Our system detected that your browser is blocking advertisements on our site. Please help support FoxesTalk by disabling any kind of ad blocker while browsing this site. Thank you.
Jump to content
UniFox21

2020/21 Under 23's, U19's, Development ... thread

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

Blackburn and Derby's academies seem to be better coached than ours currently, not acceptable and I hope we are trying to rectify this. The football style is disgusting.

...Blackburn has, for a long time, been a better coached team than we are!!!

I remember watching us play them when they beat us 7 - 1 and they cut us to pieces every time they attacked. I do not believe we have beaten them since then and that was in 2019 with Damian Johnson involved as their coach. I would have loved to have picked him up to come here but he has now gone on to become their first team technical coach. last season. In the 2017-18 season he guided Blackburn's U21s to the Premier League 2 Division 2 title.

  We look second best to all the teams we come up against, I am not too sure what the U23 players think, I recall the last time we played Blackburn one of our player was playing against his former team mates and they were so much better. A real eye opener.....

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Pliskin said:

Derby’s kids are better than their senior team. 

 

4 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Blackburn and Derby's academies seem to be better coached than ours currently, not acceptable and I hope we are trying to rectify this. The football style is disgusting.

Derby have had some really talented kids coming through.

Every time I chat with colleagues at Pride Park they rave about the academy set up there.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We can't get everything right. 

 

I'm not sure many premier league clubs will have as many as us in their first team squad though - except Chelsea.

 

Barnes, Hamza, Thomas with KDH on loan and having just sold Chilwell is pretty good going and probably as good as its ever been.

 

I'm sure the club are trying to improve that though.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The U23's are suffering because the better players from last season have gone out on loan or are training with the first team, I don't think they are allowed back into the U23's due to covid restrictions.

Most clubs U23's have a dip from time to time when there is a exodus and influx of players, the only club that seem to always be at or near the top is Chelsea.  If it continue into next season then the club needs to have a long hard look at the youth recruitment!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 02/02/2021 at 19:54, jeffschlupp said:

Chilwell and Barnes were not technically brilliant players in the U23s, and I think it's been well documented that our graduates from the academy were heavily reliant on their physical attributes at least at first to stand out.

 

The players we have produced is a positive, but there is potential to do better. And I think that players will be ready much quicker for the first team if they play a style that mimics that first team. Look at how long it took Chilwell to adapt to the Premier League, Hamza still isn't there for me, Barnes had a quiet first 6-12 months even after loans away. You might say everyone needs a period of adaptation but I would say it's likely to be quicker if the players are used to play Rodgers' football rather than long ball nonsense.

Exactly this, our next fleet of players in the academy (not all will make it granted), should be mirroring the First teams style of play and intensity, this way BR can judge certain players in areas / roles, too see if they're able too make the transition (allbeit with some work) quickly, into the first team, provided they're good enough.

 

To have to wait so long for an academy player to step up, or fit into a system or style of play is wasting valuable time, and gives BR more work and transition time, which if we get a string of injuries we wont have the time too sort. It seems common sense really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Le Renard said:

The U23's are suffering because the better players from last season have gone out on loan or are training with the first team, I don't think they are allowed back into the U23's due to covid restrictions.

Most clubs U23's have a dip from time to time when there is a exodus and influx of players, the only club that seem to always be at or near the top is Chelsea.  If it continue into next season then the club needs to have a long hard look at the youth recruitment!

The style of play have been horrifying for years under Beaglehole. Likewise, the slow progression of U18 players in to the U23's and the 18-21 year old getting loan moves. We've actually prevented players getting loan moves to try and win a bull shit PL2 league. 

 

It's going to take a few years to improve things, maybe longer depending on recruitment but the whole ethos of the academy needs an overhaul. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Theres simply no excuse for not overhauling our academy. Pretty much everything about our club is to the envy of the majority of the country and yet we've never touched our academy for years. It's really no coincidence, people can hide behind the fact we have produced a few players but we could and should have the best academy in the Midlands, if not the country. We are as fiercely ambitious in the first team at becoming the best, so why not do the same in the academy too? 

What do you mean by this specifically?

Edited by Kilworthfox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

The style of play have been horrifying for years under Beaglehole. Likewise, the slow progression of U18 players in to the U23's and the 18-21 year old getting loan moves. We've actually prevented players getting loan moves to try and win a bull shit PL2 league. 

 

It's going to take a few years to improve things, maybe longer depending on recruitment but the whole ethos of the academy needs an overhaul. 

I think we can be confident that improvement at that level is on the radar. I have no source for this, but it's a very well run club that won't allow any piece of the jigsaw to spoil the overall picture.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

What do you mean by this exactly?

