Learning Other Languages

[worth_the_wait]

3 hours ago, Captain... said:

Final bits of advice on speaking. Put on a French accent, if you're speaking French. Don't speak a foreign language in your normal accent, people won't understand you. Putting on an accent helps with the rhythm of speech and pronunciation. It was probably the one single thing that helped me go to the next level with Spanish, I felt stupid and like I was taking the piss, but I got a lot of compliments on my pronunciation and that helped build my confidence.

Very true.

 

Years ago I used to listen to a few radio stations that I could pick up on the Long Wave - like France Inter, RTL and Radio Monte Carlo.

This was the pre-internet age, and the signal wasn't always crystal clear, but it was good enough.    Now, of course, with the Internet it's an absolute doddle listening to radio stations.

 

I'd still recommend radio rather than TV though.   It feels like they're actually speaking to you ... which they are I suppose ... rather than on TV or films, where the dialog might just be an add-on.

 

When speaking French I just used to try and copy exactly some well-spoken news presenter ... who I assume was speaking pretty much "standard french" which at least everyone could understand.    I've never been much good at remembering vocab, but my pronunciation is spot on.   I've had loads of compliments.   Trouble is ... after one sentence, they think I'm fluent and come back at me in French at 100 mph.   And I can't understand a word!

 

btw - About 20 years ago, France Inter used to have a news presenter who had the most deliciously sexy sounding voice in the whole world.  The only woman I've fallen in love with, having never seen her! 

 

[shen]

3 hours ago, FerrisBueller said:

Thanks man! 

That's the hardest part for me, I'm just about getting there connecting the spoken and written. Plus when it's conversational the words seem to just jumble up in to one long sound, although I don't think that's something someone with a Leicester accent can complain about.

 

It does help that my girlfriend speaks a lot of Danish to me, so I get instant feedback.

 

If you just get rid of those soft d's we'll be fine 

Yeah, you don't really have those in Swedish or Norwegian. Icelandic has the ð which is similar. 
I keep telling foreigners to just use the English 'th' sound for the soft d's here. It really sounds almost the same.
Obviously the tricky part is to know which d is soft, hard or silent when reading them

 

[shen]

3 hours ago, SecretPro said:

Google says Norwegian is the easiest language, closely followed by Spanish. I'll change my cycle plans.

Save up if you're going to Norway!

[shen]

3 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I just did German to O-level (GCSE) decades ago, but brushed it up to go to the 2006 World Cup - and got by fine on an everyday level, ordering food, asking about trains, having simple chat etc.

 

German pronunciation seems more consistent and simpler than French or Portuguese pronunciation (like Spanish, in theory, though I seem to have an issue with the rhythm of Spanish - stress patterns or something).

But German does seem to have more grammar to learn than the Latin languages - strict rules on word order and multiple cases (nominative, accusative, genitive & dative) etc.

But in order to converse and get by, you really don't need to get all the cases and genders right. If you say "der Auto ist im Garage", every single German will understand you without a problem.
My dad married my German mother and for decades got by with a grammatically poor German and had many German speaking friends in Belgium. The challenge can be to understand certain dialects of German (anything south of Cologne will probably have most foreigners stumped).

[Sampson]

19 minutes ago, shen said:

Yeah, you don't really have those in Swedish or Norwegian. Icelandic has the ð which is similar. 
I keep telling foreigners to just use the English 'th' sound for the soft d's here. It really sounds almost the same.
Obviously the tricky part is to know which d is soft, hard or silent when reading them

 

Yeah but in Swedish they have that weird "y" which sounds like they've swallowed a frog and that weird "sj" sound that just sounds like they're breathing in frozen air.

Edited 16 July 2021 by Sampson

[Vacamion]

10 minutes ago, shen said:

But in order to converse and get by, you really don't need to get all the cases and genders right. If you say "der Auto ist im Garage", every single German will understand you without a problem.
My dad married my German mother and for decades got by with a grammatically poor German and had many German speaking friends in Belgium. The challenge can be to understand certain dialects of German (anything south of Cologne will probably have most foreigners stumped).

 

I've heard Germans made up their own

Grammar as they go along.  They argue amongst themselves about what gender a word is and I remember an old Granny in Saxony, giving it "das hätt' ich von Sie nicht erwartet".  

 

It's absolutely right that vocab is much more important than the find details of grammar.  

 

If a foreigner asked "How many do that costs?" most people would shrug and give them tje price, as opposed to correcting their descriptions of quantity or their verb agreement.

 

[fuchsntf]

11 hours ago, SecretPro said:

Has anybody learnt to speak a foreign language through self tuition?

 

I'm going to be doing a lot of cycling around France and feel like I want to delve more into the culture and be able to properly communicate with the locals whilst I'm doing it.

 

So, any tips, porcasts, learning tools etc?

 

(none of that Babbel or dualingo sh*t though please!)

