Grebfromgrebland Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 Laura look at it this way, how much higher in the league should we have finished this season? Should we have beaten Roma who is managed by Mourinho?
The Year Of The Fox Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 6 minutes ago, Babylon said: Two of those teams had, and now all three have greater "resources" than us now. Very basic errors, with some of his flaws perhaps compounded by the fact we've had to put together a makeshift back line for the vast majority of the season? Let alone the rest of the team. It’s small margins isn’t it. But in one of those games above all either Cags or Youri had to do was leather the ball out of play. Instead the ball was given away and we conceded in the last min. Resources are immaterial to those kinds of dropped points in my opinion
Babylon Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 Just now, The Year Of The Fox said: It’s small margins isn’t it. But in one of those games above all either Cags or Youri had to do was leather the ball out of play. Instead the ball was given away and we conceded in the last min. Resources are immaterial to those kinds of dropped points in my opinion If Soyuncu was a better player, he wouldn't be shit almost every other game. He's been a bomb scare since he arrived, barring a good spell after Maguire went. Resources buy you better, more consistent players. Unless Tieleman's can sort out his consistency, he'll be bench warming for the next few years also. It's not like we can point to many of our players and say X, Y and Z has proven themselves to be consistently reliable here or elsewhere, barring a few. If we'd not had injuries, I'd have expected a better season as Man U underperformed massively, so 6th place was up for grabs. But we're talking 1 or 2 places here at most.
Ric Flair Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 4 hours ago, Babylon said: Successful people also aren’t ****ing stupid and will know that unless you match the investment of everyone else you expect to challenge, you are most likely to be pissing in the wind 99% of the time. Notice how he said “fight” for cups and “return as soon as possible”. You think Rodgers doesn’t want that? It’s a patently vague statement. We've done it 3 times in 6 years, won the league and FA Cup along the way and when we do spend serious money we usually don't improve as a result. You're absolutely right that history is littered with proof that without serious money you can't keep doing what we've done but maybe we are just a freak club, we'd certainly not have achieved what we'd have done with a mentality that it cannot be done without major investment. 1
smudgerfox Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 Another really good thread section which goes beyond name calling. I agree with those that say historical comparison to judge entitlement/expectations is pretty meaningless. At our last high point - pre King Power - MON despaired of getting a forward to link up with Heskey. He got Collymore - they mullahed Sunderland together and within the week Heskey was sold. Brendan has not had to put up with anything as soul destroying as that …..I think we are entitled to expect more than under MoN for that reason … My main doubt about BR is - is he really a winner? Does he have the ruthless streak of Ferguson, Mourinho, to do what’s necessary? People will cite the FA Cup win as evidence but you also have the dismal Villa Carabao semi final , the no show in Roma and two Champions League places sacrificed for the want of a handful of points …he says he wants to sign silver medallists is that because deep down he’s happy to come second? 2
Foxxed Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 1 hour ago, Babylon said: What resources? A budget that would put us 8th/9th in the league anyway, or the players, most of which were missing for huge chunks of the season? I've been highly critical of him, I'm not a fan of the style, he has to answer for some of the injury issues, dud signings, weird decisions etc. But, we aren't really underperforming in terms of position considering the budget and the injuries we've had. 1 hour ago, splinterdream said: What are our resources though? I've just been discussing this in another thread. Best squad we've ever had. The only season for a while where we've not sold a big player. Yet the season has been one of the most forgettable for a long while. We finished worse than our previous two season with worse squads. Our quality of football has declined dramatically. Player form has plummet. We limped away from four cup in a rather pathetic manner. The season, with a constant injury crisis that follows Rodgers, with a first team who lose form regularly, with transfers that are unlikely to excel, lumped with a 30 million pound manager who plays down the club publicly, I'm not expecting much. But last season was a huge disappointment and shushing away questions as to why it was so bad as "entitlement" is just odd. 2
SafewayFox Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 I’ve always felt that we have opted for a successful business model over money (that’s Everton’s downfall). We have become a home for youngsters who are quality but for one reason or another haven’t been picked up by the “big 6” yet but clearly see a direct route there which only happens if they/we perform so an obvious incentive. Throw in our recent history - we clearly have raised hope for OUR club so unsure how that makes us entitled but perhaps at times it can come across that way. Personally, I don’t expect us to win each week just want that high pressing, exciting team to watch AND when it’s going wrong to not see Rodgers clapping like a loon and writing in his notebook but still not positively impacting the game (mid-match). 1
