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UniFox21

2020/21 Under 23's, U19's, Development ... thread

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7 minutes ago, UHDrive said:

I'm frustrated that Wakeling was played last night. Why not include him in the squad for tonight's game? I know we've got a depleted development squad in some key areas but it shouldn't matter either way.

I thought this but Vardy needs the minutes as does Iheanacho. As soon as he trains with the 1st team he will have to stay away from the U23's for a number of days. If he continues to score most games he plays then he'll get a chance.

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1 hour ago, Alan Frost said:

I know little about football but had a long and reasonable career in management , which is mainly people skills plus a few other things, (electronics in my case) and imo basically football management is largely people skills plus a  few other things. 

Now to come to the point Barcelona at their peak were the best team I ever saw, largely due to the fact they had 3 players who had come from being kids I believe at their famous and possibly the best ever academy, which I forget the name of. The players were Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. They had a few others too and when they passed the ball didn't just go accurately to the right player , it went to his best foot, accurately and often did n't need a touch to control it. You only need 3-5 players in a team with that skill and the rest just ordinary footballers and the whole team passes accurately because the really skilled guys contnually correct passing errors and restore the accuracy. As a result until they reached the oppositions penalty area where players are more tightly packed no one else touched the ball. Their end product was not as good as it should have been because they wanted the pleasure of having the ball and making it talk and in the more congested penalty area even they could lose the ball occasionally so they never rushed to get there. Thats how it looked to me anyway.and you guys will know all this anyway.. Even so they were a pleasure to watch and did n't do too badly.for a few years.

The point is their academy was residential and in loco parentis. I assumed our new facilites were residential and certainly should be, with teaching football skills and also education using local school facilities. Necessary or a lot of  parents especially those of the smarter kids who I suspect often make the best footballers, won't sign up to it.The parents of the poorer kids would die to sign up to it, a footbller who's good is a route out of being poor for the whole family. Micheal Owen bought an entire street oop north for his entire extended family, some of whom might have been race horses. I went to an in loco parentis hostel for a while before university to start learning  electronics. Of course I had to have A levels so we were not young kids. It was what was called a thick sandwich course ,and some of us were. I imagined we would be doing something similar at our academy. Providing accomodation and education costs peanuts compared with buying in good players and the money in successful  football, or even rubbish football. 

 

I could add some slightly more luxurious accomodation might help a lot in signings . many young high earning footballers have a WAG and the wife would really appreciate a club which initially provided temporary well built accomodation so she moved when he did to keep an eye on her young fit and attractive Golden goose. Maybe this is taken care of by club houses these days, it certainly was by Rangers when they moved up the English contingent ,in the wake of Heysel, Most of them moved to the village I lived in and a friend of mine (a builder) made a lot of money as Butcher and others kept moving upmarket. Even my son made a bit when he dropped the spuds at a Rangers dinner and said F--- it (I'd brought him up well) and they liked it and he got a big tip.

Reading your posts I've obviously got it wrong. I believe Cruyff had a lot to do with setting up most things at Barcelona which Pep presumably carried on. Something seems to have gone a bit wrong lately , maybe as simple as Pep left . I don't know, but that's football . I'm also describing football but not as we know it , Jim. 

I'd like to see someone in LCFC thinking on this scale. I'm sure the owners would like it and may even be heading there. Whaddya think .Pie in the Sky ?

...very reminiscent of the Ajax philosophy which was brilliant and brought through quite a few brilliant players!!!

Academy students had schooling on premises and it was as if  going to a private college as education was mixed with training. The notable thing about the training was that the players played in different positions so that the student could understand the requirements of the different positions.

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8 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

1) new coaches that match the calibre and ambition of the entire club

 

We should look for a coach that get kids into the England setup. And about six Premier League players. Difficult to come by though... :ph34r:

 

8 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

3) a quicker progressions through the age groups, get 16 year old in to the U18's and U18's in to the U23's and then loan moves more quicker. 

 

 

We had a 16 year old in the u23s last night. A note of congratulations to Steve on the way surely...

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1 hour ago, Angus Scott said:

U 23's not much better. Relegation a real possibility

Jeez, this can’t happen with the new training ground. 
 

we’re going to be gunning for top 4, Europa league and the fa cup and were still going to have to play Youri, vards and wilf for the under 23s to keep them up. 