I started with French & German, by listening alot to Radio ( Not tv), then Local Cinemas, with French/German films..Plus I had French/Belguim/German Girlfriends

Spanish...I First learnt in a school, then like from above from the street,cafes  and Cantinas,markets  in Mexico..( I lived there for a year)

 

Learning only from the street, One can Pick up in the language poor Lingual & grammer habits.but hey-ho at least you can communicate..

 

If you truely  have a good ear for language...The world is a stage, use it, listen,watch, Dont yourself hold back,get involved try short sentences.

Shops and European markets are Great fun. and Dont forget to use your mobile, to Photo the Name of the  wares/faire..

Then make up your Diary / und Scribble Folder & write down the words/names/Short sentences several times...

 

Through Europe many towns-govts offer & have various courses in their own language, sometimes free or at little cost...Don t be afraid to use Local govt.Offices

or Tourist-bureaus to gather info..there are also Short crash-courses...

 

 

[fuchsntf]

4 hours ago, shen said:

But in order to converse and get by, you really don't need to get all the cases and genders right. If you say "der Auto ist im Garage", every single German will understand you without a problem.
My dad married my German mother and for decades got by with a grammatically poor German and had many German speaking friends in Belgium. The challenge can be to understand certain dialects of German (anything south of Cologne will probably have most foreigners stumped).

My Wife comes from the black-forest, I have mostly  worked & lived South of Frankfurt, One can eventually find an ear for the dialects,even if One Answers back

in Hoch-Deutsch. Over the years I always had my kids who corrected me... I still get caught out on die/der/das and eine/ein/einem..but even some  Germans have the problem. I found,that Germans, French,Spanish,Italian  from the beginning all like & appreciates that one at least trys.

Then sometimes,some German & French in work/Business will spend Too much time correcting any foreigner, instead of listening..Though Socially/in the street far more agreeable,  helpfull and will ignore small slips...

Though I have often had to Read local German/french Emails , and humerously seeing their own Language mistakes

have Returned fire,especially  if People go Off track..!!

 

One of the Myths about Germans...that they  dont have a Sense of humour..

Sorry all Germans I have Met & become aquainted....are just as daft,crazy,witty as any Englishman

Germans/English/French can be cuttingly or  humerously Sarcastic also in Business or group meetings.

The Media /TV/Radio of old,could be downright conservative, so little qualnt Humor would not come out of these outlets.

The guy on the street/ buro as mentioned are humerous,witty & daft...

 

[Sampson]

1 hour ago, fuchsntf said:

My Wife comes from the black-forest, I have mostly  worked & lived South of Frankfurt, One can eventually find an ear for the dialects,even if One Answers back

in Hoch-Deutsch. Over the years I always had my kids who corrected me... I still get caught out on die/der/das and eine/ein/einem..but even some  Germans have the problem. I found,that Germans, French,Spanish,Italian  from the beginning all like & appreciates that one at least trys.

Then sometimes,some German & French in work/Business will spend Too much time correcting any foreigner, instead of listening..Though Socially/in the street far more agreeable,  helpfull and will ignore small slips...

Though I have often had to Read local German/french Emails , and humerously seeing their own Language mistakes

have Returned fire,especially  if People go Off track..!!

 

One of the Myths about Germans...that they  dont have a Sense of humour..

Sorry all Germans I have Met & become aquainted....are just as daft,crazy,witty as any Englishman

Germans/English/French can be cuttingly or  humerously Sarcastic also in Business or group meetings.

The Media /TV/Radio of old,could be downright conservative, so little qualnt Humor would not come out of these outlets.

The guy on the street/ buro as mentioned are humerous,witty & daft...

 

I can definitely see why you might have problems with other people's language mistakes and find trying to be understood in other countries confusing...

 

Edited 17 July 2021 by Sampson

[Paninistickers]

13 hours ago, shen said:

But in order to converse and get by, you really don't need to get all the cases and genders right. If you say "der Auto ist im Garage", every single German will understand you without a problem.
My dad married my German mother and for decades got by with a grammatically poor German and had many German speaking friends in Belgium. The challenge can be to understand certain dialects of German (anything south of Cologne will probably have most foreigners stumped).

Yeah, I have lived in Germany and have to use it for work now meaning on and off, I've studied it for 20 years. It's roughly C1 level and perhaps even C2 in my field at work, when the words/phrases are used so.often. 

 

but they tend to be fairly forgiving on genders. So long as you flow and speak fairly confidently and don't make a big deal.of self correcting. 

 

As for accents, a couple of years ago I decided to watch Fuchs on YouTube who was a guest on an Austrian TV show....I was curious to see what he was really like and if he had the same personality. I was horrified that I could barely understand a word, so strong was the dialect. I already knew Swiss German was unintelligible but had watched Austrian TV in the past without problems. But his chit chat was super difficult for my ears

 

 

[Mark 'expert' Lawrenson]

In the canaries last year the waiters were trying to speak to us in English and us to them in Spanish, very funny. 

[danny.]

