Cancel Culture

[ealingfox]

5 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Why not? The major is a racist character using racist language. The show was first aired some 40 odd years ago when the language was common (and its still far too common today). 

 

What turns it from having a warning pre-airing to just being removed from history? 

 

What in the plot makes that explicit? It's not like the character gets called out or gets some kind of comeuppance. All you see is him using abusive language and then there's canned laughter. I'm aware it was ok at the time and I've said as much in each of my posts on the matter.

 

It's not being removed from history. At most, the version that is shown on TV will have it edited out. If you're absolutely desperate to laugh at someone using offensive language towards minority groups you'll still be able to.

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, RobHawk said:

I don't get it, some of my favourite comedy's banished for being racist and i'll be honest and say I don't get why. 

 

I support black lives matter, I think attitudes within the world do need to change. I thought the Colton statue being torn down was a landmark moment. 

 

But attacking comedy, freedom of expression, in a genre where their really shouldn't be any limits. The point of the demonstrations has been lost and now I'm confused about the change people were actually seeking. 

 

I thought we were looking for real life change, and instead, there's a few less comedy's on Netflix now. 

 

Way to go everyone.

Yeah, it’s almost like the movement has been hijacked.

If I wanted to trash a movement, I’d pose as one of them and do just that. Go after the things that would turn people against it and watch the rest follow the bandwagon over the cliff.

This is what is happening and as I said at the weekend, the organisers (there is someone in charge right?) should have condemned the Churchill and war memorials defacing . They’ve lost control now, the message is all but gone.....

[Aus Fox]

6 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

What in the plot makes that explicit? It's not like the character gets called out or gets some kind of comeuppance. All you see is him using abusive language and then there's canned laughter. I'm aware it was ok at the time and I've said as much in each of my posts on the matter.

 

It's not being removed from history. At most, the version that is shown on TV will have it edited out. If you're absolutely desperate to laugh at someone using offensive language towards minority groups you'll still be able to.

So are we not allowed to have any racist characters on tv shows or movies now? Do we just pretend it doesn’t exist and never mention it? 
There are many of the older generation like Major now, who use language that we don’t always think is appropriate and this needs to be acknowledged in tv shows and movies and yes at times they will need to use the offensive language to play those characters. 

Have you watched all the episodes of Faulty Towers? Do you honestly think anyone sees Major as anything but a senile racist old man? Will he inspire anyone watching to think anything he says is acceptable?

The problem we have now is the media have moved the conversation along and away from the real issue at hand.

[Innovindil]

22 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

What in the plot makes that explicit? It's not like the character gets called out or gets some kind of comeuppance. All you see is him using abusive language and then there's canned laughter. I'm aware it was ok at the time and I've said as much in each of my posts on the matter.

 

It's not being removed from history. At most, the version that is shown on TV will have it edited out. If you're absolutely desperate to laugh at someone using offensive language towards minority groups you'll still be able to.

... 

 

Ain't even gonna bother.

 

Edit:

 

Wow I really shouldn't have bothered. When tf did this happen? Only make a handful of posts a day at most ffs. 

 

 You have reached the maximum number of posts you can make per day.

 

 

Edited 12 June 2020 by Innovindil

[Alf Bentley]

11 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Why not? The major is a racist character using racist language. The show was first aired some 40 odd years ago when the language was common (and its still far too common today). 

 

What turns it from having a warning pre-airing to just being removed from history? 

 

This, a million times over! Especially the bit in bold.

 

It's years since I've seen that Fawlty Towers episode, but I do remember that the Major was depicted as a silly crusty old fogey with reactionary views. Fawlty himself was a hysterical, ridiculous character. The Germans were neutral characters.

It would have been different if the Major & Fawlty had been glorified as characters or presented as role models. They weren't. They were presented as ridiculous - and the jokes were on them & on racists, not on Germans, black people or anyone else.

 

It is different where particular races are ridiculed for laughs - or the acts of racism are glorified. That's why there IS justification for the removal of the Colston statue and similar (but NOT people mainly glorified for something else who happen to have a few skeletons in their closet, like Churchill or Gladstone - are we going to ban the Beatles because Lennon & probably some of the others did some things we might disapprove of?).

