Next two games - Perfect Opportunity to Develop a New Ethos?

[Collymore]

Knowing Leicester and Rodgers, if our next two games were hard on paper against, let's say Chelsea at the Bridge and then Man U at Old Trafford,  we'd probably go and do the job on them and the ****show against Fulham would be long forgotten.

 

Ultimately this would probably mean we'd be back to square one when we played someone relatively easy again.

 

As it happens we have two games we'd be expected to win, yes they're away and Zora are probably better than they sound,  but still it's an opportunity to address this major problem we have developed playing weaker teams. 

 

I really hope that Rodgers is concentrating 100% on sorting this and we're going to make changes to the whole way we approach these games. 

 

If we end up playing it constantly across a back 5 for 180 minutes with no authority Thursday and Sunday then I give up. 

 

 

 

[deanolegend1989]

If he persists with this he’s going to start to get more and more pressure from fans.

I absolutely hate this formation in general but even more so with our current squad as we fit better into a 433 and this formation is not getting the best out of any of them.

 

He needs to change and hopefully he’s finally learnt his lesson. Sheffield Utd and Brighton are both must win games.
4141 change back, drop your ego Brendan and admit your wrong. A freak win at City doesn’t mean you change as a coach completely.
I’m really looking forward to seeing if he’s finally swallowed his pride and will change.

[Deeg67]

When they write the book on Rodgers’ managerial career, “Hopefully He’s Learned His Lesson” would be a great title.

Edited 2 December 2020 by Deeg67

[adejo92]

Theres no doubt he's a great technician but I wonder if he's just over thinking some of the lower teams.

 

We set up every single week like we're playing a top 4 team. 

[Deeg67]

You’re half right...

Edited 2 December 2020 by Deeg67

[davieG]

I should imagine his approach will change when has Ndidi, Castagne, Soyuncu and Pereira back to full fitness.

 

For a few games his current player limited formation worked fine but I suspect they where running on adrenaline towards the end until that ran out against Liverpool, they've played a game or two too far and that defense is completely knackered.

 

For all the talk of rotation we've had very little and certainly way less than we could have done with those 4 players available.

[Captain...]

When is he going to do all of the training and shape work to overhaul our formation? This has been a necessity due to injury and an insane schedule. They are barely doing any training as it is just game, recovery, game, recovery add in travelling to and back from Ukraine. Unless we treat the Zorya game as a friendly to try out a new shape and use the 5 subs to try and tweak our tactics. I expect he would rather use it as an opportunity to rest players. The problem against Fulham wasn't the formation, it was individual errors, losing possession cheaply and Praet diving in exposing Fofana for the first, and Fuchs diving in for their second. Fofana's inexplicable miss at 0-0 we could and should have won that game without getting out of third gear, but the players are tired and making mistakes.

[Xen]

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

When is he going to do all of the training and shape work to overhaul our formation? This has been a necessity due to injury and an insane schedule. They are barely doing any training as it is just game, recovery, game, recovery add in travelling to and back from Ukraine. Unless we treat the Zorya game as a friendly to try out a new shape and use the 5 subs to try and tweak our tactics. I expect he would rather use it as an opportunity to rest players. The problem against Fulham wasn't the formation, it was individual errors, losing possession cheaply and Praet diving in exposing Fofana for the first, and Fuchs diving in for their second. Fofana's inexplicable miss at 0-0 we could and should have won that game without getting out of third gear, but the players are tired and making mistakes.

The side against Fulham was uninspiring, sure, but it should still have been enough to win the game. After 2+ months of non-stop matches and very little downtime to train, however, and it starts to fray and that cost us big time. With a fully fit squad (even using the same lineup) I think we'd have fared better.

 

Hopefully now that we have a couple of less important midweek games and some key players returning, we'll actually be able to start rotating one or two players each game to keep things fresh and work more on tactics, rather than every between-game period being dedicated primarily to recovery. The schedule is unforgiving at the best of times and its been extra tough as we've had to use all of our squad depth which has left very little wiggle room, and we're not yet a regular in Europe so we're not (yet) equipped to deal with that in the same way that the likes of Man City and Liverpool are.

