 

Can't say whether it was vaccine related or not....  but I caught Covid in June 2022, after having had 3 vaccines with zero immediate side effects...  Whilst I had Covid I developed Myocarditis and woke up one night very much convinced I was having a heart attack (turns out I wasn't) but it left me with an irregular heart beat for about 6 months after...  everything is fine and back to normal now, but I relate it much more to having had Covid, rather than having had the vaccines. 

[st albans fox]

Conspiracy theorists are just sad ‘nutters’

sorry to be blunt but that’s how it is  

 

the risk is their exploitation by those who know better but want their money (either via clicks or donations) and ultimately 5% of the population is a lot of people 

Edited 7 August 2023 by st albans fox

[Lionator]

4 hours ago, Greg2607 said:

Can't say whether it was vaccine related or not....  but I caught Covid in June 2022, after having had 3 vaccines with zero immediate side effects...  Whilst I had Covid I developed Myocarditis and woke up one night very much convinced I was having a heart attack (turns out I wasn't) but it left me with an irregular heart beat for about 6 months after...  everything is fine and back to normal now, but I relate it much more to having had Covid, rather than having had the vaccines. 

Yeah myocarditis can happen following a respiratory virus. I'd heard of cases of that before covid with the flu, it's usually harmless if it's treated early enough. Glad you're on the mend. 

[leicsmac]

11 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Conspiracy theorists are just sad ‘nutters’

sorry to be blunt but that’s how it is  

 

the risk is their exploitation by those who know better but want their money (either via clicks or donations) and ultimately 5% of the population is a lot of people 

Yeah, along with the bigger risk of that subset of population becoming big enough to shape state policy or elect leaders that do the same to please them (looking at you, Mssrs Trump and Bolsanaro).

[st albans fox]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, along with the bigger risk of that subset of population becoming big enough to shape state policy or elect leaders that do the same to please them (looking at you, Mssrs Trump and Bolsanaro).

Indeed

5% is a lot when it comes to PR governments who may have to make policy to suit that group to be in power 

 

in addition, other countries where it’s effectively a two horse race would see a 5% group as potentially key to establishing a win and therefore disproportionately pander to them rather than their hardcore base 

[leicsmac]

41 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Indeed

5% is a lot when it comes to PR governments who may have to make policy to suit that group to be in power 

 

in addition, other countries where it’s effectively a two horse race would see a 5% group as potentially key to establishing a win and therefore disproportionately pander to them rather than their hardcore base 

Exactly. And that means some very, very ill intentioned people can cast a very, very long shadow on everyone else. Which is a problem.

[st albans fox]

38 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Exactly. And that means some very, very ill intentioned people can cast a very, very long shadow on everyone else. Which is a problem.

Thing is mac

if I had a desire to become politically important (quickly) and make a few bob then this is exactly what I’d do.  

 

not to compare but look at how boris obtained power and all that comes with that - did he really believe in brexit or was it just a vehicle ??  You don’t have to actually believe something to drag along your disciples.

manipulating those who want to lap it up isn’t difficult 

 

perhaps it the modern day version of the us preachers who made fortunes over the years (and still do).  But there’s an art to doing that and you need to know your scriptures. This is way easier 

 

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Thing is mac

if I had a desire to become politically important (quickly) and make a few bob then this is exactly what I’d do.  

 

not to compare but look at how boris obtained power and all that comes with that - did he really believe in brexit or was it just a vehicle ??  You don’t have to actually believe something to drag along your disciples.

manipulating those who want to lap it up isn’t difficult 

 

perhaps it the modern day version of the us preachers who made fortunes over the years (and still do).  But there’s an art to doing that and you need to know your scriptures. This is way easier 

 

It's a pretty well read playbook, yes, because it works exactly as you describe.

 

Now knowing that, the tricky thing is knowing how to neutralise such bad actors, and more importantly, how to actually go about doing so practically.

 

[marbles]

Not to completely sidetrack, and certainly not to defend some of the nut jobs out there - but every once in a while, conspiracies end up being true.

The easiest way to stop a truth from getting out, is to discredit the person reporting it as being a conspiracy theorist.

[st albans fox]

2 hours ago, marbles said:

Not to completely sidetrack, and certainly not to defend some of the nut jobs out there - but every once in a while, conspiracies end up being true.

The easiest way to stop a truth from getting out, is to discredit the person reporting it as being a conspiracy theorist.

