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[Guest worth_the_wait]

57 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

There is something on my mind what shocked me.  Considering south Asians, western Asians, Africans, Caribbeans are all immigrants.   The thing that stood out, and yes we could argue black migration in numbers happened to be earlier versus say the Indian subcontinent.  

 

If you look at the stats, yes all coloured immigrants have the challenge on getti g jobs etc.  The shocker was that people from the Indian subcontinent had better GCSE results and better education overall then the white population.  Thats including Pakistani and Bangladeshi who are the majority and below the white majority.  This is very critical, why has one immigration group who have come with nothing and are excelling versus another.

 

I didn't want to bring this up, this type of discussion requires some real deep reflection.

 

That's a very interesting point you raise.    And a rather difficult one too ... one of those "elephants in the room".
   
I don't know what the answer is, but waving placards and pulling down statues is certainly not going to find it.
 
It's one of those subjects that requires a calm, balanced approach to try and work out exactly what's going on.  There's no simple answer.

 

You should always be careful of any stereotyping, but I think there are some subtle cultural differences between communities.   And in terms of educational and economic advancement, it's the subtle differences that can be significant.
 
I read something the other week (sorry, can't quote exact figures) that said white men had the lowest representation at University as a % of any group.   Being blunt, it said white men are bottom of the educational pile.
 
Why is this?  Why do different groups seem to get on better than others?   I don't know.   But it's something that someone has got to delicately dig into, and try to work out why.

 

[Dr The Singh]

2 minutes ago, worth_the_wait said:

That's a very interesting point you raise.    And a rather difficult one too ... one of those "elephants in the room".
   
I don't know what the answer is, but waving placards and pulling down statues is certainly not going to find it.
 
It's one of those subjects that requires a calm, balanced approach to try and work out exactly what's going on.  There's no simple answer.

 

You should always be careful of any stereotyping, but I think there are some subtle cultural differences between communities.   And in terms of educational and economic advancement, it's the subtle differences that can be significant.
 
I read something the other week (sorry, can't quote exact figures) that said white men had the lowest representation at University as a % of any group.   Being blunt, it said white men are bottom of the educational pile.
 
Why is this?  Why do different groups seem to get on better than others?   I don't know.   But it's something that someone has got to delicately dig into, and try to work out why.

 

Totally agree my friend,  there is alot we all need to look at ourselves first.

[Dahnsouff]

6 minutes ago, worth_the_wait said:

That's a very interesting point you raise.    And a rather difficult one too ... one of those "elephants in the room".
   
I don't know what the answer is, but waving placards and pulling down statues is certainly not going to find it.
 
It's one of those subjects that requires a calm, balanced approach to try and work out exactly what's going on.  There's no simple answer.

 

You should always be careful of any stereotyping, but I think there are some subtle cultural differences between communities.   And in terms of educational and economic advancement, it's the subtle differences that can be significant.
 
I read something the other week (sorry, can't quote exact figures) that said white men had the lowest representation at University as a % of any group.   Being blunt, it said white men are bottom of the educational pile.
 
Why is this?  Why do different groups seem to get on better than others?   I don't know.   But it's something that someone has got to delicately dig into, and try to work out why.

 

This is an excellent topic, yet it feels almost forbidden, which of course, it must not be.

[January47]

And if you look at the ex Indian subcontinent there is a big difference between Hindus and Muslims and also those that came via Kenya Uganda etc.

i presume it’s due to their class and cultural background.

 

dr the Singh I don’t know if you want to answer but all the blm issues seem to be around people of African descent. People of Asian descent also suffered racism but seem to get on with it so to speak and not join in with blm type demos. Why is this

[Dr The Singh]

4 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

This is an excellent topic, yet it feels almost forbidden, which of course, it must not be.

It is, the ability for people to be self aware and understand the choices they make are huge.

 

In this country everyone has the ability or get a good education.  For free.  There are a initiatives for all to get training and apprenticeship etc.  I struggle to understand what the gaps are.