 

I had a similar argument a couple of years ago with an FB friend who wanted "Fairytale in New York" by The Pogues banned because it includes an undoubtedly homophobic line.....despite the fact that it is a line spoken by a character, a drunken old woman down on her luck in the drunk tank, arguing with her partner. Madness! Particularly when the guitarist of the Pogues was gay.

 

The logical consequence of such intolerance is that someone producing a drama about Hitler would not be able to show him using any anti-Semitic language. Think about that! 

 

More importantly, this bigoted intolerance and these attacks on free speech risk derailing a thoroughly justified cause - namely the efforts to roll back racism and make people think properly about our history.

[Dahnsouff]

9 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah, it’s almost like the movement has been hijacked.

If I wanted to trash a movement, I’d pose as one of them and do just that. Go after the things that would turn people against it and watch the rest follow the bandwagon over the cliff.

This is what is happening and as I said at the weekend, the organisers (there is someone in charge right?) should have condemned the Churchill and war memorials defacing . They’ve lost control now, the message is all but gone.....

Which to be frank, is a travesty, as I do not see how you get this movement back onto the rails without another George Floyd, which no-one wants to see.

[Dahnsouff]

Spot on @Alf Bentley (And you @Innovindil )

Fawlty Towers is a parody of its main characters, and their archetypal analogues in society. They are not some messianic representations of idealised behaviours ffs. 

In the episode in question, it is the German characters that provide the normality, not Basil.

[ealingfox]

3 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

... 

 

Ain't even gonna bother. 

 

By the way, a warning pre-airing is literally cited as one of the options UKTV are considering. It's the temporary withdrawal that I am justifying. What they do with it afterwards is for them to decide and you'd hope they undertake appropriate consultation. This faux-outrage about erasing of history is still premature anyway.

 

7 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

So are we not allowed to have any racist characters on tv shows or movies now? Do we just pretend it doesn’t exist and never mention it? 
There are many of the older generation like Major now, who use language that we don’t always think is appropriate and this needs to be acknowledged in tv shows and movies and yes at times they will need to use the offensive language to play those characters. 

Have you watched all the episodes of Faulty Towers? Do you honestly think anyone sees Major as anything but a senile racist old man? Will he inspire anyone watching to think anything he says is acceptable?

The problem we have now is the media have moved the conversation along and away from the real issue at hand.

 

That isn't what I said but nice strawman.

 

I have indeed seen every episode of Fawlty Towers. And yes people do see things differently, I'm not going to go over every possible interpretation someone of any background might have of it. You've given your interpretation but nobody elses.

 

Personally I dont think its unreasonable to argue that seeing someone casually and jovially using those racial slurs on TV is more likely to see people repeat them than if they werent used on TV at all. 

 

As I said above, it hasnt even been decided what to do with it yet.

[David Guiza]

There was a chap on 5Live on my way into work this morning (missed who on earth he was as I wasn't paying attention when he was introduced) who made an interesting point. Nicky Campbell asked him how he felt about certain TV programmes being cancelled in the wake of the BLM movement and he mentioned how hurt he was as a young teen/child when he used to watch Love Thy Neighbour, On the Buses etc, because the language was representative of what he faced in the real world. Much of the nation were coming to terms with this 'new breed' of migrants who had come over in the 60s and 70s and the comedies of the time were simply representative of that fear and, in some respects, hatred. 

 

He however was not in favour of banning said programmes, but rather using them as an example of how far we have come as a nation and society. Noting that we should gasp and, at times, be horrified at the language and behaviour used towards them less than half a century ago. I can't speak on behalf of anybody who was the subject of the offending comedies, but I do think that's a reasonable approach. As I said in my opening post on this thread, I do think media and the arts (tv, film, literature, theatre) should be given more wriggle room than statues and monuments, because the arts are about expression, understanding and challenging the norm.

