2020/21 Under 23's, U19's, Development ... thread

[The People's Hero]

If they were just more intense/intensive we'd have several next Messi s.

 

God damn their lack of intensiteeeeee (Claude wouldn't have allowed it).

 

Swap kop with family stand.

 

Have we signed Nicky Maynard yet?

 

Kermo was decent.

 

Lester iz just a rugby club without Mehhhrez!!

 

Can you vote for my niece as the face of kinder?

 

I think that's just about everything done.

 

Best Regards,

 

CraigAdams23 (must be CraigAdams30 at least by now?)

[Kilworthfox]

36 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

I suspect the OP meant 'intensively'.

Irrespective it's the same point. And the same question remains. 

[AjcW]

3 hours ago, st albans fox said:

VDC is nothing to do with our academy ......

 

I didn’t say he was did I? 
 

1 hour ago, lcfc sheff said:

Tbf he was surrounded by better players. I always hear similar sort of comments for the likes of Barnes, Chilwell, choudhury and KDH where people say they weren’t that great for the u23s or nothing special. 

yeah... exactly... I thought exactly the same about Barnes, Chilwell and Choudhury. Playing Turgid football in the U23’s they didn’t look anything special but thankfully they were sent out on loans. It’s no coincidence that none of the three you mention got a look in before they’d moved out to play elsewhere first. 

[Foxxed]

5 hours ago, AjcW said:

Sure I'm not the only one thinking that Daley Campbell's excellent performance last night only highlights even more the issues with management and style of play at youth level?

 

I've watched him on a number of occasions this season look distinctly average/poor for the U23's, steps up to the first team last night in a proper system playing actual football and looks right at home.

Change needs to happen soon or we could lose a really bright generation, DC is just lucky BR has spotted something in training, because I doubt he got much from watching him in games.

Can we perhaps wait more than one game, a game where he was protected by the other players, before coming to a conclusion that the academy players would succeed if only they were taken out of the u23s and put into the first team?

[AjcW]

6 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

Can we perhaps wait more than one game, a game where he was protected by the other players, before coming to a conclusion that the academy players would succeed if only they were taken out of the u23s and put into the first team?

Again, i've said nothing about how players would benefit from being taken out of the u23's and put into the first team.

What they would benefit from is not being coached by a glorified PE teacher.

 

Trust me, i'd much rather they didn't have the added pressure of being in the first team too soon, but if that's the only way they're able to step up and show qualities currently then so be it. 

[Webbo]

Tbf to our academy, VDC was the fourth home grown player to play for us this season. We've not long sold Chilwell for £50 million and KDH is getting rave reviews on loan.That's not a bad strike rate

[The People's Hero]

Just now, Webbo said:

Tbf to our academy, VDC was the fourth home grown player to play for us this season. We've not long sold Chilwell for £50 million and KDH is getting rave reviews on loan.That's not a bad strike rate

Its a very good strike rate; there's just a feeling we could be doing even better.

[AjcW]

15 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Tbf to our academy, VDC was the fourth home grown player to play for us this season. We've not long sold Chilwell for £50 million and KDH is getting rave reviews on loan.That's not a bad strike rate

Definitely can't argue with that Webbo, but as i've said above, Chilwell and Barnes wouldn't be anywhere without their loans away from the club, and KDH is the latest success along the same process. 

 

Thomas was one who hardly saw any games in the U23's before promotion and has really learned his football in the first team which is great, but again highlights a lack of faith in our mid way point between academy and first team.

 

Don't get me wrong, some of the issues lie with the U23 system, I think it's broken and needs to be replaced with a B-Team/Reserves league again. But for me it's time to upgrade the staff now that we've upgraded the facilities.

 

I just find it absolutely baffling that Rodgers and Congerton who are famed for their success at building the Chelsea youth set up back in the day, aren't fighting for more changes behind the scenes.... who knows, perhaps they are, but it needs to happen sooner rather than later.

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

Tbf to our academy, VDC was the fourth home grown player to play for us this season. We've not long sold Chilwell for £50 million and KDH is getting rave reviews on loan.That's not a bad strike rate

....are you attributing Home Grown to the U23s!!!

VDC not a bonafide product of the academy, his formative years were at Arsenal, approximately 2 years with us so far.

[ealingfox]

Shouldn't it really go back to being U21s? You shouldn't be playing regular academy football if you're 22, you should be in a first team squad, be that at your academy club or elsewhere.

[surrifox]

9 hours ago, Webbo said:

Tbf to our academy, VDC was the fourth home grown player to play for us this season. We've not long sold Chilwell for £50 million and KDH is getting rave reviews on loan.That's not a bad strike rate

We also have one of them, Barnes developing into a £40/50 mill player. You can see why the senior management at the club wouldn’t be in a hurry to scrap the status quo 

[Webbo]

7 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....are you attributing Home Grown to the U23s!!!