 

We're doing very well in the league despite the missed opportunities, so the real test for Rodgers is if he can turn our recent form around now that he has the resources to play the way he wants to again. It'll also be interesting to see if this feeds into transfer strategy for the new year and if we feel like we need to bring in a few new faces to improve our depth...

[foxinsocks]

The problem is that in some games we dont seem to have a solution.... we are like a golfer without a sand iron.  We should have different approaches to different situations

[fazzyfox]

I was as frustrated as anyone when I saw the line up, mainly because I'd say only 3 or at a stretch with Praet, 4 of our players offer a goal threat and it seems over cautious at the other end. He did come out and explain the formation after Fulham, that it's due to wanting a solid and settled shape in this period where we're missing the better defenders, like saying he doesn't fancy a back 4 with Justin & Thomas or Justin and Fuchs as the full backs. It could also be that the lesser experienced / lesser quality players aren't as adaptable to alternating formations from one game to the next. Thomas and to a lesser degree Justin are still learning the game so to be in one position one game then another four days later then another 3 days later is going to be hard to get a faultless performance from them as they adjust their positioning from full back to wing back and even CB in Justins case. Ultimately we need them to be able to be both but Thomas is 19 with a hand full of games behind him, very decent but not the finished product yet.

 

I am frustrated still but the fact Rodgers came out and addressed what was on our minds and offered an explanation is better than leaving bewilderment. Bewilderment like on my b***dy birthday a couple of years ago, home to Southampton and the team sheet comes out with 3 DM's Mendy, Ndidi and Choudhury. My reaction has gone down in The Kings Head folklore, lets just say it made Alf from Home and Away seem like a calm and measured character when in disagreement! And Puel never explained his thinking on that selection.

[Guest Fktf]

I think the 343 suits our squad (we have no wingers) the problem is we turn it into a 541 without the ball. Good when you're playing top teams, but against weaker teams it would be nice to take a risk and keep some players in support of vardy.

[murphy]

Every formation we have ever played has been criticised on here.  Whether it be Claudio and Shakey's 4-4-2, or Puel's 4-2-3-1 and now 3 at the back.  People have always argued that everything would be OK if only we changed the set up.

 

Every formation has it's strengths and weaknesses.  It's not the formation that is the problem imo, it's this Jekyll and Hyde team, we run and hot and cold.  We can look great on one game and hopeless the next.  I really don't understand it.

[foxinsocks]

5 minutes ago, murphy said:

Every formation we have ever played has been criticised on here.  Whether it be Claudio and Shakey's 4-4-2, or Puel's 4-2-3-1 and now 3 at the back.  People have always argued that everything would be OK if only we changed the set up.

 

Every formation has it's strengths and weaknesses.  It's not the formation that is the problem imo, it's this Jekyll and Hyde team, we run and hot and cold.  We can look great on one game and hopeless the next.  I really don't understand it.

Correct.  But I want a manager that has flexibility and can make a choice deo ding on the players available... the opposition... and the state of  the game

Edited 2 December 2020 by foxinsocks

[whoareyaaa]

instead of having Vardy as the only outlet to a goal I think we need to start with either Vardy and Nacho up top or Vardy with Barnes and Under either side.

 

something like this 

 

         Kasper
Justin Fofona Evans Thomas

 

      Mendy Tielemans

 

          Maddison
   Under          Barnes
            Vardy  

 

---- fully fit squad then you replace 

 

                 Kasper

Ricardo Fofona Cags Castange

 

     Mendy or Nididi Tielemans

 

           Maddison
    Under          Barnes
             Vardy  

Edited 2 December 2020 by whoareyaaa

[Collymore]

3 hours ago, Captain... said:

When is he going to do all of the training and shape work to overhaul our formation? This has been a necessity due to injury and an insane schedule. They are barely doing any training as it is just game, recovery, game, recovery add in travelling to and back from Ukraine. Unless we treat the Zorya game as a friendly to try out a new shape and use the 5 subs to try and tweak our tactics. I expect he would rather use it as an opportunity to rest players. The problem against Fulham wasn't the formation, it was individual errors, losing possession cheaply and Praet diving in exposing Fofana for the first, and Fuchs diving in for their second. Fofana's inexplicable miss at 0-0 we could and should have won that game without getting out of third gear, but the players are tired and making mistakes.