 

That being said, one programme I never really felt comfortable with is Cops. Even when I watched it as a young teen I thought it was a little 'dodgy' at best. The sting operations and profiling, both race and poverty based, made for uncomfortable viewing. I do think there's a world of difference between comedy and what was effectively a documentary series though. 

Edited 12 June 2020 by David Guiza

[Pliskin]

11 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

This, a million times over! Especially the bit in bold.

 

It's years since I've seen that Fawlty Towers episode, but I do remember that the Major was depicted as a silly crusty old fogey with reactionary views. Fawlty himself was a hysterical, ridiculous character. The Germans were neutral characters.

It would have been different if the Major & Fawlty had been glorified as characters or presented as role models. They weren't. They were presented as ridiculous - and the jokes were on them & on racists, not on Germans, black people or anyone else.

 

It is different where particular races are ridiculed for laughs - or the acts of racism are glorified. That's why there IS justification for the removal of the Colston statue and similar (but NOT people mainly glorified for something else who happen to have a few skeletons in their closet, like Churchill or Gladstone - are we going to ban the Beatles because Lennon & probably some of the others did some things we might disapprove of?).

 

I had a similar argument a couple of years ago with an FB friend who wanted "Fairytale in New York" by The Pogues banned because it includes an undoubtedly homophobic line.....despite the fact that it is a line spoken by a character, a drunken old woman down on her luck in the drunk tank, arguing with her partner. Madness! Particularly when the guitarist of the Pogues was gay.

 

The logical consequence of such intolerance is that someone producing a drama about Hitler would not be able to show him using any anti-Semitic language. Think about that! 

 

More importantly, this bigoted intolerance and these attacks on free speech risk derailing a thoroughly justified cause - namely the efforts to roll back racism and make people think properly about our history.

 

Very true. At the moment what we are seeing is media outlets, and people scrambling around looking for evidence of racial or racist topics and are trying to remove it. it is a very bizarre reaction, and doesn't really make any sense... Like you say context is imperative, I have loads of books of wars and historical figures like Hitler, Stalin etc... anyone who saw my book case out of context would probably think "****, he's a fascist loving racist"... When actually, i'm interested in that particular part of history and those people who created it. 

 

There is a netflix series called "dear white people", it is an american show that deals with racism, so the show contains a lot of racial terms and racial themes, it is obviously easy to place context onto it, because of the theme of the show. Some TV shows and programs include certain story lines where the context is subtle, those will see what it is, and other will probably see something else, so they will drop in racial themes to give the story some context, ironically this can be lost on some people. The people who should be apologising are the likes Matt Lucas and David Walliams for dressing up as minstrels, in the 2000's which Is unreal, even I knew as a kid around those times that it was wrong. 

 

Removal of things that are overtly racist, like little Britain is right, no real context other than taking the piss. Removal of things that are contextual, and that can used to educate then perhaps they need to be reviewed but if it is not necessary to remove then don't it could be detrimental to the educational process. If we remove everything, isn't that ignorance in itself? ignoring the fact that these issues exist? Hiding them and hiding away from them isn't going to help to resolve the issue. 

[Unabomber]

Hope they don’t ban the office as there are a few bits in about race like the cock joke and Ali G impression bit.

Edited 12 June 2020 by Unabomber

[ClaphamFox]

1 hour ago, ealingfox said:

 

We're really not. 

I hope you're right, but I'll be hiding my Joseph Conrad novels in a secret location just in case.

[ealingfox]

 

Bloody snowflake millennial liberal vegan non-binary feminists like *checks notes* John Cleese!

Edited 12 June 2020 by ealingfox

[Innovindil]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

More importantly, this bigoted intolerance and these attacks on free speech risk derailing a thoroughly justified cause - namely the efforts to roll back racism and make people think properly about our history.

This. We're trying to get further along the road to a country/world that is better than it was yesterday, if we stop moving forward and instead try and edit the road before so it looks longer then we're missing the point of it all. 

 

Faulty towers was/is one of the most popular sitcoms ever in Britain and it should be enjoyed, and derided, on how it is, not how it should have been. 