1) new coaches that match the calibre and ambition of the entire club

2) a change to the coaching and playing style that matches our first team to which we are the envy of many clubs in the country

3) a quicker progressions through the age groups, get 16 year old in to the U18's and U18's in to the U23's and then loan moves more quicker. 

4) be at the front of the queue to sign the best youngsters at an early age from the Midlands and beyond. Get them being coached by the best, in the best facilities in Europe.

5) invest more money in the recruitment of the best youngsters - this we have really missed the boat on in recent years, as we now cannot sign overseas players under the age of 18 and makes the importance of being better equipped at getting quality domestic young players in to our club over our rivals.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Steve Earle said:

I think we can be confident that improvement at that level is on the radar. I have no source for this, but it's a very well run club that won't allow any piece of the jigsaw to spoil the overall picture.

How can we be confident when this club has changed beyond belief in the 9-10 years the Thai's have owned us and yet our academy has remained untouchable or changeable. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Theres simply no excuse for not overhauling our academy. Pretty much everything about our club is to the envy of the majority of the country and yet we've never touched our academy for years. It's really no coincidence, people can hide behind the fact we have produced a few players but we could and should have the best academy in the Midlands, if not the country. We are as fiercely ambitious in the first team at becoming the best, so why not do the same in the academy too? 

Hear Hear. It seems to me ManC 1st team, ladies, under 23s . under 19s .Prem league div 1 team , prem league div 2 team and even their bloody snooker team are all top of their bloody leagues. We're not from the Middle E and we should be aiming at top in everything we contest and smiling where we're not (a sort of sinister smile).Surely BR would support that, his reputation is as a good coach and I'd assumed that our new facilities meant we had a good academy.

Edited by Alan Frost
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

How can we be confident when this club has changed beyond belief in the 9-10 years the Thai's have owned us and yet our academy has remained untouchable or changeable. 

It's taken most of that time to deliver the new training ground which would have been dismissed as a pipe dream even 5 years ago. The size and scale of the project tells us it's not all about the first team. Do you think Brendan will accept indefinitely the development teams playing a different style of football to the first team?

 

I can't help you with your levels of belief and confidence. I take your point, but change at this level needs concerted, joined up action from the DoF and the manager. The first team has understandably been Brendan's priority so far, and he's lost a whole summer this year when a subject like this might have been addressed. It'll happen, of that I'm sure. KTF!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

What do you mean by this exactly?

. I would imagine a complete root and branch approach to the restructuring of the academy!!!

  First port of call to be a top down style of play where the same style and ethos is carried throughout the age groups. 

  New  progressive coaches are brought in, even if we have to look abroad, we are a technically poorly coached academy and seem to turn out generic players who fail to compete in league 1.

 Our catchment area should extend to down south and everything in between, we have not built our new facilities just to stay the same.

  We did change our approach regarding the style of play in our U23s to keeping the ball on the floor with better movement, recycling and more patience in our play. That period did not last too long as we have gone back to what you probably watched last night.

 The fact that we have reverted back to this and the announcement that Beaglehole was taking up a new position at the start of the season, means that a discussion was had and someone lost the argument. 

 It will not be possible I believe for us to transition to anywhere near where we need to be, with the present people in place, who are entrusted by the club, to run this area of our development. 

  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Ric Flair said:

1) new coaches that match the calibre and ambition of the entire club

2) a change to the coaching and playing style that matches our first team to which we are the envy of many clubs in the country

3) a quicker progressions through the age groups, get 16 year old in to the U18's and U18's in to the U23's and then loan moves more quicker. 

4) be at the front of the queue to sign the best youngsters from the Midlands and beyond

5) invest more money in the recruitment of the best youngsters - this we have really missed the boat on in recent years, as we now cannot sign overseas players under the age of 18 and makes the importance of being better equipped at getting quality domestic young players in to our club over our rivals.

 

 

I'm writing far too much here... but..

 

1. Wont happen! Mediocrity reigns as a broad opinion / statement... Some are exceptional, some are poor, some get opportunities, others don't, some stay, some leave.

What you may or may not be aware of is lets say you are coaching the U10's... just for example, how do you quantify if the coach or coaches are competent?

 

Do you really think the suits are watching every session? every clip of every player in their matches?

The main gauge is totally wrong for development, its... What was the score? Did we win against Villa? Oh good... We lost against Northampton? How did that happen?

 

Also why just coaches? This is another obsession! Coaching is important yes, but there are more areas to look at than just coaching! Football in general & the F.A are obsessed with coaching, but less so on other areas! I believe this is to quantify & justify levels. Its a cop out.