[Sly]

1 minute ago, worth_the_wait said:

That's a very interesting point you raise.    And a rather difficult one too ... one of those "elephants in the room".
   
I don't know what the answer is, but waving placards and pulling down statues is certainly not going to find it.
 
It's one of those subjects that requires a calm, balanced approach to try and work out exactly what's going on.  There's no simple answer.

 

You should always be careful of any stereotyping, but I think there are some subtle cultural differences between communities.   And in terms of educational and economic advancement, it's the subtle differences that can be significant.
 
I read something the other week (sorry, can't quote exact figures) that said white men had the lowest representation at University as a % of any group.   Being blunt, it said white men are bottom of the educational pile.
 
Why is this?  Why do different groups seem to get on better than others?   I don't know.   But it's something that someone has got to delicately dig into, and try to work out why.

 

I think it’s a cultural upbringing. 

 

People are born limitless. However not everyone has the opportunity to fulfil it.
 

Life shapes how people turn out; and such things as upbringing, discipline, values, wealth, social interactions, work ethic, health, beliefs and a little bit of luck amongst other things, all play a part.

 

Some of those things will naturally open doors to better educations and opportunities, whilst others will lead people down other paths.

I’m a white male, from South African descendent. 

I once had a boss that told me he had pressure from HR, to recruit someone into a position that ticked “certain boxes”.

 

I personally believe that when I recruit people, I look for people that are different from me. Whether than be gender, race, religion, nationality, education etc
 

Diversity is important.

It’s important, that I have people that question me, have different opinions and come from different backgrounds. My answer aren’t always the correct one and I value the experiences that others have to offer. Above all, it’s about having someone that can do the job. 

Needless to say, he got the chop and I got his job.
 

......... I draw the line at recruiting flat earthers and people pulling down 5G phone masts though.

[Dr The Singh]

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, January47 said:

And if you look at the ex Indian subcontinent there is a big difference between Hindus and Muslims and also those that came via Kenya Uganda etc.

i presume it’s due to their class and cultural background.

 

dr the Singh I don’t know if you want to answer but all the blm issues seem to be around people of African descent. People of Asian descent also suffered racism but seem to get on with it so to speak and not join in with blm type demos. Why is this

Its a really good question.  I can only speak for myself.

 

We are fully supportive of all efforts.  Sikhs have provided 'langar' to all protesting.  

 

I think for Sikhs, UK isnt the battleground, we in the UK have more rights and protection then India.

 

Average Sikh is way more affluent then the average white guy.  We are the most progressive and affluent then any immigrant community.

 

Although we wear massive turbans etc we excell, because of our warrior attitude.

 

Great Britian is the best nation in the world for immigrants, not perfect though.

 

[Milo]

10 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

It is, the ability for people to be self aware and understand the choices they make are huge.

 

In this country everyone has the ability or get a good education.  For free.  There are a initiatives for all to get training and apprenticeship etc.  I struggle to understand what the gaps are.

Something we noticed with our eldest sitting the 11 plus is the cultural make up of the kids who take it.

 

I have no idea if this is just a local anomaly where we are, or if it's replicated nationally. The vast majority of kids who sat the 11 plus here were from Asian backgrounds. (Our friends daughter got in to the local Grammar school is is one of two white kids in her class, which is hugely disproportionate to the local demographic). If this is replicated nationally, then it is clearly going to have an impact on the University places mentioned by @Sly  

 

 

[Trav Le Bleu]

All war memorials.

 

All of them.

 

All statues of soldiers.

 

Tear them down, cos you can't get more racist than killing people because they're from a different country.

 

Or is it ok if your government tells you it's ok? Or does that mean your government is racist?

 

Daily Express needs to change it's logo big time!

 

It's almost like people are on some kind of crusade!

[Dr The Singh]

11 minutes ago, Milo said:

Something we noticed with our eldest sitting the 11 plus is the cultural make up of the kids who take it.