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1 hour ago, moore_94 said:

New long term deal being discussed for Shane Flynn, also talks about how he is now training with the first team (and is expected to be part of the squad for the rest of the season)

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/english-soccer/shane-flynn-in-frame-for-leicester-debut-in-fa-cup-clash-against-brighton-1.4480542

Flynn looks a tidy enough player bit he will have a huge job of getting ahead of Luke Thomas and hopefully gets a loan move next season.

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On 08/02/2021 at 16:57, jamesmilner said:

When the pubs open I’ll buy you a pint of BITTER . 👍 ! If you was an electric cable you’d be ‘negative’ . Unfortunately over 98% of academy players fail .Leicester have had success and failures ,that’s football . But overall they’ve done better than most . If you think Leighton has failed because of ‘ hoofball ‘ , you know nothing . If players (not just Leighton ) are that good , quite obviously they’ll be signed by another club ? Why doesn’t/hasn’t that happened ? We’ve got quite a few ‘hoofball’ trained players out on loan doing fine 👍. Like I say , the academy is doing ok for what it’s supposed to do ! 

This is a Classic example of  "closed loop thinking" (Matthew Syed - "Black Box Thinking")

 

In the financial world, it doesn't take a genius to turn £1m into £1m.......you judge an investors success by whether he turns £1m into £1 or preferably, whether he can turn £1 into £1m.

Barnes would probably have succeeded at any academy....that doesn't necessarily make us any better than any other academy, its just geography based on where he lived and his application and attitude (with some good coaching input from 'some' excellent coaches through the younger age groups).

 

As for Ndukwu, there were many clubs who wanted to sign him as a 15-17 year old but leicester didnt want to sell....why do you think that was?

For some reason his development has nose-dived in the past 3-4 years (U23s football??) and while its a fair criticism to blame the player for his apparent lack of application, does that just exonerate the coaches/system from all blame?  If so, you're effectively saying that where players fail its because of them but where players succeed, its because of the coaches and the academy!   

This is a player who other 'bigger' clubs were prepared to pay good money for as a young player but now is effectively worth nothing (ie turning £1m into £1...!)

 

Sounds like the perfect world to be a coach as you effectively cannot fail......if the player succeeds its because of YOU and if they fail, its because of THEM....but you as a coach remain beyond objective criticism as you have just shown by your comments.

 

if you view that as negative then fair enough.....personally, i would always try to focus on performance improvement by highlighting areas of weakness and concern and turning them into strengths rather than just accepting it for what it is. 

 

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3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Flynn looks a tidy enough player bit he will have a huge job of getting ahead of Luke Thomas and hopefully gets a loan move next season.

he's a converted winger isn't he? Was he any good there? As we are short in that area

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1 hour ago, Foxy-Lady said:

This is a Classic example of  "closed loop thinking" (Matthew Syed - "Black Box Thinking")

 

In the financial world, it doesn't take a genius to turn £1m into £1m.......you judge an investors success by whether he turns £1m into £1 or preferably, whether he can turn £1 into £1m.

Barnes would probably have succeeded at any academy....that doesn't necessarily make us any better than any other academy, its just geography based on where he lived and his application and attitude (with some good coaching input from 'some' excellent coaches through the younger age groups).

 

As for Ndukwu, there were many clubs who wanted to sign him as a 15-17 year old but leicester didnt want to sell....why do you think that was?

For some reason his development has nose-dived in the past 3-4 years (U23s football??) and while its a fair criticism to blame the player for his apparent lack of application, does that just exonerate the coaches/system from all blame?  If so, you're effectively saying that where players fail its because of them but where players succeed, its because of the coaches and the academy!   

This is a player who other 'bigger' clubs were prepared to pay good money for as a young player but now is effectively worth nothing (ie turning £1m into £1...!)

 

Sounds like the perfect world to be a coach as you effectively cannot fail......if the player succeeds its because of YOU and if they fail, its because of THEM....but you as a coach remain beyond objective criticism as you have just shown by your comments.

 

if you view that as negative then fair enough.....personally, i would always try to focus on performance improvement by highlighting areas of weakness and concern and turning them into strengths rather than just accepting it for what it is. 