 

2. Wont happen until SB decides to retire.

 

3. I assume you mean that extremely talented players should be challenged?

This does happen from my experience but not all experience is good or bad... but on the loans, the role was created if I remember correctly 2 ish years ago and Guy Branston is in this position, I listened to him on the price of football podcast where he explains his role. Was quite interesting.

 

4. Its not as easy as that! Also parents are the key, which isn't always straightforward.

 

5. To some extent I agree, however its not always just money that is the issue. For example @UpTheLeagueFox rightly says that Derby have some good prospects coming through. This is because over a longer period they took the recruitment of "local" players more seriously than Leicester. This means having connections with clubs regionally to cover your travel times for age groups. This also means not sticking to 1 general philosophy... like he's a biggun get him in... which does happen! Derby are 5 years ahead of Leicester, and the only way to catch up id to do the best job NOW, but you wont see those results NOW, you'll see them in 8 to 12 years!

 

I know 100% that change needs to happen, change will happen, but not at the click of fingers... You would be amazed at how incompetent you can be within football and stil be fully employed and not have your job questioned.

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

. I would imagine a complete root and branch approach to the restructuring of the academy!!!

  First port of call to be a top down style of play where the same style and ethos is carried throughout the age groups. 

  New  progressive coaches are brought in, even if we have to look abroad, we are a technically poorly coached academy and seem to turn out generic players who fail to compete in league 1.

 Our catchment area should extend to down south and everything in between, we have not built our new facilities just to stay the same.

  We did change our approach regarding the style of play in our U23s to keeping the ball on the floor with better movement, recycling and more patience in our play. That period did not last too long as we have gone back to what you probably watched last night.

 The fact that we have reverted back to this and the announcement that Beaglehole was taking up a new position at the start of the season, means that a discussion was had and someone lost the argument. 

 It will not be possible I believe for us to transition to anywhere near where we need to be, with the present people in place, who are entrusted by the club, to run this area of our development. 

  

What ages are you talking about? 

 

Are you aware that there are travel time restrictions for children? Or are you talking about Professional footballers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

What ages are you talking about? 

 

Are you aware that there are travel time restrictions for children? Or are you talking about Professional footballers?

..throughout the whole age group!!!

  Travel time is not an impact as the coaches have them for that period already.

 Better coaches a concentration on doing the basics right. Giving players a comprehensive knowledge of the game not just the positions they are playing in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

..throughout the whole age group!!!

  Travel time is not an impact as the coaches have them for that period already.

 Better coaches a concentration on doing the basics right. Giving players a comprehensive knowledge of the game not just the positions they are playing in.

The academy "officially" coaches players from ages 7 to 18... So all age groups?

 

Travel time is an F.A Directive which has to be adhered to, so its a big restriction on getting players from the south coast for example! Actually unless they have a starship enterprise... its impossible! There is a system based on postcodes that you have to register a player with the F.A, they decide the travel time, to your academy, therefore if we want to compete in Derby (I wouldn't recommend it!) that's fine, but in Oxford for example, that's against the rule.

 

Travel time is there to protect children, and restrict too much travel for young people who should be doing more important things like education, not football. This restricts professional academies where they can source players under 16.

 

So what do we do with the current coaches who, (apparently...evidence?) are not good enough?

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Kilworthfox said:

What ages are you talking about? 

 

Are you aware that there are travel time restrictions for children? Or are you talking about Professional footballers?

I know little about football but had a long and reasonable career in management , which is mainly people skills plus a few other things, (electronics in my case) and imo basically football management is largely people skills plus a  few other things. 

Now to come to the point Barcelona at their peak were the best team I ever saw, largely due to the fact they had 3 players who had come from being kids I believe at their famous and possibly the best ever academy, which I forget the name of. The players were Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. They had a few others too and when they passed the ball didn't just go accurately to the right player , it went to his best foot, accurately and often did n't need a touch to control it. You only need 3-5 players in a team with that skill and the rest just ordinary footballers and the whole team passes accurately because the really skilled guys contnually correct passing errors and restore the accuracy. As a result until they reached the oppositions penalty area where players are more tightly packed no one else touched the ball. Their end product was not as good as it should have been because they wanted the pleasure of having the ball and making it talk and in the more congested penalty area even they could lose the ball occasionally so they never rushed to get there. Thats how it looked to me anyway.and you guys will know all this anyway.. Even so they were a pleasure to watch and did n't do too badly.for a few years.

