Cancel Culture

[nnfox]

It's quite telling that in America, protests are about the current state of racial police brutality.  George Floyd and Eric Garner are a couple of examples but there are numerous other recent examples, seemingly every month there is a new video over there of some kind of overly aggressive policing, not necessarily resulting in death, but it makes it easy to make a point.

 

By contrast, over here, the protests are focusing on 40 year old TV shows and historical figures from centuries ago.

 

Looking to take any positive at the moment, I think we have actually come a long way.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, ealingfox said:

 

But in many cases increasing the diversity of casting on historical programming is actually increasing the historical accuracy, people just dont realise that either because of ignorance or because of the conditioning that stems from decades of whitewashing.

 

Look at how the usual suspects burst into tears because ONE black person appears in the Tube scene in Darkest Hour, at a time when thousands of black people lived in London. This was dismissed as virtue-signalling and all that bollocks despite being a more accurate depiction than if everyone had been white.

 

I've learned something from looking into that.

 

I was aware that there had been smallish numbers of black people in Britain dating back centuries, particularly in port cities. I was also aware that a lot of black people served in the UK & US forces during WW2, but had imagined them being off at the warfront. I'd somehow assumed the big influx started with post-WW2 immigration. That's not entirely wrong, but there clearly was a big temporary influx DURING WW2, as well, supporting your point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British_people

 

"World War II marked another period of growth for the black communities in London, Liverpool and elsewhere in Britain. Many blacks from the Caribbean and West Africa arrived in small groups as wartime workers, merchant seamen, and servicemen from the army, navy, and air forces. For example, in February 1941, 345 West Indians came to work in factories in and around Liverpool, making munitions. By the end of 1943 there were 3,312 African-American GIs based near Liverpool. The black population in the summer of 1944 was estimated at 150,000, mostly black GIs from America. However, by 1948 the black population was estimated to have been less than 20,000 and did not reach the previous peak of 1944 until 1958".

[davieG]

10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I've learned something from looking into that.

 

I was aware that there had been smallish numbers of black people in Britain dating back centuries, particularly in port cities. I was also aware that a lot of black people served in the UK & US forces during WW2, but had imagined them being off at the warfront. I'd somehow assumed the big influx started with post-WW2 immigration. That's not entirely wrong, but there clearly was a big temporary influx DURING WW2, as well, supporting your point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British_people

 

"World War II marked another period of growth for the black communities in London, Liverpool and elsewhere in Britain. Many blacks from the Caribbean and West Africa arrived in small groups as wartime workers, merchant seamen, and servicemen from the army, navy, and air forces. For example, in February 1941, 345 West Indians came to work in factories in and around Liverpool, making munitions. By the end of 1943 there were 3,312 African-American GIs based near Liverpool. The black population in the summer of 1944 was estimated at 150,000, mostly black GIs from America. However, by 1948 the black population was estimated to have been less than 20,000 and did not reach the previous peak of 1944 until 1958".

This was my first contact with Black people 1958 - Sam and Joe. There may have been more Black people in Leicester at that time but I wasn't aware of it.

 

[Lionator]

This is actually quite a big moment for the 'left' in the UK. It's the time to move past identity politics. Ricky Gervais is a Labour man but he always gets the right tone when it comes to offence and I think the likes of Starmer need to be pragmatic about this as tories will always use it as a bat to strike the left with. Those 30 BAME MP's going toe to toe with Patel in a 'my racist experience is more legitimate than yours' is not the chord that needs striking here.

 

We need the left to promote education and not the censorship of these tv programmes/statues (within reason) because it just emboldens the right. 

[Alf Bentley]

5 hours ago, ealingfox said:

 

What in the plot makes that explicit? It's not like the character gets called out or gets some kind of comeuppance. All you see is him using abusive language and then there's canned laughter. I'm aware it was ok at the time and I've said as much in each of my posts on the matter.

 

It's not being removed from history. At most, the version that is shown on TV will have it edited out. If you're absolutely desperate to laugh at someone using offensive language towards minority groups you'll still be able to.

 

2 hours ago, Captain... said:

The racist might be a figure of fun, but instead of being called out for being a racist he is pandered to and placated.

 

I'm all for satire but that particular one just doesn't work any more by modern standards. 

 

I'm curious and a bit concerned by comments like these.

 

Surely audiences don't need every character who expresses a racist view to be "called out" or get some "comeuppance"? 

That sounds like a return to the B-Movie days of 70+ years ago when cowboy films featured goodies in white hats and baddies in black hats, who inevitably came to a bad ending.

 

I'm old enough to have seen Fawlty Towers when it first screened, as a teenager in the 1970s.

I'm confident that 99% of viewers back then would have seen the Major as, not a nasty chap, but a silly, crusty old duffer with outdated views.