The Year Of The Fox Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 37 minutes ago, smudgerfox said: Another really good thread section which goes beyond name calling. I agree with those that say historical comparison to judge entitlement/expectations is pretty meaningless. At our last high point - pre King Power - MON despaired of getting a forward to link up with Heskey. He got Collymore - they mullahed Sunderland together and within the week Heskey was sold. Brendan has not had to put up with anything as soul destroying as that …..I think we are entitled to expect more than under MoN for that reason … My main doubt about BR is - is he really a winner? Does he have the ruthless streak of Ferguson, Mourinho, to do what’s necessary? People will cite the FA Cup win as evidence but you also have the dismal Villa Carabao semi final , the no show in Roma and two Champions League places sacrificed for the want of a handful of points …he says he wants to sign silver medallists is that because deep down he’s happy to come second? I wanted to add to my comments but refrained until you brought up historical managers Under Pearson in our first season back in the PL, I was totally behind him, even when we were losing every week. That’s not being self entitled. It’s appreciating that we were a newly promoted team that hadn’t had the rub of the green for large portions of that season. We’d actually played quite well most of the time, but couldn’t stop losing. My expectations have certainly changed from since that 2014/15 season. Why wouldn’t they? That’s not self entitlement either. It’s moving with the times. It might be worth those branding ‘self entitlement’ to also move with the times. If you don’t move with the times, Forest wouldn’t have been concerned about being promoted, they’d have been concerned about when they were next winning the European Cup. If you don’t move with the times, Man City would’ve been more concerned about when they were next winning Division 3 and not the Champions League. 2
Guest454545 Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 1 hour ago, smudgerfox said: Another really good thread section which goes beyond name calling. I agree with those that say historical comparison to judge entitlement/expectations is pretty meaningless. At our last high point - pre King Power - MON despaired of getting a forward to link up with Heskey. He got Collymore - they mullahed Sunderland together and within the week Heskey was sold. Brendan has not had to put up with anything as soul destroying as that …..I think we are entitled to expect more than under MoN for that reason … My main doubt about BR is - is he really a winner? Does he have the ruthless streak of Ferguson, Mourinho, to do what’s necessary? People will cite the FA Cup win as evidence but you also have the dismal Villa Carabao semi final , the no show in Roma and two Champions League places sacrificed for the want of a handful of points …he says he wants to sign silver medallists is that because deep down he’s happy to come second? He also won every domestic trophy he was in for at Celtic. Why doesn't that factor into the equation here?
Dusty Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 I think most of us are disappointed with how last season went, some more than others. On the face of it there were positives, but I think the truth is that it was a struggle and lots of things went wrong. I’d argue, that the players, manager, coaches, medical team and recruitment team had an off season, so it would have been difficult to do well with all those components under performing. I’m willing to accept that these seasons happen which is why I’m happy for Rodgers to continue for the time being. Every single team in world football has bad seasons and times where things don’t go to plan. There were some extremes this season e.g. defending leads, defending set pieces, really ineffective signings which if not rectified next season, then I can see the need to make changes across the board. 2
sacreblueits442 Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 6 hours ago, fuchsntf said: Yeh..but you Must t agree. Rodgers & players got it all right up to that moment...for that Type & moment of error, it was 'Their season' The shit around Rodgers for that season is just that ,Gerrade mistakes cost them ..Not Rodgers.. ....just for information...!!! A run of 11-straight wins for Liverpool left them five points clear at the top of the Premier League with just three matches to play.[59] However, they then suffered a 2–0 home defeat to Chelsea on 27 April.[60] This result handed the advantage to Manchester City in the title race. In their next game away to Crystal Palace on 5 May, Liverpool led 3–0 with 11 minutes to go, but the game finished 3–3.[61] Liverpool ended the season as Premier League runners-up, two points behind champions Manchester City.[62]
Popular Post winteriscoming Posted 4 June 2022 Popular Post Posted 4 June 2022 Obviously you would take 5th at the start of the season. However we were 3rd in the first season 14 points clear at one stage and then the second season 10 points clear and both times we managed to mess it up and finish 5th. Put me down as an entitled fan if you want but I pissed off on both occasions to miss out on cl football. 7
Babylon Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 2 hours ago, Ric Flair said: We've done it 3 times in 6 years, won the league and FA Cup along the way and when we do spend serious money we usually don't improve as a result. You're absolutely right that history is littered with proof that without serious money you can't keep doing what we've done but maybe we are just a freak club, we'd certainly not have achieved what we'd have done with a mentality that it cannot be done without major investment. Nobody said it can’t be done, aim as high as you can do. But also, be bloody realistic. 3