VDC not a bonafide product of the academy, his formative years were at Arsenal, approximately 2 years with us so far.

Wasn't he let go by Arsenal? If he's been here 2 years then he must have improved here. Seems a bit churlish not to give any credit to our academy. 

[AjcW]

1 hour ago, surrifox said:

We also have one of them, Barnes developing into a £40/50 mill player. You can see why the senior management at the club wouldn’t be in a hurry to scrap the status quo 

The status quo of none of those players getting near the first team before we let other sides develop them for us? 

 

Whilst i'd love to see every top prospect out on loan at a good side, it's not feasible, so we need to find a way of improving our middle ground (the U23 set up), whether that be by ditching the league and taking the Brentford approach (A B Team that play weekly friendlies against teams from all over the world) or whether we just get a new coaching team in more aligned with first team principles. 

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

Wasn't he let go by Arsenal? If he's been here 2 years then he must have improved here. Seems a bit churlish not to give any credit to our academy. 

He left off his own accord but there's some debate as to whether Arsenal really wanted to keep him. Quite an interesting article on him on The Athletic. Goes in to detail about how Rodgers and Kolo Toure persuaded him to join us rather than stay at Arsenal. 

 

Even if such players don't count as being developed much in our academy, I've been wanting to see us recruit more 16 - 19 year old who are ready to kick on and have a chance of getting in our first team within a year or so. That's why it's then important to have the clear pathway and style of play from like minded coaches throughout.

[AjcW]

The best youth coaches go on to be managers and first team coaches in their own right. We literally have one in charge of us  

 

Steve Cooper is a good example, from Liverpool to the England set up and now Manager at Swansea. 

 

Our Steve hasn't moved up, down or out in what? 18 years? That's the sign of a very comfortable man who knows he's onto a good thing. How does that translate onto the players ambition wise when you're coached by someone who has seemingly never seaked to better themselves? Come on now we've all worked with that one person in the office who is a bit shit but has been there 20 years and the company has no idea how to move them on  

 

I personally want us to have coaches at that level who are regularly interviewed for Championship management jobs, we SHOULD be having to replace them every couple of years and we should be proud of that fact. 

 

Look at the way it often works in Germany and Spain where the B-Team boss ends up being in charge of the first team eventually, wouldn't it be great if we could call upon that too? And they could then promote the talent they had been nurturing in the youth set up.

[UHDrive]

Maybe we should demote BR to replace Steve Beaglehole in the role he did at chelsea and run the development teams. Sorted 👍

[sacreblueits442]

3 hours ago, Webbo said:

Wasn't he let go by Arsenal? If he's been here 2 years then he must have improved here. Seems a bit churlish not to give any credit to our academy. 

....U23s the grave yard for players!!!

 As I  have previously stated Ian Wright was doing his nut, in regards to  Arsenal letting him go.

  A few posters have said they did not see that performance coming from him as he is not someone that shines in the U23s. 

  He seems to have something about him when supporting the attack, but prone to poor application when defending. 

 

[Foxy-Lady]

2 hours ago, AjcW said:

The best youth coaches go on to be managers and first team coaches in their own right. We literally have one in charge of us  

 

Steve Cooper is a good example, from Liverpool to the England set up and now Manager at Swansea. 

 

Our Steve hasn't moved up, down or out in what? 18 years? That's the sign of a very comfortable man who knows he's onto a good thing. How does that translate onto the players ambition wise when you're coached by someone who has seemingly never seaked to better themselves? Come on now we've all worked with that one person in the office who is a bit shit but has been there 20 years and the company has no idea how to move them on  

 

I personally want us to have coaches at that level who are regularly interviewed for Championship management jobs, we SHOULD be having to replace them every couple of years and we should be proud of that fact. 

 

Look at the way it often works in Germany and Spain where the B-Team boss ends up being in charge of the first team eventually, wouldn't it be great if we could call upon that too? And they could then promote the talent they had been nurturing in the youth set up.

Please tell me you're not proposing that Beaglehole should be Rodgers successor...?!?  

[AjcW]

Just now, Foxy-Lady said:

Please tell me you're not proposing that Beaglehole should be Rodgers successor...?!?  

 no quite the opposite.

 

In many ways i've always found it a shame that our go to caretaker has been Mike Stowell. Not knocking him as a coach, but really the U23/U18 managers should be ready to step up for a few games if required IMO

[Foxy-Lady]

2 hours ago, UHDrive said:

Maybe we should demote BR to replace Steve Beaglehole in the role he did at chelsea and run the development teams. Sorted 👍

Are you suggesting role reversal for BR and Beaglehole??   If so, at least we would have some amazing young talent coming through to help in our Div 1 relegation fight...! 