Go on then …….

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, marbles said:

Not to completely sidetrack, and certainly not to defend some of the nut jobs out there - but every once in a while, conspiracies end up being true.

The easiest way to stop a truth from getting out, is to discredit the person reporting it as being a conspiracy theorist.

Right. MKULTRA, COINTELPRO, Tuskegee and a lot of British involvement in South East Asia in the immediate aftermath of WWII proves sometimes conspiracies exist.

 

However, at the heart of every true conspiracy there is a person or persons seeking power or influence in some way - that's the reason such things happen. To purport conspiracies regarding Covid, similarly to other topics with broad scientific consensus, is to imply that pretty much the entire scientific corps working on the matter are acting in that way and deliberately subverting the truth for their own ends.

 

Not only is that an insult against a decent profession that people really don't get into got the money and power (newsflash: the vast majority of scientists could get much more of both doing something else with their talents, like Wall Street), it's also wildly impractical that such a large body of people would all be in on something like this on purpose with as little dissent as there has been. Conspiracies work best with as few people as is possible to make them work for the purpose of secrecy and therefore effectiveness, after all.

[MPH]

12 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Right. MKULTRA, COINTELPRO, Tuskegee and a lot of British involvement in South East Asia in the immediate aftermath of WWII proves sometimes conspiracies exist.

 

However, at the heart of every true conspiracy there is a person or persons seeking power or influence in some way - that's the reason such things happen. To purport conspiracies regarding Covid, similarly to other topics with broad scientific consensus, is to imply that pretty much the entire scientific corps working on the matter are acting in that way and deliberately subverting the truth for their own ends.

 

Not only is that an insult against a decent profession that people really don't get into got the money and power (newsflash: the vast majority of scientists could get much more of both doing something else with their talents, like Wall Street), it's also wildly impractical that such a large body of people would all be in on something like this on purpose with as little dissent as there has been. Conspiracies work best with as few people as is possible to make them work for the purpose of secrecy and therefore effectiveness, after all.

 

I reckon it’s Ant and Dec laughing into a mic…

[marbles]

3 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Go on then …….

Can’t tell if you’re wanting examples or not, so here goes…..

 

 

Roswell was not a weather balloon.

US Govt has been investigating UFOs

Project Sunshine - US govt was experimenting on the bodies of dead children.

CIA was behind the crack epidemic in the US

US govt poisoning of alcohol during prohibition 

 

and for something current….

 

Twitter actually was shadow banning

 

 

 

 

[marbles]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Right. MKULTRA, COINTELPRO, Tuskegee and a lot of British involvement in South East Asia in the immediate aftermath of WWII proves sometimes conspiracies exist.

 

However, at the heart of every true conspiracy there is a person or persons seeking power or influence in some way - that's the reason such things happen. To purport conspiracies regarding Covid, similarly to other topics with broad scientific consensus, is to imply that pretty much the entire scientific corps working on the matter are acting in that way and deliberately subverting the truth for their own ends.

 

Not only is that an insult against a decent profession that people really don't get into got the money and power (newsflash: the vast majority of scientists could get much more of both doing something else with their talents, like Wall Street), it's also wildly impractical that such a large body of people would all be in on something like this on purpose with as little dissent as there has been. Conspiracies work best with as few people as is possible to make them work for the purpose of secrecy and therefore effectiveness, after all.

Not arguing about the merit or lack of, when it comes to COVID conspiracies. 

I was simply pointing out that just because someone claims something is a "conspiracy theory" doesnt mean it should automatically be ignored. 

That sometimes, calling it a "conspiracy theory" is a way for the guilty party to discredit the truth.

 

 

[marbles]

3 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Go on then …….

Can’t tell if you’re wanting examples or not, so here goes…..

 

 

Roswell was not a weather balloon.

US Govt has been investigating UFOs

Project Sunshine - US govt was experimenting on the bodies of dead children.

CIA was behind the crack epidemic in the US

US govt poisoning of alcohol during prohibition 

 

and for something current….

 

Twitter actually was shadow banning

 

 

 

 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, marbles said:

Not arguing about the merit or lack of, when it comes to COVID conspiracies. 

I was simply pointing out that just because someone claims something is a "conspiracy theory" doesnt mean it should automatically be ignored. 

That sometimes, calling it a "conspiracy theory" is a way for the guilty party to discredit the truth.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

I hope that in this particular case we can, however, be discerning and dismiss it for the above reasons.

