England v Croatia match thread

[BenTheFox]

I think people are a bit harsh on Southgate. Whenever we beat a team that we're supposed to beat it's taken for granted (Croatia aren't a bad side), but under Hodgson and Capello we often didn't beat teams that we were supposed to. I know it's a low bar but he certainly has more about him as England manager than Hodgson, Capello, McClaren or Sven did. 

[cheshamfox17]

1 hour ago, foxes_rule1978 said:

Exactly I can’t understand how anyone at all can claim croatia deserved anything from that. They were fully outplayed and tactical out thought today. They posed no real threat to our goal. 

I know people have their doubt about xG but it had croatia at like 0.33, and England at 1.60 so as you say they posed no risk and no way would a draw have been a fair result

Edited 13 June 2021 by cheshamfox17

[BenTheFox]

I don't think it was this commanding performance that certain pundits are making it out to be, but there's no way anyone can seriously suggest that Croatia deserved something out of that game. 

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Col city fan said:

1 shot off target in 50 mins mate. Cmon 

Right.. and? 

 

So the 4 chances we created in Foden, Sterling x 2 and Kane should be discounted because after 50 mins we'd only had 1 shot " off target " ? Foden had hit the post and Phillips had had a decent effort but regardless you've made a statement about us over the whole game and then seemingly the reason you aren't happy is because 1st half we didn't create much after a bright 15 mins?

 

It was a solid start, nothing special but way better than most of the muck Southgate instigates with this squad. 

[Ric Flair]

27 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

I think people are a bit harsh on Southgate. Whenever we beat a team that we're supposed to beat it's taken for granted (Croatia aren't a bad side), but under Hodgson and Capello we often didn't beat teams that we were supposed to. I know it's a low bar but he certainly has more about him as England manager than Hodgson, Capello, McClaren or Sven did. 

I think the issue is that we had a year pist Russia 2018 where he really kicked us on and we played some very good progressive football. Then weirdly he went ultra defensive and made us worse defensively in the process.

 

People can talk about vindication of the last year or two of this double pivot turgid honkothon but everything ought to have been pointing towards changing it as the nations league we were an absolute disgrace, some of the worst football I've seen from us in 2 decades it was borderline Graham Taylor stuff and the personnel he picked was mystifying at times too.

 

Now if it suddenly works then fair enough but I still see very little logic to it. International football management is about not making things hard for yourself but there's a handful of players thst at club football of this was a 26 man squad of players then if you asked 20 of the top managers in the world the majority of them would be picking a completely different team and system to Party Gareth. 

 

But I'll suspend my judgement right now as the one thing he is good at is trying to create something for the nation to be proud of and I'm still desperate for him and us to do well even if at times I hate him beyond belief.

[Col city fan]

1 hour ago, BoyJones said:

Game plan was good and the team got the job done without too many scares. I was just sorry for Kane as we seemed to play with a false 8, 9 and 10, he was almost a passenger in the system we played. We didn’t have a Son type player to bring HK into the game, thereby not playing to Kane’s strengths; once Foden drifted out of the game, Kane should have been substituted earlier as 

 

Croatia are no mugs but thought they gave us too much respect, teams like France and Germany won’t so GS needs to make sure our more genuine world class players play a more integral part of the game instead of being wasted on the periphery. 
 

Obviously pleased with the result, but just wonder how we’ll cope with a team that overruns us and actually tries to win. 

Spot on 

[Sunbury Fox]

2 hours ago, BoyJones said:

Game plan was good and the team got the job done without too many scares. I was just sorry for Kane as we seemed to play with a false 8, 9 and 10, he was almost a passenger in the system we played. We didn’t have a Son type player to bring HK into the game, thereby not playing to Kane’s strengths; once Foden drifted out of the game, Kane should have been substituted earlier as 

 

Croatia are no mugs but thought they gave us too much respect, teams like France and Germany won’t so GS needs to make sure our more genuine world class players play a more integral part of the game instead of being wasted on the periphery. 
 

Obviously pleased with the result, but just wonder how we’ll cope with a team that overruns us and actually tries to win. 

In answer to your question at the end, we'll lose. In a tournament game, I wouldn't fancy us against any of the teams we will meet in the round of 16 ie France, Germany or Portugal.

[Super_horns]

It reminded me so much of our performances last season in a way. 

 

A solid defensive display with the midfield performing well but not too many efforts in attack although Foden hit the post and Kane had a chance blocked  at the far post.