 

I have no idea if this is just a local anomaly where we are, or if it's replicated nationally. The vast majority of kids who sat the 11 plus here were from Asian backgrounds. (Our friends daughter got in to the local Grammar school is is one of two white kids in her class, which is hugely disproportionate to the local demographic). If this is replicated nationally, then it is clearly going to have an impact on the University places mentioned by @Sly  

 

 

The people that succeed are the people that put the effort in.

 

No doubt those so called Asians will suffer with institutional racism

[Salisbury Fox]

25 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

All war memorials.

 

All of them.

 

All statues of soldiers.

 

Tear them down, cos you can't get more racist than killing people because they're from a different country.

 

Or is it ok if your government tells you it's ok? Or does that mean your government is racist?

 

Daily Express needs to change it's logo big time!

 

It's almost like people are on some kind of crusade!

I’m not sure whether I am understanding you correctly, but I assume that you don’t think we should honour our war dead? This would be irrespective of the nature of the conflict? As you point out, the military do not get to choose where they deploy or their rules of engagement that they need to abide by as they are sent there by the government that was elected by the country.

[Carl the Llama]

3 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Netflix have now removed all episodes It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia which have blackface in them.

 

For those not aware, the show is a satire about how American sitcoms are always about really wonderful people whose lives progress. In IASIP the characters are so awful and tone deaf, and get up to so much ridiculous stuff but they never face the consequences except their their lives just stagnate or get worse.

Sure, but they don't need blackface to get that point across.  Dee's latina presenter was never funny anyway so I doubt anyone will miss that character, but I do agree it feels like a missed point to remove the Lethal Weapon 5 stuff.  I'd say the joke plays out much ilke RDJ's character in Tropic Thunder and to my understanding that was never considered offensive, though I suppose in that case they had the mitigating factor of the script including a black co-star who repeatedly calls it out. 

 

Here's a weird thing though: The Gang Makes Lethal Weapon 6 is still up with Mac & Dee in their full-body blackface (s9e9, I'm watching it now).  I'll survive if it also gets removed though, there's a clear and understandable motive even if you could argue for it missing the point so I don't feel like this is a slippery slope scenario where blackface provides a launchpad for increasingly arbitrary media policing.

[Strokes]

16 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Sure, but they don't need blackface to get that point across.  Dee's latina presenter was never funny anyway so I doubt anyone will miss that character, but I do agree it feels like a missed point to remove the Lethal Weapon 5 stuff.  I'd say the joke plays out much ilke RDJ's character in Tropic Thunder and to my understanding that was never considered offensive, though I suppose in that case they had the mitigating factor of the script including a black co-star who repeatedly calls it out. 

 

Here's a weird thing though: The Gang Makes Lethal Weapon 6 is still up with Mac & Dee in their full-body blackface (s9e9, I'm watching it now).  I'll survive if it also gets removed though, there's a clear and understandable motive even if you could argue for it missing the point so I don't feel like this is a slippery slope scenario where blackface provides a launchpad for increasingly arbitrary media policing.

It’s the beginning of the end.

[Carl the Llama]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It’s the beginning of the end.

[Stuntman_Mike]

4 hours ago, DennisNedry said:

A few thoughts that I'd like a lefty to counter (not on the wind up, genuinely would appreciate a reasoned response)...

 

- You can't judge historical figures through the morality of today. Was Colston a bad man because he was a slave trader? I don't know; that depends on whether you think morality transcends time and context. He acted in a way that was acceptable for his time. The ordinary, everyday views of a typical liberal-minded person in say, 1750, would make Trump look like a Guardianista on acid. Does that mean every human alive in 1750 was "evil"? *Note, I wouldn't 'celebrate' Colston in a public statue, I'd move it to a museum.

 

- Why are "we", in the West, being asked to condemn our history in a way that no other nation is being asked to? I'm not trying to belittle the evils of transatlantic slavery at all, but anybody with an interest in history knows that history is filled with horror, suffering, cruelty etc, committed by all races and nations from the beginning of recorded history up to today. There's an estimated 40 million slaves in the world today! I find the 'white people bad' narrative so simplistic, disingenuous and tiresome. I think we as Great Britain have a lot to be proud of in our past too, but that's another discussion.