The point is their academy was residential and in loco parentis. I assumed our new facilites were residential and certainly should be, with teaching football skills and also education using local school facilities. Necessary or a lot of  parents especially those of the smarter kids who I suspect often make the best footballers, won't sign up to it.The parents of the poorer kids would die to sign up to it, a footbller who's good is a route out of being poor for the whole family. Micheal Owen bought an entire street oop north for his entire extended family, some of whom might have been race horses. I went to an in loco parentis hostel for a while before university to start learning  electronics. Of course I had to have A levels so we were not young kids. It was what was called a thick sandwich course ,and some of us were. I imagined we would be doing something similar at our academy. Providing accomodation and education costs peanuts compared with buying in good players and the money in successful  football, or even rubbish football. 

 

I could add some slightly more luxurious accomodation might help a lot in signings . many young high earning footballers have a WAG and the wife would really appreciate a club which initially provided temporary well built accomodation so she moved when he did to keep an eye on her young fit and attractive Golden goose. Maybe this is taken care of by club houses these days, it certainly was by Rangers when they moved up the English contingent ,in the wake of Heysel, Most of them moved to the village I lived in and a friend of mine (a builder) made a lot of money as Butcher and others kept moving upmarket. Even my son made a bit when he dropped the spuds at a Rangers dinner and said F--- it (I'd brought him up well) and they liked it and he got a big tip.

Reading your posts I've obviously got it wrong. I believe Cruyff had a lot to do with setting up most things at Barcelona which Pep presumably carried on. Something seems to have gone a bit wrong lately , maybe as simple as Pep left . I don't know, but that's football . I'm also describing football but not as we know it , Jim. 

I'd like to see someone in LCFC thinking on this scale. I'm sure the owners would like it and may even be heading there. Whaddya think .Pie in the Sky ?

Edited by Alan Frost
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Alan Frost said:

I know little about football but had a long and reasonable career in management , which is mainly people skills plus a few other things, (electronics in my case) and imo basically football management is largely people skills plus a  few other things. 

Now to come to the point Barcelona at their peak were the best team I ever saw, largely due to the fact they had 3 players who had come from being kids I believe at their famous and possibly the best ever academy, which I forget the name of. The players were Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. They had a few others too and when they passed the ball didn't just go accurately to the right player , it went to his best foot, accurately and often did n't need a touch to control it. You only need 3-5 players in a team with that skill and the rest just ordinary footballers and the whole team passes accurately because the really skilled guys contnually correct passing errors and restore the accuracy. As a result until they reached the oppositions penalty area where players are more tightly packed no one else touched the ball. Their end product was not as good as it should have been because they wanted the pleasure of having the ball and making it talk and in the more congested penalty area even they could lose the ball occasionally so they never rushed to get there. Thats how it looked to me anyway.and you guys will know all this anyway.. Even so they were a pleasure to watch and did n't do too badly.for a few years.

The point is their academy was residential and in loco parentis. I assumed our new facilites were residential and certainly should be, with teaching football skills and also education using local school facilities. Necessary or a lot of  parents especially those of the smarter kids who I suspect often make the best footballers, won't sign up to it.The parents of the poorer kids would die to sign up to it, a footbller who's good is a route out of being poor for the whole family. Micheal Owen bought an entire street oop north for his entire extended family, some of whom might have been race horses. I went to an in loco parentis hostel for a while before university to start learning  electronics. Of course I had to have A levels so we were not young kids. It was what was called a thick sandwich course ,and some of us were. I imagined we would be doing something similar at our academy. Providing accomodation and education costs peanuts compared with buying in good players and the money in successful  football, or even rubbish football. 

Reading your posts I've obviously got it wrong. I believe Cruyff had a lot to do with setting up most things at Barcelona which Pep presumably carried on. Something seems to have gone a bit wrong lately , maybe as simple as Pep left . I don't know, but that's football . I'm also describing football but not as we know it , Jim. 

I'd like to see someone in LCFC thinking on this scale. I'm sure the owners would like it and may even be heading there. Whaddya think .Pie in the Sky ?

The reason in bold is why its a business.

 

However there is a duty of care for children. Now the situation you may be referring to would be for people aged 16+ but I am unsure how healthy it is to live and work on site, I am not aware of any club that operates this, and I personally would not be in favour as a rule...

 

In England there is a hierarchy of importance for football that goes like this: School > Academy > Grassroots.  This means to me, that the scenario you are outlining, is not currently within the footballing vision of social acceptability, as even football accepts that someone in some form of education is best off staying in education. However once you are past 14, and are associated with a football club, and join their educational programme. This essentially means half day football, half day schooling.

 

Barcelona's training ground is La Masia just for the pub quiz. :thumbup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm frustrated that Wakeling was played last night. Why not include him in the squad for tonight's game? I know we've got a depleted development squad in some key areas but it shouldn't matter either way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...