 

Not a totally fluid performance but did more than enough to win and hardly had any threat to our goal. 

[fuchsntf]

4 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

I think the issue is that we had a year pist Russia 2018 where he really kicked us on and we played some very good progressive football. Then weirdly he went ultra defensive and made us worse defensively in the process.

 

People can talk about vindication of the last year or two of this double pivot turgid honkothon but everything ought to have been pointing towards changing it as the nations league we were an absolute disgrace, some of the worst football I've seen from us in 2 decades it was borderline Graham Taylor stuff and the personnel he picked was mystifying at times too.

 

Now if it suddenly works then fair enough but I still see very little logic to it. International football management is about not making things hard for yourself but there's a handful of players thst at club football of this was a 26 man squad of players then if you asked 20 of the top managers in the world the majority of them would be picking a completely different team and system to Party Gareth. 

 

But I'll suspend my judgement right now as the one thing he is good at is trying to create something for the nation to be proud of and I'm still desperate for him and us to do well even if at times I hate him beyond belief.

but there's a handful of players thst at club football of this was a 26 man squad of players then if you asked 20 of the top managers in the world the majority of them would be picking a completely different team and system to Party Gareth. 

 

Isn t this often the case..aka Alf Ramsey..!!

I see where you are Coming from, & no matter what you post over the years at least your not a doom merchant, even if disagreeing on selection...

A manager lives or dies on his achievements through his selections....

Southgate started so well & Fresh, took a massive hit on injuries with his First chosen,since then he does seem to present  Teams that contradicts

that frontfoot & quick movement he started his International career out on.

Sterling like Barnes seems so up for some Magic only to deceive..

To be fair hes giving our youngsters their reins...Foden/Mount..2 young CL-finalists.A young midfield.

Southgate doesn't have to win it ,But hes got to Show with "his" selections ( Not the fans-selection) He can deliver a Cutting edge,entertaining England team,that

can go Deep into tournaments...Especially Now our PL is actually producing some decent young English talent & Not just or alone Foreign-travellers...

Edited 14 June 2021 by fuchsntf

[ScrumpyJack]

The anti-Southgate agenda is classic FoxesTalk. Same agenda that has been spouted nearly every day since Rodgers got the job.

 

God forbid any manager does anything other than Pearson’s “throw everything and the kitchen sink plus finish the game with 5 strikers” tactics. 

[AjcW]

Although he makes some frustrating decisions, he's the right man at the right time for this group of players.

 

Don't think anyone can deny he's clearly a superb man manager and for me that's the key with such a young group.

 

I'd like us to hire some more attack minded heads around him though, the coaches in the set up are all good defensive tacticians (Jones, Powell etc) but there's no flair there, no one who could come up with an idea 1-0 down with 20 mins to go and that concerns me. 

 

I was a bit annoyed he didn't hook Walker at half time, he was having a shocker and continued to after HT.

 

Will be interesting to see the line up for the Scotland game, Trippier at RB and Shaw at LB would be my only change to be honest. If Sterling hadn't scored then he might have dropped out, but it's ideal for Gareth now as he loves him and has an excuse to start him from this point on. 

[Fox92]

13 hours ago, foxes_rule1978 said:

A draw, we hit the post… Sterling missed a couple of clear chances… croatia had the odd pop shot that caused no panic 

 

13 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Foden hit the post, Kane misses from 2 yards and Sterling had another glorious chance.  There may have been other chances I've forgotten too, we were much the more dangerous in a very middle of the road performance. A solid start.

Think I was harsh looking back. Still stand by that we were on top for first 15 mins, Foden hit the post, then Croatia settled and controlled the ball more but I suppose, looking back, they didn't do much with it (that said, 50% possession each according to the stats.)

 

Suppose I am more critical of England than I would be of Leicester. Maybe they've just ground everything out of me. But still, pleased with the win and hope we hammer Scotland. Plus that will see us through.

[Fox92]

1 hour ago, ScrumpyJack said:

The anti-Southgate agenda is classic FoxesTalk. Same agenda that has been spouted nearly every day since Rodgers got the job.

 

God forbid any manager does anything other than Pearson’s “throw everything and the kitchen sink plus finish the game with 5 strikers” tactics. 

Don't think Nige ever did that tbf.

[filbertway]

I'm really interested to see if Croatia are that poor or if we made them look toothless. I was shocked that they barely laid a glove on us all game.