smudgerfox Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Guest454545 said: He also won every domestic trophy he was in for at Celtic. Why doesn't that factor into the equation here? I think because it isn’t that difficult for Celtic to win domestic trophies especially when Rangers are hobbled. Perhaps a better test is what they did in Europe - which was get thrashed by big opponents and occasionally drop points to minnows. The recruitment was apparently particularly poor. For all the success he brought them, Celtic fans aren’t that impressed with his record there - see Muzzy Larsson posts. … Edited 4 June 2022 by smudgerfox 2
fuchsntf Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 1 hour ago, smudgerfox said: I think because it isn’t that difficult for Celtic to win domestic trophies especially when Rangers are hobbled. Perhaps a better test is what they did in Europe - which was get thrashed by big opponents and occasionally drop points to minnows. The recruitment was apparently particularly poor. For all the success he brought them, Celtic fans aren’t that impressed with his record there - see Muzzy Larsson posts. … But Muzzy Larsson, is one man, he ain't the spirit of. Xxxk amount of fans..
Guest Col city fan Posted 4 June 2022 Posted 4 June 2022 I do hope we strengthen the squad. We’ve seen so clearly this season that if we have a few of the first team out, we struggle. Especially in defence. The goals conceded since we’ve had Fofana back have got right down. Before, they were abysmal. And other clubs around us will strengthen. Villa are doing it already. They are clearly backing Gerrard with money to kick on. This squad needs freshening up. There are players we need to move on and other positions need strengthening. The longer we go without being linked with replacements, the more concerned some will become. It’s already started…
Nod.E Posted 5 June 2022 Posted 5 June 2022 10 hours ago, Dusty said: I think most of us are disappointed with how last season went, some more than others. On the face of it there were positives, but I think the truth is that it was a struggle and lots of things went wrong. I’d argue, that the players, manager, coaches, medical team and recruitment team had an off season, so it would have been difficult to do well with all those components under performing. I’m willing to accept that these seasons happen which is why I’m happy for Rodgers to continue for the time being. Every single team in world football has bad seasons and times where things don’t go to plan. There were some extremes this season e.g. defending leads, defending set pieces, really ineffective signings which if not rectified next season, then I can see the need to make changes across the board. But apart from that it was alright 3
Popular Post smudgerfox Posted 5 June 2022 Popular Post Posted 5 June 2022 12 hours ago, fuchsntf said: But Muzzy Larsson, is one man, he ain't the spirit of. Xxxk amount of fans.. No he isn’t but he seems knowledgable to me. He actually went through the BR/LC recruitment in one post and there were similar patterns - new signings who made little impact to the point you wondered why they were signed in the first place. A team which relied heavily on players he inherited. Some of the performances in Europe were familiar - heavy capitulations, inability to break down determinedly defensive and essentially poor opponents. Add in the poor defensive record of BRs Liverpool team who threw away the PL in the last throes of the season and you do have some striking similarities. The facts are there if you bother to look for them. 5 2
volpeazzurro Posted 5 June 2022 Posted 5 June 2022 16 hours ago, Guest454545 said: He also won every domestic trophy he was in for at Celtic. Why doesn't that factor into the equation here? Probably because he'd have had to have been a completely useless chump not to have achieved that given the team he had and the level of the opposition at that time. The test would have been would he have faired any better when Rangers came back and won it as they did? 2
volpeazzurro Posted 5 June 2022 Posted 5 June 2022 27 minutes ago, smudgerfox said: No he isn’t but he seems knowledgable to me. He actually went through the BR/LC recruitment in one post and there were similar patterns - new signings who made little impact to the point you wondered why they were signed in the first place. A team which relied heavily on players he inherited. Some of the performances in Europe were familiar - heavy capitulations, inability to break down determinedly defensive and essentially poor opponents. Add in the poor defensive record of BRs Liverpool team who threw away the PL in the last throes of the season and you do have some striking similarities. The facts are there if you bother to look for them. Strangely uncanny really. Almost as if history was repeating itself 😁 3
Guest454545 Posted 5 June 2022 Posted 5 June 2022 1 hour ago, volpeazzurro said: Probably because he'd have had to have been a completely useless chump not to have achieved that given the team he had and the level of the opposition at that time. The test would have been would he have faired any better when Rangers came back and won it as they did? The test was getting us back into the Champions League. Which he did, twice. The Champions League was the key, because otherwise there wasn't any reason to get rid of Deila, as he had the domestic success to warrant being kept on. Further, he didn't just win the league. He won everything in the domestic competition without losing a game. Bottlers don't achieve things like that.