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, AjcW said:

The best youth coaches go on to be managers and first team coaches in their own right. We literally have one in charge of us  

 

Steve Cooper is a good example, from Liverpool to the England set up and now Manager at Swansea. 

 

Our Steve hasn't moved up, down or out in what? 18 years? That's the sign of a very comfortable man who knows he's onto a good thing. How does that translate onto the players ambition wise when you're coached by someone who has seemingly never seaked to better themselves? Come on now we've all worked with that one person in the office who is a bit shit but has been there 20 years and the company has no idea how to move them on  

 

I personally want us to have coaches at that level who are regularly interviewed for Championship management jobs, we SHOULD be having to replace them every couple of years and we should be proud of that fact. 

 

Look at the way it often works in Germany and Spain where the B-Team boss ends up being in charge of the first team eventually, wouldn't it be great if we could call upon that too? And they could then promote the talent they had been nurturing in the youth set up.

...I  would rather keep a Coach that is excellent than having to replace him every two year's!!

  So long as he brings innovation and is open mind in relation to new ideas and their implementation then I want that Coach to be here.

  Managers tend to last for about two years and what you would want is the continuity in regards to the academy players and not all Coaches are looking any further than where they feel they are adding value and are valued themselves. 

  Idiakez was a revered Coach at one time but we lost him and he went on to Derby then Luton, I would not be surprised if he did not have a hand in getting James Justin to our club.

  His departure I believe really set us back.

[Webbo]

Just now, sacreblueits442 said:

...I  would rather keep a Coach that is excellent than having to replace him every two year's!!

  So long as he brings innovation and is open mind in relation to new ideas and their implementation then I want that Coach to be here.

  Managers tend to last for about two years and what you would want is the continuity in regards to the academy players and not all Coaches are looking any further than where they feel they are adding value and are valued themselves. 

  Idiakez was a revered Coach at one time but we lost him and he went on to Derby then Luton, I would not be surprised if he did not have a hand in getting James Justin to our club.

  His departure I believe really set us back.

Leicester, Derby, Luton. That's not an upward trajectory. If he was that good, surely a bigger club would be employing him? 

 

I do feel some people in this thread are looking for things to moan about. In truth our academy is not doing bad. 

[sacreblueits442]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Leicester, Derby, Luton. That's not an upward trajectory. If he was that good, surely a bigger club would be employing him? 

 

I do feel some people in this thread are looking for things to moan about. In truth our academy is not doing bad. 

. .he is now a manager in the Spanish third tier!!!

 I was not looking at the trajectory of Coaches, what I am saying is if you have a great Coach keep him anyway you can.

  You do not have to be at a big club to be an outstanding Coach.

  If you took a poll regarding Dario Gradi who has stayed at Crewe for what seems like forever and you will see the esteem his coaching abilities are held in.

[UHDrive]

3 hours ago, Webbo said:

Leicester, Derby, Luton. That's not an upward trajectory. If he was that good, surely a bigger club would be employing him? 

 

I do feel some people in this thread are looking for things to moan about. In truth our academy is not doing bad. 

With respect our academy is pretty awful. Recruitment of players is one of the massive drawbacks right now and is an issue that I think requires a change in management structure and to include BR in decision making. Our development squad has been laid bare now that KDH, Muskwe and Wright have gone on loan to mediocre teams for experience (another issue)

 

If you look around at Chelsea's, Man City's and Arsenals development squads not only are they bringing in players from far and wide, but they are making money on those players they've brought in after they have been developed (aside from the ones they retain for first team action). We have nothing like that and moving into a state of the art training ground with the development squads in mind is absolutely pointless unless they change the way they source the players but moreso keep the squads lean and fit and with players ages not exceeding the teams they are assigned too.

 

Take into account all of the above and you have to point the finger at who is running the show (Rudkin etc) and to be in no doubt that we have dead wood in terms of coaches that need moving on and replaced.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, UHDrive said:

With respect our academy is pretty awful. Recruitment of players is one of the massive drawbacks right now and is an issue that I think requires a change in management structure and to include BR in decision making. Our development squad has been laid bare now that KDH, Muskwe and Wright have gone on loan to mediocre teams for experience (another issue)

 

If you look around at Chelsea's, Man City's and Arsenals development squads not only are they bringing in players from far and wide, but they are making money on those players they've brought in after they have been developed (aside from the ones they retain for first team action). We have nothing like that and moving into a state of the art training ground with the development squads in mind is absolutely pointless unless they change the way they source the players but moreso keep the squads lean and fit and with players ages not exceeding the teams they are assigned too.

 

Take into account all of the above and you have to point the finger at who is running the show (Rudkin etc) and to be in no doubt that we have dead wood in terms of coaches that need moving on and replaced.

I shouldn't really need to say this, but we're not Chelsea or Man City.