 

Phillips was a stand out performer although, it was only 2 or 3 bits of above average play that has elevated him to that. 2 teams that were scared to death of losing and a bit of quality and quick thinking has been the difference.

 

Felt very much like watching the last 3 months of Leicester  The only difference is that the England version of Perez managed to finish his chance.

 

To be fair though, the heat was ridiculous, so it's understandable that the game wasn't played at a frantic pace. Solid start to the tournament though, I'd like to see Grealish come in for Sterling. Walker to the bench and a left back to play at left back. Phillips playing ahead of Rice rather than the Mendy/Ndidi style double pivot worked quite nicely. I'd probably go with a more naturally attack minded player than Phillips in there against Scotland and Czech Republic. 

 

 

 

[Col city fan]

35 minutes ago, filbertway said:

I'm really interested to see if Croatia are that poor or if we made them look toothless. I was shocked that they barely laid a glove on us all game.

 

Phillips was a stand out performer although, it was only 2 or 3 bits of above average play that has elevated him to that. 2 teams that were scared to death of losing and a bit of quality and quick thinking has been the difference.

 

Felt very much like watching the last 3 months of Leicester  The only difference is that the England version of Perez managed to finish his chance.

 

To be fair though, the heat was ridiculous, so it's understandable that the game wasn't played at a frantic pace. Solid start to the tournament though, I'd like to see Grealish come in for Sterling. Walker to the bench and a left back to play at left back. Phillips playing ahead of Rice rather than the Mendy/Ndidi style double pivot worked quite nicely. I'd probably go with a more naturally attack minded player than Phillips in there against Scotland and Czech Republic. 

 

 

 

I was looking back through some of the goals of recent World Cups and Euros and Croatia were a phenomenal side at times.

A lot of the players yesterday were literally the same as 6/7 years ago.

The likes of Peresic for example, scored some sensational international goals

Yesterday they were an absolute shadow of their former selves. I can’t recall the front three hardly having a kick, let alone shots.

Again, the question is how much was that due to us being VERY solid and how much down to them being genuinely awful?

Time will tell 

[Blue ROI]

2 hours ago, filbertway said:

I'm really interested to see if Croatia are that poor or if we made them look toothless. I was shocked that they barely laid a glove on us all game.

 

Phillips was a stand out performer although, it was only 2 or 3 bits of above average play that has elevated him to that. 2 teams that were scared to death of losing and a bit of quality and quick thinking has been the difference.

 

Felt very much like watching the last 3 months of Leicester  The only difference is that the England version of Perez managed to finish his chance.

 

To be fair though, the heat was ridiculous, so it's understandable that the game wasn't played at a frantic pace. Solid start to the tournament though, I'd like to see Grealish come in for Sterling. Walker to the bench and a left back to play at left back. Phillips playing ahead of Rice rather than the Mendy/Ndidi style double pivot worked quite nicely. I'd probably go with a more naturally attack minded player than Phillips in there against Scotland and Czech Republic. 

 

 

 

Croatia were very ordinary but for a country of their size there is always a danger of boom and bust cycles.  They reached the height of their powers at 2018 but are growing old now.

 

The jury is still out on England though. Granted they have slightly improved from the years between 2006-16 but thats a low bar. Too often they have been less than the sum of their parts whilst they play a team who get the max out of themselves. (Germany 2010,Italy 2012, Iceland 2016).

 

They have a strong squad but they are let down by having a company man like Garf in charge.7 players from the so called top 6 sides in the starting team yesterday. If Maguire was fit he'd start ahead of Mings and its down to the fact that there is no keeper playing in the top 6 (Henderson aside) that Pickford is first choice.  Philips was excellent yesterday but he nearly seems like a token gesture to the non-elite clubs.A more accident than design look to it. 

 

Maddison was called out for his attitude. Though something we can agree on wrt to Southgate there wasn't much outrage at one of the top 6 players controversies.

 

In addition to that England have not beaten one of the elite sides in a tournament for some time. How they fare against an Italy,Spain,Germany or France will decide how much progress they have made.

 

Edited 14 June 2021 by Blue ROI

[Fox92]

44 minutes ago, Blue ROI said:

Croatia were very ordinary but for a country of their size there is always a danger of boom and bust cycles.  They reached the height of their powers at 2018 but are growing old now.

 

The jury is still out on England though. Granted they have slightly improved from the years between 2006-16 but thats a low bar. Too often they have been less than the sum of their parts whilst they play a team who get the max out of themselves. (Germany 2010,Italy 2012, Iceland 2016).