 

P. S. I'm back, love you @Mark, pls have my babies. 

[ANDLeicester]

It’s worth mentioning where these calls to review tv content are coming from. In the case of Ant & Dec, they came to a realisation a few years ago that some of their segments were wrong and they were embarrassed by them. They also didn’t want to legacy of these programmes to be tarred by a continued association with them so made sure that any future broadcast would show an edited version.
 

Is it not highly possible that these calls are now coming from those who were involved in producing/broadcasting these programmes and are now uncomfortable with some of the content? 

[Nalis]

The TV debates on cancel culture always remind me of this:

 

 

 

[BKLFox]

16 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

There was a chap on 5Live on my way into work this morning (missed who on earth he was as I wasn't paying attention when he was introduced) who made an interesting point. Nicky Campbell asked him how he felt about certain TV programmes being cancelled in the wake of the BLM movement and he mentioned how hurt he was as a young teen/child when he used to watch Love Thy Neighbour, On the Buses etc, because the language was representative of what he faced in the real world. Much of the nation were coming to terms with this 'new breed' of migrants who had come over in the 60s and 70s and the comedies of the time were simply representative of that fear and, in some respects, hatred. 

 

He however was not in favour of banning said programmes, but rather using them as an example of how far we have come as a nation and society. Noting that we should gasp and, at times, be horrified at the language and behaviour used towards them less than half a century ago. I can't speak on behalf of anybody who was the subject of the offended comedies, but I do think that's a reasonable approach. As I said in my opening post on this thread, I do think media and the arts (tv, film, literature, theatre) should be given more wriggle room than statues and monuments, because the arts are about expression, understanding and challenging the norm.

 

That being said, one programme I never really felt comfortable with is Cops. Even when I watched it as a young teen I thought it was a little 'dodgy' at best. The sting operations and profiling, both race and poverty based, made for uncomfortable viewing. 

Agree, if in 40yrs or so that generation look back at our films & tv series of today to think that we racially sterotyped our characters & think all Eastern Europeans were gangsters dealing in drugs, human trafficking & espionage (Bond style) or that all Muslims are terrorists

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

3 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

I am genuinely confused by the mighty boosh though, the only character I can think it would be for is the hitchhiker who unless I'm being dense isn't supposed to be a caricature of any black people.

 

I think the gripe was with the Spirit of Jazz character 

[BKLFox]

9 hours ago, leicsmac said:

If he didn't deserve to die the way he did, then why bring up a violent past that he has done time for and served his debt to society from at all, if the two have nothing to do with each other?

 

History should be brought up when it's relevant to present matters, so I'd be interested in knowing exactly what the mans past has to do with the manner in which he died, which is the key element of all this. How he died is the cause celebre, not the manner in which he lived.

Not sure who's lost sight of the context here but i posted in a thread that was questioning whether someone can be put up on a plinth who isn't cleaner than clean.

[yorkie1999]

I see both love thy neighbour and till death us do part are still on you-tube, as is that  episode of Fawlty towers, there again you tube are not there to be PC. This is all just media bullshit to stir the shit, why did they have to tell us a particular episode of Fawlty towers has been banned from being aired, why not just not show it again and don't say anything, it's not as if 10 million people were sat there waiting for it to be shown for the 100th time on uk gold is it!

[Fox92]

2 hours ago, ealingfox said:

The Germans episode of Fawlty Towers contains a discussion between Basil and The Major in which The Major uses not one but two words (one beginning with N and one beginning with W) which are now universally agreed to be completely unacceptable.

 

It has been temporarily withdrawn whilst its decided how to deal with this, which is not in any way unreasonable. It might have been at the time but it is absolutely not ok to broadcast that language now. It's nobody's fault and nobody is going to prison for it. That particular passage in the episode is not central to the plot and could be sympathetically edited without compromising the rest of the episode. It was not withdrawn because of mentions of WW2 or Adolf Hitler.

News just said it's due to racial slurs towards Hitler too.

 

I don't get it. Manuel wasn't really from Spain so is that racist too?