 

2 hours ago, murphy said:

Every formation we have ever played has been criticised on here.  Whether it be Claudio and Shakey's 4-4-2, or Puel's 4-2-3-1 and now 3 at the back.  People have always argued that everything would be OK if only we changed the set up.

 

Every formation has it's strengths and weaknesses.  It's not the formation that is the problem imo, it's this Jekyll and Hyde team, we run and hot and cold.  We can look great on one game and hopeless the next.  I really don't understand it.

...but it's not a one off, we've lost to Villa and West Ham previously, not to mention the countless times under Puel but we haven't learned the lesson. 

 

It's an obvious problem we have, but still we approach it in the same way. 

 

 

 

[Captain...]

2 hours ago, Collymore said:

 

...but it's not a one off, we've lost to Villa and West Ham previously, not to mention the countless times under Puel but we haven't learned the lesson. 

 

It's an obvious problem we have, but still we approach it in the same way. 

 

 

 

And we beat Man City, Arsenal, Wolves, Leeds, Braga. I get the horses for courses argument, but it is really difficult to play against teams that just sit back and defend and look to hit you on the counter. 

 

We can all play championship manager in our heads, but on the pitch it comes down to fine margins and it always ends up with getting sucked upfield and making mistakes. One missed pass, one missed tackle you're 1-0 down and facing an up hill struggle leaving yourself open to further counter attacks.

 

It's great we have identified the problem, but changing formation or personnel will not automatically fix it, we have had this problem for years whatever formation we play and in part it comes down to the fact we're not quite good enough to play incisive attacking football without leaving ourselves open to the counter.

 

 

[Guest SO1]

5 hours ago, davieG said:

I should imagine his approach will change when has Ndidi, Castagne, Soyuncu and Pereira back to full fitness.

 

For a few games his current player limited formation worked fine but I suspect they where running on adrenaline towards the end until that ran out against Liverpool, they've played a game or two too far and that defense is completely knackered.

 

For all the talk of rotation we've had very little and certainly way less than we could have done with those 4 players available.

  I'm sorry I'm afraid that just makes too much sense.

[urban fox]

I tend to agree that we are looking worn out. the "old guard" ie Fuchs, albrighton did a great job for the first few games but Christian in particular looked out on his feet. His training regime, and mental preparedness will have been geared towards stepping in for a few games here and there, being used as a sub/rotation player when needed, not playing three intensive games a week. We all know Vardy is the same age but he is a bit of a special case, and often drifts in and out of games, conserve energy for those short bursts, whereas at wing back there is little or no let up. I played at left back and if asked to perform a wing back role i was blowing out the wrong end after half an hour with the amount of ground you are expected to cover. it is one of the most energy intensive positions and we have been asking a 34 yr old who has limited playing time recently to do this. If we have no realistic option then we should use Fuchs as a third CB/FB and Albrighton as a more orthodox winger than wing backs.

That said, I still think we should have set up with a 433, or even 442 against Fulham and gone for them from the start. If we could have got an early goal, in most likelihood they would have lost belief and collapsed. 2-0 to us at half time and then we could have rotated, resting some of the forward players, bringing on the older heads, steadied the ship and coasted to a comfortable win.

With hindsight, and sitting in my armchair of course, its easy. Balancing expectations, a devastating injury list, fixture congestion and the needs of European competition with a mixture of kids and new signings still adapting to the PL and team, veterans who whilst still capable players are maybe past their fitness prime and a pandemic are a different matter altogether.