 

They have a strong squad but they are let down by having a company man like Garf in charge.7 players from the so called top 6 sides in the starting team yesterday. If Maguire was fit he'd start ahead of Mings and its down to the fact that there is no keeper playing in the top 6 (Henderson aside) that Pickford is first choice.  Philips was excellent yesterday but he nearly seems like a token gesture to the non-elite clubs.A more accident than design look to it. 

 

Maddison was called out for his attitude. Though something we can agree on wrt to Southgate there wasn't much outrage at one of the top 6 players controversies.

 

In addition to that England have not beaten one of the elite sides in a tournament for some time. How they fare against an Italy,Spain,Germany or France will decide how much progress they have made.

 

I never understand this. I don't rate Southgate as a manager but he doesn't just pick top 6 players. Maguire has been the main centre half for this Country since he was here, at Leicester. Chilwell was the main left back when he was here also.

 

Henderson plays for a top 6 club, and there were a few calls for him to start, but he went with Pickford. I dare say Pope maybe ahead of Henderson too (which I think would be correct as Pope is our best goalkeeper).

 

Phillips is a good player and has been involved since Leeds got promoted back to the PL.

 

Who would you select from a non top 6 club? For me I think Watkins should have gone, but considering we play 1 up top he's not ahead of Kane. I just think this seems like a stick every England manager is beaten with.

Edited 14 June 2021 by Fox92

[BenTheFox]

12 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

I never understand this. I don't rate Southgate as a manager but he doesn't just pick top 6 players. Maguire has been the main centre half for this Country since he was here, at Leicester. Chilwell was the main left back when he was here also.

 

Henderson plays for a top 6 club, and there were a few calls for him to start, but he went with Pickford. I dare say Pope maybe ahead of Henderson too (which I think would be correct as Pope is our best goalkeeper).

 

Phillips is a good player and has been involved since Leeds got promoted back to the PL.

 

Who would you select from a non top 6 club? For me I think Watkins should have gone, but considering we play 1 up top he's not ahead of Kane. I just think this seems like a stick every England manager is beaten with.

Completely agree. Southgate has been much better than Hodgson in this respect. 

 

I also hear people say 'Southgate wouldn't get a Premier league job'. Maybe he wouldn't but Roy Hodgson has proven himself to be a respectable Premier league manager and Southgate has undoubtedly done a better job as England manager. Football management is horses for courses. 

[foxes1988]

Jesus some of you are negative.

 

It was an encouraging win.  We weren't great but we were certainly not poor.  I definitely think they.re where things to question or complain about but some of you lot are expecting way too much from international teams.  Your don't have day after day on the training field to work on things and you cannot just transfer in a Bruno Fernandes or Van Persie ala man Utd  2020 & 2012 to fix things when it isn't quite going right.

 

Southgate has had a week together with most of the first team and most other nations have only had a week longer then that.  International football is usually pretty tight between the top 20 nations.    When France won the world cup they didn't do it by ripping teams apart and neither did Portugal in 2016.

 

We were positive first 20 minutes of both half and mixed play up nicely playing through Croatia and over and around them at times.  Phillips and Rice looked goods together didn't expect such a progressive/dynamic display from Phillips and Mings was much more solid then we thought.  Gareth also didn't go with a back five which is definitely the right decision.

 

Negatives for me were that we did the usual thing of backing off for the last 20 minutes after taking a narrow lead.  Whilst i didn't want us to throw everything at them we just allowed them control of midfield.  We should have tried to compete in midfield at times a little more. 

 

Also in 28c heat and in a tournament being played after almost a year of solid football Southgate only made 3 subs when he could have made 5 and he made 2 of them very late.  IMO he should have made 2 or 3 subs when Bellingham cam on and made that change about 5 10 minutes earlier.  This is a rather small grip though the bigger worry is if we try and hang onto narrow leads later in into the tournament.

 

Overall though think we should definitely be happy with the performance and result

 

 

 

[Blue ROI]

2 hours ago, Fox92 said:

I never understand this. I don't rate Southgate as a manager but he doesn't just pick top 6 players. Maguire has been the main centre half for this Country since he was here, at Leicester. Chilwell was the main left back when he was here also.

 

Henderson plays for a top 6 club, and there were a few calls for him to start, but he went with Pickford. I dare say Pope maybe ahead of Henderson too (which I think would be correct as Pope is our best goalkeeper).