 

But you’ve just said exactly the same thing but the other way around - Barnes success was due to himself and he would have succeeded anywhere and Ndukwu’s failure is down to the coaches...

 

If one is factually incorrect, then so is the other. Many more talented players have failed at bigger clubs with better academies than ours.

 

The fact is there are so many things that go into a players success or failure, their drive to successes, their application, coaching, family background and support, their peer group. 
 

Your post let’s just blame the coaches and ignore their success is just a bit strange. Each player will have hundreds of factors in their success and ability is just one small part the bigger picture.

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49 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

he's a converted winger isn't he? Was he any good there? As we are short in that area

Saw a bit of him for the U18's last season where he played a sort of Danny Tiatto type role as a left footed player that was neither really a full back or a winger or a central midfielder, a sort of jack of all trades type. He was decent though.

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2 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

But you’ve just said exactly the same thing but the other way around - Barnes success was due to himself and he would have succeeded anywhere and Ndukwu’s failure is down to the coaches...

 

If one is factually incorrect, then so is the other. Many more talented players have failed at bigger clubs with better academies than ours.

 

The fact is there are so many things that go into a players success or failure, their drive to successes, their application, coaching, family background and support, their peer group. 
 

Your post let’s just blame the coaches and ignore their success is just a bit strange. Each player will have hundreds of factors in their success and ability is just one small part the bigger picture.

Totally agree with you on the highlighted points.

 

The point i was trying to make (possibly not as well as i could?) was that our Academy system seems to beyond criticism in the eyes of many who simply use Barnes to justify the "if it aint broke....why fix it?" mentality. The use of the Barnes Vs Ndukwu comparison was simply to illustrate that turning Gold into Gold should not blindly be used as the measure of our success.....but turning Gold into lead should certainly be worthy of serious questions being asked.

It is highly probable that Barnes would have been a success at ANY academy....but it is equally possible that Ndukwu may also have succeeded at other academies who place greater focus on technical ability.

Yet his talents appear never to have been maximised at Leicester and that should be an area of concern as he was widely considered a far better player than Barnes throughout the age groups until his development stalled in the U23s set-up where physicality and win-at-all-costs take preferrence over technical ability.

 

Personally, i think Hamza presents a better case for those arguing the success of our Academy as he is a player who was not among the most talented but who has managed to succeed through his determination and may not have succeeded at other Academies....but the counter-point is that he is precisely the sort of player that fits the Beaglehole mould (ie combative and defensively minded but with limited creativity/technical ability)

No coincidence that the vast majority of players produced via our U23s set-up are defensively minded players (with the exceptions of Barnes & KDH) in view of Beagleholes philsophy and his own footballing background. And yet, by all accounts, we previously had an outstanding group of technical coaches at 12-16 age groups who are now no longer with the club who were heavily involved in the development of Barnes, KDH, Thomas, Chilwell & Eppiah 

 

The first team currently have a supposed shortage of creativity and attacking options due to unavailability yet, with the exception of Barnes, i genuinely cannot think of any player of that mould that has come through our U23 system during Beagleholes 10 year tenureship. Are we seriously suggesting there is something in the water in the UKs 12th largest catchment area that prevents one of the most high profile & wealthiest clubs in England producing technically creative footballers....or is that we have coaches at that key development stage whose main strengths lie in developing defensively minded players (ie chilwell, thomas, choudhoury, moore etc...)

 

of all the U23s academy produced players currently out on loan, Knight and Johnson are both out-and-out defenders and only KDH & Eppiah have the technical ability to potentially play in a more advanced creative role....and ironically, Eppiah was injured for most of his time with Beagleholes U23 set-up!

 

Just to emphaise the lack of attacking or technically gifted players who have graduated through Beagleholes coaching "black-hole" in the last 10 years, i can only immediately think of 2 'local leicester lads'  currently starting regularly in the PL. One is our own Harvey Barnes and the other came through via Oadby Town and the academy at Ilkeston (ie Che Adams).

 

Doesn't seem right to me that the U23 Academy team of the UKs 12th largest catchment area have the same success rate of producing PL creativity and goal scorers as Ilkeston Town....! 