foxinsocks Posted 5 June 2022 Posted 5 June 2022 (edited) When I watch Rodgers interviews he seems to be deflecting. He is more careful now as he got his fingers burned by suggesting the players were at fault... or that the fans are entitled. But he seems to have a veneer. So what is it he wont admit to? He would be more likeable if he admitted that he needs to look at his own decisions and tactics. Yet his narrative is all about spinning his achievements at Leicester (... kind of reprising his lastest draft). Truth is that his recuitment record is very poor... yet his direction now will depend on recruitment. I expect we will make changes ...and struggle. I think he does too which is why he is polishing his narative. Edited 5 June 2022 by foxinsocks 2
volpeazzurro Posted 5 June 2022 Posted 5 June 2022 57 minutes ago, Guest454545 said: The test was getting us back into the Champions League. Which he did, twice. The Champions League was the key, because otherwise there wasn't any reason to get rid of Deila, as he had the domestic success to warrant being kept on. Further, he didn't just win the league. He won everything in the domestic competition without losing a game. Bottlers don't achieve things like that. Surely Champions League football was merely a giveaway with domestic success. Bearing in mind there was no viable usual foe in the shape of a strong Rangers side, can you say who the real and genuine threat to Celtic was over that period, not for the odd game, but over an entire season? Given the strength of such viable opposition, surely a domestic clean sweep is more of a logical expectation rather than a period of superhuman managerial expertise, therefore bottling it isn't really an issue because there was no real threat or pressure to buckle under, just merely control overconfidence and get people to perform reasonably to par. Even on an off day they should still be winning. Only (understandably) in ardent supporters eyes would they have been seen as hard earned achievements. 2
murphy Posted 5 June 2022 Posted 5 June 2022 18 hours ago, winteriscoming said: Obviously you would take 5th at the start of the season. However we were 3rd in the first season 14 points clear at one stage and then the second season 10 points clear and both times we managed to mess it up and finish 5th. Put me down as an entitled fan if you want but I pissed off on both occasions to miss out on cl football. It still stings, even now, for me. Mainly because chance to qualify for The CL for a club like ours is practically unheard of and we blew it. Twice. It would also have had a massive impact on the quality of player we could have attracted instead of the woeful summer window of last year. That said I take some solace from watching West Ham spend the majority of the season in fourth and end up seventh. Perhaps it is almost impossible for clubs without the depth of squads of the big six to sustain top four quality over the course of a season? Especially with European commitments. We did it once of course but miracles are only called miracles because they are extremely rare. Plus we had virtually no injuries that season. 2 1
winteriscoming Posted 5 June 2022 Posted 5 June 2022 8 minutes ago, murphy said: It still stings, even now, for me. Mainly because chance to qualify for The CL for a club like ours is practically unheard of and we blew it. Twice. It would also have had a massive impact on the quality of player we could have attracted instead of the woeful summer window of last year. That said I take some solace from watching West Ham spend the majority of the season in fourth and end up seventh. Perhaps it is almost impossible for clubs without the depth of squads of the big six to sustain top four quality over the course of a season? Especially with European commitments. We did it once of course but miracles are only called miracles because they are extremely rare. Plus we had virtually no injuries that season. Agree. That first season you can’t even argue about fixture congestion as we weren’t even in Europe. Majority of the media and pundits had us down to finish 3rd. You’d of hoped we’d of learnt from it for the second season but no same again. I can’t see us getting the opportunity again to get into the top 4. It’s getting more difficult every season. Realistically Europa places is where we should be looking.
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