[st albans fox]

5 hours ago, marbles said:

Can’t tell if you’re wanting examples or not, so here goes…..

 

 

Roswell was not a weather balloon.

US Govt has been investigating UFOs

Project Sunshine - US govt was experimenting on the bodies of dead children.

CIA was behind the crack epidemic in the US

US govt poisoning of alcohol during prohibition 

 

and for something current….

 

Twitter actually was shadow banning

 

 

 

 

I’ll wait for @line-x to deal with these examples because I have a bit of a day upcoming !  My initial take is that some of these were  not conspiracy theories - govt secrecy is sometimes necessary under the cover of national security rather than being something more sinister 

 

I assume your illustrations are all in the states because that’s where you live 

 

 

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I’ll wait for @line-x to deal with these examples because I have a bit of a day upcoming !  My initial take is that some of these were  not conspiracy theories - govt secrecy is sometimes necessary under the cover of national security rather than being something more sinister 

 

I assume your illustrations are all in the states because that’s where you live 

 

 

FWIW I'll vouch for all of these being legit examples of people engaging in net negative for public interest conspiracy that was then attempted to be kept secret from that same public, and other examples exist too. And I hate the "justification" of "national security" that gets bandied about in order to cover up heinous acts - if you have to lie about your action then it likely was a shitty action you shouldn't have taken in the first place, and that goes for everyone engaging in such acts at the national level, no matter what flag they choose to hide behind.

 

That being said, being able to parse between these types of conspiracies and the ones that don't actually make any kind of sense because there's no benefit for those involved - again, like pretty much anything involving scientific consensus - is really damn important and needs to be done more often by lots more people.

[Babylon]

6 hours ago, marbles said:

Can’t tell if you’re wanting examples or not, so here goes…..

 

 

Roswell was not a weather balloon.

US Govt has been investigating UFOs

Project Sunshine - US govt was experimenting on the bodies of dead children.

CIA was behind the crack epidemic in the US

US govt poisoning of alcohol during prohibition 

 

and for something current….

 

Twitter actually was shadow banning

 

 

 

 

A broken clock is right twice a day. It's reached the point where absolutely EVERYTHING is called a conspiracy. Kids blasted to death, false flag. Terrorist attack, false flag. Deadly Virus, not real they trying to control us. 5G... and on and on and on and on. 

[SpacedX]

9 hours ago, marbles said:

Roswell was not a weather balloon.

As the event has passed from living memory into history the Roswell incident has been hugely embellished and cemented into UFO lore by the local community cashing in on its notoriety and opportunists with a product to sell.This isn't helped by a number of retired military personnel who’d been based at Roswell corroborating some elements of the crashed spacecraft narrative and adding their own details. More likely, they were telling researchers what they wanted to hear, writing themselves into the story either as a prank, or because they were seeking attention or had personal investment in it. No different to the ludicrous Maj. David Grusch's current antics. The culprit was almost certainly a high-altitude weather balloon, and had likely been carrying equipment designed to search the atmosphere for evidence of Soviet nuclear tests as part of Project Mogul.Since this hasn't been corroborated either way, so contrary to your claim it remains a conspiracy theory and has not ben unequivocally demonstrated that it was anything other than a weather balloon, nor has the fact that it wasn't been proven to be "true". 

 

9 hours ago, marbles said:

US Govt has been investigating UFOs

It has, we've known that since interest in the subject ceased and the old Air Force programme, Project Blue Book was terminated, but the AITP do amongst many other designations study UFO data? So what? What Congress really want to know is whether these unexplained sightings are are drones operated by an adversary such as Russia or China, or something else. Of course, this has stirred the global UFO community into somewhat of a frenzy, but it's hardly evidence of a longstanding program that retrieves and reverse engineers unidentified flying objects as David Grusch is currently claiming.

 

9 hours ago, marbles said:

Project Sunshine - US govt was experimenting on the bodies of dead children.

? As @st albans fox correctly points out, this wasn't at any point a conspiracy theory though and it became known publicly in the late 1950s. In terms of studying fallout, they were interested in the young, whose developing bones are more likely to accumulate Strontium 90 and therefore the highest susceptibility to radiation damage. TA call was put out for body parts and these sample cadavers were gathered from around the world often without the parents consent or knowledge. It wasn't so much "experimentation", but analysis of bone and tissue, but ethically deplorable nonetheless.