Likewise, Fawlty himself would've been universally seen as a ridiculous maniac and a transparently calculating, obsequiously dishonest and selfish bloke with a short fuse....who happened to make for hilarious viewing.

 

No way was either character being "pandered to" or in need of "comeuppance". The 1970s audience was laughing at them as ridiculous if human characters already.

It's a sad state of affairs if a modern audience has to be told "this is a goody, you can applaud him.....this is a baddy, look at how horrible he is and what a bad end he's inevitably come to". I hope that's not the case.

 

For context, it's worth remembering that, although sitcoms were nothing new, Cleese was still a cutting-edge young comedian back then - fresh from Monty Python, which was seen as radically modern & for the young generation.

I very much doubt many viewers were sympathising with views expressed by Fawlty or the Major. If anything, older more conservative viewers might have found the depiction of the Major disrespectful to the older generation. 

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Whilst not condoning his racist language, which always made me uneasy, I always found The Major to be quite a sympathetic and sad character because he clearly has dementia.

 

That's a decent point, too - and a sign of nuance in the programme.

 

In real life, it's simply not true that all people with racist or other dodgy views are vicious, offensive characters worthy of condemnation.

Sometimes people hold dodgy views or use questionable language out of ignorance or because their views were formed in a bygone era and haven't been updated.

It would be good if they adapted and is fair enough for people to gently point that out to them - but someone can be a sympathetic person while still holding questionable, even racist views.

 

I've quoted this before, so sorry to anyone who remembers....

My sister-in-law is black and 20+ years ago she went with my brother and parents to the West of Ireland - very rural, remote and 100% white (then).

They were in a bar and some old local bloke was looking at her, then shuffled over and said "You blackies are very welcome here".

She was touched more than offended, despite his "inappropriate" language. She knew he'd possibly never seen a black person before and was trying to be welcoming - indeed was possibly concerned that other people might not be welcoming.

[PAULCFC]

Big fan of Fawlty Towers and have the box set,the scene that has caused all this is edited out on that.But just went to watch it for the first time in ages on youtube.And you can see even Basil can't believe what the major is saying!To be honest my two kids love it as well,but it's probably better off without that in it and if you want to see it you have the option.

[ealingfox]

15 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

I'm curious and a bit concerned by comments like these.

 

Surely audiences don't need every character who expresses a racist view to be "called out" or get some "comeuppance"? 

That sounds like a return to the B-Movie days of 70+ years ago when cowboy films featured goodies in white hats and baddies in black hats, who inevitably came to a bad ending.

 

I'm old enough to have seen Fawlty Towers when it first screened, as a teenager in the 1970s.

I'm confident that 99% of viewers back then would have seen the Major as, not a nasty chap, but a silly, crusty old duffer with outdated views.

Likewise, Fawlty himself would've been universally seen as a ridiculous maniac and a transparently calculating, obsequiously dishonest and selfish bloke with a short fuse....who happened to make for hilarious viewing.

 

No way was either character being "pandered to" or in need of "comeuppance". The 1970s audience was laughing at them as ridiculous if human characters already.

It's a sad state of affairs if a modern audience has to be told "this is a goody, you can applaud him.....this is a baddy, look at how horrible he is and what a bad end he's inevitably come to". I hope that's not the case.

 

For context, it's worth remembering that, although sitcoms were nothing new, Cleese was still a cutting-edge young comedian back then - fresh from Monty Python, which was seen as radically modern & for the young generation.

I very much doubt many viewers were sympathising with views expressed by Fawlty or the Major. If anything, older more conservative viewers might have found the depiction of the Major disrespectful to the older generation. 

 

I'm not suggesting that at all, I just don't think it's as cut and dry as you're making out and don't share the confidence of your third paragraph. Even then, one can deduce the intended depiction of the characters without also realising the implications of repeating their choices of words.

 

I would suggest that a person is more likely to repeat these words if they've heard them spoken on television, regardless of the context, than if they hadn't in the first place. But maybe I'm wrong.

[Alf Bentley]

58 minutes ago, davieG said:

This was my first contact with Black people 1958 - Sam and Joe. There may have been more Black people in Leicester at that time but I wasn't aware of it.

 

 

Which boy is you, Davie? 

 

Admittedly, I grew up in Kent and not Leicester, but I don't think that I met or spoke to a black person until I was 18 (1980).

There were 2 Asian lads in my year at school. Their names were Chris and Harold. 

 

I remember when we drove through London en route to my grandparents up north (early 70s), as kids my brother and I would look out for any Sikhs walking on the pavements as they looked so different and exotic to us (nothing nasty about it).

[davieG]

13 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Which boy is you, Davie? 

 

Admittedly, I grew up in Kent and not Leicester, but I don't think that I met or spoke to a black person until I was 18 (1980).

There were 2 Asian lads in my year at school. Their names were Chris and Harold. 