 

Are we gonna pull everything now then? Only Fools talks about their local shop in a racial way too, but that was the time. Same as Fawlty Towers. It's the 70s, it was the time. Of course it's not right but you can't keep moving the goalposts. Things now will be seen as offensive in 50 years.

 

Cleese is right on twitter - Roman's enslaved Britain for 400 years. Are their statues coming down? It's stupid now.

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, BKLFox said:

Not sure who's lost sight of the context here but i posted in a thread that was questioning whether someone can be put up on a plinth who isn't cleaner than clean.

If their personal history has nothing to do with the current matter, absolutely, imo.

 

And that is the difference between Floyd and and slave owners whose statues are being targeted.

Edited 12 June 2020 by leicsmac

[Finnaldo]

Wrong or right, I’ve always subscribed to the ‘freedom to act, freedom for consequence’ mantra. If you’re out in town hammered and get gobby with some  bloke whose 6ft4 and built like a industry-grade refrigerator, don’t be surprised to wake up in A&E with a wired jaw. It’s not legal what he did, but most people probably think you got what’s coming to you.
 

If you keep up a statue calling an 18th century slaver a ‘revered son’ of the town, in a society that now has a noticeable black populace, then expect the statue to become an anchor. Is it legally just? No, but even the Mayor of Bristol didn’t seem distraught at its loss. 
 

There’s been some more contentious defacings since, most I don’t agree with. But a lot of the figures presented don’t get the scrutiny they probably deserve at the same time. 
 

For the TV shows, broadcasters have the right to choose to keep or remove their shoes from streaming services/channels. As much as people have the right to object their removal, it’s a free choice for broadcasters to keep/remove them. It’s not like protestors have stormed their headquarters and personally burnt the tapes and removed it from streaming platforms. It’s not like folks can access those programmes other ways.
 

That said, it seems even the most politically correct of commentators are questioning some removals, so I expect a few of them will be back up before long.

Edited 12 June 2020 by Finnaldo

[lcfcsnow]

2 hours ago, ealingfox said:

The Germans episode of Fawlty Towers contains a discussion between Basil and The Major in which The Major uses not one but two words (one beginning with N and one beginning with W) which are now universally agreed to be completely unacceptable.

when will it end. That N word, many of black ethnicity shall I say use it on a daily basis these days, makes a mockery of the whole thing even further.

[urban.spaceman]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

This, a million times over! Especially the bit in bold.

 

It's years since I've seen that Fawlty Towers episode, but I do remember that the Major was depicted as a silly crusty old fogey with reactionary views. Fawlty himself was a hysterical, ridiculous character. The Germans were neutral characters.

It would have been different if the Major & Fawlty had been glorified as characters or presented as role models. They weren't. They were presented as ridiculous - and the jokes were on them & on racists, not on Germans, black people or anyone else.

 

It is different where particular races are ridiculed for laughs - or the acts of racism are glorified. That's why there IS justification for the removal of the Colston statue and similar (but NOT people mainly glorified for something else who happen to have a few skeletons in their closet, like Churchill or Gladstone - are we going to ban the Beatles because Lennon & probably some of the others did some things we might disapprove of?).

 

I had a similar argument a couple of years ago with an FB friend who wanted "Fairytale in New York" by The Pogues banned because it includes an undoubtedly homophobic line.....despite the fact that it is a line spoken by a character, a drunken old woman down on her luck in the drunk tank, arguing with her partner. Madness! Particularly when the guitarist of the Pogues was gay.

 

The logical consequence of such intolerance is that someone producing a drama about Hitler would not be able to show him using any anti-Semitic language. Think about that! 

 

More importantly, this bigoted intolerance and these attacks on free speech risk derailing a thoroughly justified cause - namely the efforts to roll back racism and make people think properly about our history.

I had this exact argument with an LGBT mate on Facebook a couple of years ago. He was vehemently arguing that the song should be banned outright from all radio stations, that anyone singing it was a disgusting homophobe, and that my argument, that it's an old Irish slang word for a lazy person or a waster, made me a disgusting homophobe too.

 

Last Christmas I caught him on Facebook defending the song with my exact argument against another outraged LGTB guy. 

 

Point is... just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right.