 

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40 minutes ago, AjcW said:

Sure I'm not the only one thinking that Daley Campbell's excellent performance last night only highlights even more the issues with management and style of play at youth level?

 

I've watched him on a number of occasions this season look distinctly average/poor for the U23's, steps up to the first team last night in a proper system playing actual football and looks right at home.


Change needs to happen soon or we could lose a really bright generation, DC is just lucky BR has spotted something in training, because I doubt he got much from watching him in games.

VDC is nothing to do with our academy ......

 

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I've posted more than enough on here on this topic. But in-line with comments above, it must be said that the management and structure in terms of how the development ages as a whole are managed and controlled from top to bottom needs fundamentally changing. Our scouting and recruitment team need to be working more intensely for the next Messi, amongst other additions for all age groups along with first team sourcing.

 

Our current set up ignores this and is only focused on playing matches in their respective development leugues as opposed to finding players that stand out and grooming them for the next best thing. Our club next to never moves players up through the age groups on merit and that is part of the problem. When these kids are 18 they can get professional contracts wherever they like, and here we are with a multitude of players over that age who will never make the cut for this club or leugue and yet they are playing game time in the development league. 

 

The development team management needs a massive overhaul and clear out to move forward in modern times and catch up to the academy's that the bigger clubs operate. The entire development teams need to become far more streamlined and efficient with far more talent bought into it.

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On 10/02/2021 at 14:59, Ric Flair said:

Saw a bit of him for the U18's last season where he played a sort of Danny Tiatto type role as a left footed player that was neither really a full back or a winger or a central midfielder, a sort of jack of all trades type. He was decent though.

Not quite such a headcase though as DT!

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2 hours ago, AjcW said:

Sure I'm not the only one thinking that Daley Campbell's excellent performance last night only highlights even more the issues with management and style of play at youth level?

 

I've watched him on a number of occasions this season look distinctly average/poor for the U23's, steps up to the first team last night in a proper system playing actual football and looks right at home.


Change needs to happen soon or we could lose a really bright generation, DC is just lucky BR has spotted something in training, because I doubt he got much from watching him in games.

.....very much the way I viewed him watching him play in the U23s!!!

Seemed recently to be  a marked upgrade in his performances when playing as support upfront. I remember Ian Wright being angry with  Arsenal letting him go and berated their youth policy.

  You start to think that some players are born to excel in environments that you would normally be viewed as beyond their capabilities. Thomas due to circumstances has come in and excelled, Daley-Campbell now appear to be doing the same . I still think that Hirst is a player that would bridge this gap although he does not appear to be pulling up any trees in the lower leagues at the moment.

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2 hours ago, AjcW said:

Sure I'm not the only one thinking that Daley Campbell's excellent performance last night only highlights even more the issues with management and style of play at youth level?

 

I've watched him on a number of occasions this season look distinctly average/poor for the U23's, steps up to the first team last night in a proper system playing actual football and looks right at home.


Change needs to happen soon or we could lose a really bright generation, DC is just lucky BR has spotted something in training, because I doubt he got much from watching him in games.

Tbf he was surrounded by better players. I always hear similar sort of comments for the likes of Barnes, Chilwell, choudhury and KDH where people say they weren’t that great for the u23s or nothing special. 

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2 hours ago, UHDrive said:

I've posted more than enough on here on this topic. But in-line with comments above, it must be said that the management and structure in terms of how the development ages as a whole are managed and controlled from top to bottom needs fundamentally changing. Our scouting and recruitment team need to be working more intensely for the next Messi, amongst other additions for all age groups along with first team sourcing.

 

Our current set up ignores this and is only focused on playing matches in their respective development leugues as opposed to finding players that stand out and grooming them for the next best thing. Our club next to never moves players up through the age groups on merit and that is part of the problem. When these kids are 18 they can get professional contracts wherever they like, and here we are with a multitude of players over that age who will never make the cut for this club or leugue and yet they are playing game time in the development league. 

 

The development team management needs a massive overhaul and clear out to move forward in modern times and catch up to the academy's that the bigger clubs operate. The entire development teams need to become far more streamlined and efficient with far more talent bought into it.

What do you mean, more intensely? 

 

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