 

I remember when we drove through London en route to my grandparents up north (early 70s), as kids my brother and I would look out for any Sikhs walking on the pavements as they looked so different and exotic to us (nothing nasty about it).

The wide eyed one middle row 2nd in from the right looking at the picture.

 

My daughter lives in Witney (Camerons old constituency) and I rarely see any Black or Asian people when I visit. 

[Alf Bentley]

15 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

I'm not suggesting that at all, I just don't think it's as cut and dry as you're making out and don't share the confidence of your third paragraph. Even then, one can deduce the intended depiction of the characters without also realising the implications of repeating their choices of words.

 

I would suggest that a person is more likely to repeat these words if they've heard them spoken on television, regardless of the context, than if they hadn't in the first place. But maybe I'm wrong.

 

 

Not sure if your lack of confidence relates to 1970s viewers or current day (and I've no idea what age you are)?

 

I might be wrong, but am very confident that the 70s audience would have seen the Major as a harmless crusty old duffer with outdated views of a known kind (ex-military) - and Fawlty as a hilarious maniac you wouldn't want to know in real life.

My recollection is that the racist words in question were in widespread use then - by active racists, of course, but also - and mainly - by people who were just ignorant or fearful & might never have met any black people.

 

I take your point that people now might start copying the language, without realising the implications. But surely only people who were already racists or exceptionally stupid? Surely nobody now would see Fawlty or the Major as a role model - and even ignorant schoolkids would use words from their own era, not from an old TV programme from their grandparents' era? 

 

Someone made a similar point about the Pogues song: that occasionally homophobes in pubs have been known to sing along to the "you scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy......." line while pointing at gay people in there.

I cannot imagine that happens often but again it suggests those people are either extraordinarily stupid or already have homophobic attitudes.....in turn that makes the obvious point that removing abusive words won't eliminate abusive attitudes, which is the main thing we want to do, surely? Dodgy attitudes will always be with us, unfortunately, but the way to limiting them is through wider education and integration, not censoring or preventing access to bad words or all depictions of questionable views.

 

I should stress that I'm not talking about programmes or songs that glorify or promote racist or homophobic attitudes. No mainstream media should be doing that - leave it to the bigots themselves and charge them with promoting hatred, if applicable.

[urban.spaceman]

 

 

 

 

[Captain...]

6 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

 

But Basil Fawlty isn't an admirable character and its not set in 2020.

 

He's a nasty, selfish, cowardly bigot himself and its set in times where racism was more commonly open. Why change or hide that depiction? 

 

It's like the current trend of making sure there's better diversity in casting when making basically any production, even historical ones. If you're making some historic drama and you're casting a disproportionately high number of ethnic minority actors just to be woke in 2020, what you're ACTUALLY doing is painting racism out of history and pretending the world used to be a better place than it was. 

 

I even feel uneasy now with the BBC and Netflix in particular leading the charge in having the most racially diverse casts possible, where as many families and partnerships as possible are multi racial and nobody sees colour because everything's perfect. 

 

On the one hand its great that the industry sat up and listened when it was called out for its institutional racism but on the other hand, do you not risk hiding the the real world behind a facade of social justice that we still don't live up to? 

 

My comment was quite short and not well explained, and it has been a while since I watched Fawlty towers. I was referring to the removal of the N word in that episode. I think there is a place for racism to be portrayed in drama and comedy, but there is a limit. To liberally use a word that is universally known to be offensive without any sort of recompense is wrong and I support the removal of the N word not the character. Whilst the jokes target might be the major you can be sure some of the laughter comes from another place.

 

4 hours ago, nnfox said:

It's quite telling that in America, protests are about the current state of racial police brutality.  George Floyd and Eric Garner are a couple of examples but there are numerous other recent examples, seemingly every month there is a new video over there of some kind of overly aggressive policing, not necessarily resulting in death, but it makes it easy to make a point.

 

By contrast, over here, the protests are focusing on 40 year old TV shows and historical figures from centuries ago.

 

Looking to take any positive at the moment, I think we have actually come a long way.

The protests are not focussing on that, the protests are about the mistreatment of black people in England and the rest of the world. One part of it is slavers being commemorated with statues, the same as Confederate statues in the US, yet over here it has become the main narrative. Another part is the portrayal of black people in culture, but there was no pressure on Leigh Francis to apologise that was a realisation he came to himself. It's strange how the media is focussing on statues and culture and not talking about arrest rates of black people, stop and search rates, death rates from covid-19 etc.

 

A more cynical person than me might suggest that the media are deliberately framing the debate around "cancel culture" and stirring feelings of resentment towards the BLM movement.

[Finnegan]

2 minutes ago, Captain... said:

To liberally use a word that is universally known to be offensive without any sort of recompense is wrong and I support the removal of the N word not the character.

 

Just for context, how do you feel about Django Unchained? 

[Captain...]