 

Phillips is a good player and has been involved since Leeds got promoted back to the PL.

 

Who would you select from a non top 6 club? For me I think Watkins should have gone, but considering we play 1 up top he's not ahead of Kane. I just think this seems like a stick every England manager is beaten with.

I would have said that's a fair point but it was even worse for picking from the bigger clubs in 2018. Maguire was almost the token non elite player of that tournament. Vardy was never given a fair go.

 

I'd agree that Pope is good too FWIW.

 

I'd have Watkins there aswell but Calvert-lewin will likely get the same treatment as Vardy. I don't believe Kane is all that but he'll still get preferential treatment when push comes to shove.

 

 

 

 

[Fox92]

56 minutes ago, Blue ROI said:

I would have said that's a fair point but it was even worse for picking from the bigger clubs in 2018. Maguire was almost the token non elite player of that tournament. Vardy was never given a fair go.

 

I'd agree that Pope is good too FWIW.

 

I'd have Watkins there aswell but Calvert-lewin will likely get the same treatment as Vardy. I don't believe Kane is all that but he'll still get preferential treatment when push comes to shove.

 

 

 

 

17 out of 23 players in 2018 were from the so called top 6 but I can't think back to who else should have gone instead, too long ago. 

 

Did Vardy ever play under Southgate? I agree he was never given a fair go but I also wonder why you would retire on the back of that. Scholes and Carragher did the same thing but I've always found it strange. Trouble is we only play one up front so Kane is always gonna get the nod because he is World Class, I don't understand how you can't think he is "all that" when he scores 20+ goals a season in a top division. Even though I am a big fan of Danny Ings, Kane is miles ahead of other English forwards that we can pick from.

 

But on Maguire I'm sure he played every game in the World Cup didn't he? Country went mad for him, and he was at a non top 6 club.

[Col city fan]

19 hours ago, Col city fan said:

Definitely not Scotland 

Scotland are bang average at International level and we’ve got punters both on here and much wider who are suggesting England could win this tournament.

We should smash the Scots, and stop bigging them up to be something they aren’t.

As I said before, if we can’t beat Scotland we don’t deserve to win the tournament.

Scotland btw are currently 200-1 to win the tournament 

Can we please stop bigging Scotland up in this tournament

We should coast past them and put them out of the tournament later this week 

It’s looking like us and the Czechs to quality 

[BenTheFox]

6 hours ago, Blue ROI said:

I would have said that's a fair point but it was even worse for picking from the bigger clubs in 2018. Maguire was almost the token non elite player of that tournament. Vardy was never given a fair go.

 

I'd agree that Pope is good too FWIW.

 

I'd have Watkins there aswell but Calvert-lewin will likely get the same treatment as Vardy. I don't believe Kane is all that but he'll still get preferential treatment when push comes to shove.

 

 

 

 

I don't understand this whole 'token non elite player' stuff. Southgate, more than his predecessors has given opportunities to player who don't play at the top clubs. Besides, of course the England manager is going to select players from the clubs that compete at the the top end of the table. They usually have the best players! 

[Bert]

10 hours ago, Blue ROI said:

Croatia were very ordinary but for a country of their size there is always a danger of boom and bust cycles.  They reached the height of their powers at 2018 but are growing old now.

 

The jury is still out on England though. Granted they have slightly improved from the years between 2006-16 but thats a low bar. Too often they have been less than the sum of their parts whilst they play a team who get the max out of themselves. (Germany 2010,Italy 2012, Iceland 2016).

 

They have a strong squad but they are let down by having a company man like Garf in charge.7 players from the so called top 6 sides in the starting team yesterday. If Maguire was fit he'd start ahead of Mings and its down to the fact that there is no keeper playing in the top 6 (Henderson aside) that Pickford is first choice.  Philips was excellent yesterday but he nearly seems like a token gesture to the non-elite clubs.A more accident than design look to it. 

 

Maddison was called out for his attitude. Though something we can agree on wrt to Southgate there wasn't much outrage at one of the top 6 players controversies.

 

In addition to that England have not beaten one of the elite sides in a tournament for some time. How they fare against an Italy,Spain,Germany or France will decide how much progress they have made.

 

There’s saying stuff for attention and then there’s this. 6/11 that started yesterday won a trophy for their club this season. One of them won a golden boot and most assists. They’re playing because they’ve had good seasons and are better than others.