 

- In terms of police statistics (in the UK) - why are the discrepancies in arrests, stop & search etc painted entirely as police prejudice? I'm sure this IS part of the problem, but then black people commit more crime, so it's hardly surprising they get arrested more often! Of course, poverty and inequality is a driver of this discrepancy that needs addressing, but so is 'black culture' - fatherless homes and a glorification of violence and anti-establishment feeling (fuk da police) being notable examples. Even Barack Obama acknowledges this, so why are so many in complete denial about it?

Great points. 

 

There's everyday things we are all doing now that are legal but could be frowned upon and illegal in a few hundred years.

 

That doesn't make us bad people. 

 

We learn and we change over time. 

 

[Pliskin]

3 hours ago, worth_the_wait said:

That's a very interesting point you raise.    And a rather difficult one too ... one of those "elephants in the room".
   
I don't know what the answer is, but waving placards and pulling down statues is certainly not going to find it.
 
It's one of those subjects that requires a calm, balanced approach to try and work out exactly what's going on.  There's no simple answer.

 

You should always be careful of any stereotyping, but I think there are some subtle cultural differences between communities.   And in terms of educational and economic advancement, it's the subtle differences that can be significant.
 
I read something the other week (sorry, can't quote exact figures) that said white men had the lowest representation at University as a % of any group.   Being blunt, it said white men are bottom of the educational pile.
 
Why is this?  Why do different groups seem to get on better than others?   I don't know.   But it's something that someone has got to delicately dig into, and try to work out why.

 

What a post, potted the black and some.

 

Completely and utterly agree. And I’ll add that modern day society is far too complex to really put a label on things. America is a bit more straight forward when it comes to claims of institutional racism, but then again they are a huge country, so the stats have further to travel. 
 

Britain I’d say is hugely complicated, it is a mixing pot of everything, and as you have pointed out there are stats that favour certain groups and stats that do not. It is very clear that there is some delicate work to be done going forward, more than anyone probably protesting thinks. 

[Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo]

2 hours ago, Stuntman_Mike said:

Great points. 

 

There's everyday things we are all doing now that are legal but could be frowned upon and illegal in a few hundred years.

 

That doesn't make us bad people. 

 

We learn and we change over time. 

 

Eating meat. Bet any money in 100 years that'll be a thing of the past, and petrol-burning and meat consumption will be looked at with utter disgust in the history books

[Pliskin]

6 minutes ago, Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo said:

Eating meat. Bet any money in 100 years that'll be a thing of the past, and petrol-burning and meat consumption will be looked at with utter disgust in the history books

Statues of Morrissey spread about the country is a terrifying thought. 

[urban.spaceman]

[SpacedX]

19 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

The people that succeed are the people that put the effort in.

 

No doubt those so called Asians will suffer with institutional racism

Some of the most blatant racisim in the workplace that I have witnessed in both Leicester and London has been from Indians in positions of authority (or otherwise), directed at Pakistanis. Of course, I do accept that it goes in the other way too, but the latter seems far more prevalent. 

 

In respect of institutional racism towards the so called 'Asian' UK community, I find it abhorrent and unfathomable that it is still even necessary to have this conversation in the 21st century. I am confident that attitudes are changing but you are absolutely correct, this is still very real - employment figures alone bear this out. 

[Dr The Singh]

Rac

4 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Some of the most blatant racisim in the workplace that I have witnessed in both Leicester and London has been from Indians in positions of authority (or otherwise), directed at Pakistanis. Of course, I do accept that it goes in the other way too, but the latter seems far more prevalent. 

 

In respect of institutional racism towards the so called 'Asian' UK community, I find it abhorrent and unfathomable that it is still even necessary to have this conversation in the 21st century. I am confident that attitudes are changing but you are absolutely correct, this is still very real - employment figures alone bear this out. 

Racism in south Asian cultures is huge, we don't understand how lucky we are in Britain.

[SpacedX]

4 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

Racism in south Asian cultures is huge, we don't understand how lucky we are in Britain.

Agree.