3 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Just for context, how do you feel about Django Unchained? 

Wasn't a big fan of it, but it wasn't made as light entertainment it was a film deliberately meant to challenge and has a film rating to match.

 

If that episode of Fawlty towers was to come with an 18 rating and only be shown after the watershed/come with a parental lock then it can probably stay as it was intended. It would make more sense to cut any use of the N word and keep that episode along the same tone as the rest of the series, rather than have Fawlty Towers eXtreme cut for those who really want a joke about N*****s and W**s.

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Captain... said:

Wasn't a big fan of it, but it wasn't made as light entertainment it was a film deliberately meant to challenge and has a film rating to match.

 

If that episode of Fawlty towers was to come with an 18 rating and only be shown after the watershed/come with a parental lock then it can probably stay as it was intended. It would make more sense to cut any use of the N word and keep that episode along the same tone as the rest of the series, rather than have Fawlty Towers eXtreme cut for those who really want a joke about N*****s and W**s.

I had to rack my brains to think what W** was, and it took me bloody ages  (yeah, go me)

 

On the Fawlty Towers episode, we need to remember that as I’ll fitting the language seems now, it was not so when it was broadcast. As such the language is crude and distasteful if uttered now, or in this case, rewatched. However, it is a lesson on history if nought else and amusing if accepting of its period.

[Captain...]

4 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

I had to rack my brains to think what W** was, and it took me bloody ages  (yeah, go me)

 

On the Fawlty Towers episode, we need to remember that as I’ll fitting the language seems now, it was not so when it was broadcast. As such the language is crude and distasteful if uttered now, or in this case, rewatched. However, it is a lesson on history if nought else and amusing if accepting of its period.

Ok, but let's say you want to watch Fawlty Towers with your kids (when you think they are age appropriate), would you be happy for them to watch an old white man using the N word for laughs?

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, Captain... said:

Ok, but let's say you want to watch Fawlty Towers with your kids (when you think they are age appropriate), would you be happy for them to watch an old white man using the N word for laughs?

For sure! What a fantastic opportunity for a history lesson. How else will they know what the past sounded like, and how far we have come.

[davieG]

2 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Ok, but let's say you want to watch Fawlty Towers with your kids (when you think they are age appropriate), would you be happy for them to watch an old white man using the N word for laughs?

We seem to have gone the other way 4 letter type expletives, Where we had Mary Whitehouse complaining about Alf Garnet saying Bloody on TV, we now have a bombardment of the f word and its derivatives  and a fair number of c words as well in many TV programmes and movies.

 

There is now a liberal use of those words on here yet I can remember early in its existence there was a strong attempt to ban them as it was considered a lot of young kids could be posting on here.

 

Having written that I'm not even sure what point I'm  making so feel free to ignore and assume its just me having a rant

[fuchsntf]

15 minutes ago, davieG said:

We seem to have gone the other way 4 letter type expletives, Where we had Mary Whitehouse complaining about Alf Garnet saying Bloody on TV, we now have a bombardment of the f word and its derivatives  and a fair number of c words as well in many TV programmes and movies.

 

There is now a liberal use of those words on here yet I can remember early in its existence there was a strong attempt to ban them as it was considered a lot of young kids could be posting on here.

 

Having written that I'm not even sure what point I'm  making so feel free to ignore and assume its just me having a rant

you Let it all out DavieG...!!! Nothing like Reading a Good Rant.

Besides you came all the way from that wonderful London life,to civilise us Midland-Bumkins...but you Chose us...

[Captain...]

52 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

had to rack my brains to think what W** was

Missed this comment, that shows you haven't watched the widely circulated clip of the problematic 20 seconds.

 

I'd suggest watching it again, just Google Fawlty towers n word, of you are happy with that joke being included in a light entertainment show then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Dahnsouff]

5 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Missed this comment, that shows you haven't watched the widely circulated clip of the problematic 20 seconds.

 

I'd suggest watching it again, just Google Fawlty towers n word, of you are happy with that joke being included in a light entertainment show then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

History is not always agreeable to contemporary eyes  I have watched Fawlty Towers many times, and I am well aware of the scene.

[Milo]

Can I add that this thread has been excellent.

 

I'd kind of forgotten that it was possible to have an exchange of views without bile spitting rhetoric, hysterics and name calling.

 

Top work! 

 

[LiberalFox]

I always thought of Fawlty Towers as a comedy rather than as a history lesson in what racial slurs were tolerated decades ago. Guess I'm just not that cultured.

[Aus Fox]

13 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

I always thought of Fawlty Towers as a comedy rather than as a history lesson in what racial slurs were tolerated decades ago. Guess I'm just not that cultured.

Do you not think all media is a history lesson on what life was like in a certain time? 
You can watch any tv show or movie and think about how times have changed. The clothes they wear, the opinions they hold, the music, the way they speak.