The next month will show us what BR and the players are really made of. Personally, i think we have what it takes, and when we are fully up to strength again, especially with the prospect of the new training ground now firmly on the horizon, i hope we will be still be challenging in the cups and for top six. If come February, we are not, then serious questions may well start to be asked.

[sacreblueits442]

41 minutes ago, Captain... said:

And we beat Man City, Arsenal, Wolves, Leeds, Braga. I get the horses for courses argument, but it is really difficult to play against teams that just sit back and defend and look to hit you on the counter. 

 

We can all play championship manager in our heads, but on the pitch it comes down to fine margins and it always ends up with getting sucked upfield and making mistakes. One missed pass, one missed tackle you're 1-0 down and facing an up hill struggle leaving yourself open to further counter attacks.

 

It's great we have identified the problem, but changing formation or personnel will not automatically fix it, we have had this problem for years whatever formation we play and in part it comes down to the fact we're not quite good enough to play incisive attacking football without leaving ourselves open to the counter.

 

 

...forgetting that the formation was a overly defensive, re-aligning the formation would have made a difference!!!

  To compensate we push the WBs up very high, leaving a gap to be exploited between the RCB and the same situation arising on the left hand side. We had the same issue in the Villa game in the Cup semi-final and replicated this again in the league encounter this season. We obviously have not understood and learned to keep the WBs closer to the CB negating the space which invites the opposition to take advantage, as we were being opened up over and over.

[Stadt]

Regardless of formation we look really poor in possession which is an issue, the West Ham and Fulham games were really similar and we set up differently which denotes we’ve got an underlying issue.

 

Personnel will remedy this to an extent but Rodgers needs to adjust our tendencies in possession

[HighPeakFox]

9 hours ago, davieG said:

I should imagine his approach will change when has Ndidi, Castagne, Soyuncu and Pereira back to full fitness.

 

For a few games his current player limited formation worked fine but I suspect they where running on adrenaline towards the end until that ran out against Liverpool, they've played a game or two too far and that defense is completely knackered.

 

For all the talk of rotation we've had very little and certainly way less than we could have done with those 4 players available.

Thank you DG - I was going to also make that point about adrenaline. 

[HighPeakFox]

1 hour ago, Stadt said:

Regardless of formation we look really poor in possession which is an issue, the West Ham and Fulham games were really similar and we set up differently which denotes we’ve got an underlying issue.

 

Personnel will remedy this to an extent but Rodgers needs to adjust our tendencies in possession

You're absolutely right, but I suspect with fresher legs and fitter bodies, a few of those tendencies will shrink.

[davieG]

9 hours ago, davieG said:

I should imagine his approach will change when has Ndidi, Castagne, Soyuncu and Pereira back to full fitness.

 

For a few games his current player limited formation worked fine but I suspect they where running on adrenaline towards the end until that ran out against Liverpool, they've played a game or two too far and that defense is completely knackered.

 

For all the talk of rotation we've had very little and certainly way less than we could have done with those 4 players available.

I think this quote from Rodgers sums up the situation

 

However, to have this level of player coming back, especially from a defensive side, it can just get us back working to how we want to work. "We’ve had to adapt during this early period of the season, in terms of our style and identity at times, but to get those players back, with their level of mobility and quality is really going to help us.

 

https://www.lcfc.com/news/1922688/rodgers-ricardo-sync--ndidi-in-contention-on-thursday?fbclid=IwAR0oMnpXMC_Yw-VKa5wbqhoyrJTk8gKdXjFl_UMxrRJJvU2QF1U88EeUR6o

[escape2victory]

8 hours ago, Fktf said:

I think the 343 suits our squad (we have no wingers) the problem is we turn it into a 541 without the ball. Good when you're playing top teams, but against weaker teams it would be nice to take a risk and keep some players in support of vardy.

Spot on. 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1 is NOT a defensive formation. The problem is you need excellent progressive wing backs to turn it into an attacking formation and not a back 5 which is what happens with Justin, Thomas or Albrighton as the wing backs. Put Ricardo and Castagne in there and we should be much more expansive in that set up