I started learning German on Duolingo about 6 months ago. Really good for a rough base although I find the pronunciation on there isn’t that helpful as it’s a computer voice, so for works like sprechen or München where we’re don’t have the corresponding sounds in English I was learning the pronunciation quite badly. It’s also a really difficult language with all the genders etc. there are around 24 different words for “the” depending on context 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

23 hours ago, Izzy said:

I’m one of those arrogant English bastards who’ve never learnt another language because the rest of the world speaks English so well.

I work with people remotely from all over the world and it never ceases to amaze me how brilliant their English always is.
Fair play if you want to invest your time in learning a new language but frankly in today’s world, I can’t really see the point.

You were always a proper grafter at school, now you're a lazy barsteward - what happened mate ?! 

[Izzy]

54 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

You were always a proper grafter at school, now you're a lazy barsteward - what happened mate ?! 

Mate I ended up with 4 ‘C’ grades and left half way through doing my retakes. Hardly a grafter!! 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

5 hours ago, Izzy said:

Mate I ended up with 4 ‘C’ grades and left half way through doing my retakes. Hardly a grafter!! 

You were just blessed with talent, you didn't need exam results to prove it!

[fuchsntf]

20 hours ago, Sampson said:

I can definitely see why you might have problems with other people's language mistakes and find trying to be understood in other countries confusing...

 

Carry on be confused..I can Converse Read und write and Translate in Four languages..

Plus I learnt how poetic,and turn of Verse can be so Beautiful & flexible in English....Only forum & Blog Controllers have a Major problem..because simply....

 

Our default use of the language is therefore extremely creative and dynamic, rather than rule-bound, restricted, and beset by pointless and obsessive limitations, a la the Académie Française.[1]

(For example see the endless discussion of rules of grammar, and dissection of the habits of speech of the British, by other English speakers, some of whom have no inhibitions when it comes to explaining we are at fault for not following rules they have recently concocted, and others who will swear blind - to use ancient idiom - that whatever they speak is the real thing, despite it having been largely invented, often within living memory, and that it is the English who are speaking in some strange alien creole compared to, say, any random inhabitant of the  wayward-correction camps...

 

you throw Any Curve ball fella, I'll hit it right back,...Too many English-rinces,that can never understand the wonders and flexible turn of Phrase in their wonderfull inherited English-language..

some have spent their lives trying to correct the past & future of a language that has Never Followed

hard & fast rules, its Soul & spirit runs free every next generation...

I have Travelled to far corners, others didnt Think exsisted...Made myself understood in Local lingua in more Strange villages, than any Englishman has Drunk pints in.. 

English my Mother tongue, I Dont ever want to Stand still and be a pig-arse that believes he is an Expert or considered one.

Love ,gather & learn.....

 

Besides Coming from New-Parks, life gave me a free Ride and insaturable amount of wild-cards...I know I am crap,But Dont haughtily try & correct others unless I get paid as an Instructor or docent by others..

 

Then some dozo trys to win points on a fking Football- forum....

 

 

Edited 17 July 2021 by fuchsntf

[Sampson]

20 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

Carry on be confused..I can Converse Read und write and Translate in Four languages..

Plus I learnt how poetic,and turn of Verse can be so Beautiful & flexible in English....Only forum & Blog Controllers have a Major problem..because simply....

 

Our default use of the language is therefore extremely creative and dynamic, rather than rule-bound, restricted, and beset by pointless and obsessive limitations, a la the Académie Française.[1]

(For example see the endless discussion of rules of grammar, and dissection of the habits of speech of the British, by other English speakers, some of whom have no inhibitions when it comes to explaining we are at fault for not following rules they have recently concocted, and others who will swear blind - to use ancient idiom - that whatever they speak is the real thing, despite it having been largely invented, often within living memory, and that it is the English who are speaking in some strange alien creole compared to, say, any random inhabitant of the  wayward-correction camps...

 

you throw Any Curve ball fella, I'll hit it right back,...Too many English-rinces,that can never understand the wonders and flexible turn of Phrase in 

their wonderfull inherited English-language..some have spent their lives trying to correct the past & future of a language that has Never Followed

hard & fast rules, its Soul & spirit runs free every next generation...

I have Travelled to far corners, others didnt Think exsisted...Made myself understood in Local lingua in more Strange villages, than any Englishman

has Drunk pints in..  English my Mother tongue, I Dont ever want to Stand still and be a pig-arse that believe he is an Expert or considered it...

Love ,gather & learn.....

 

Besides Coming from New-Parks, life gave me a free Ride and insaturable amount of wild-cards...I know I am crap,But Dont haughtily try & correct others unless I get paid as an Instructor or docent by others..

 

Then some dozo trys to win points on a fking Football- forum....

 

 

It was just a joke because of how your posts are formatted.

 

Don't take it too seriously 

[fuchsntf]

Just now, Sampson said:

It was just a joke because of how your posts are formatted.

 

Don't take it too seriously 

 

No worries..Never took anything serious in my life....

Life is Too serious for that..

[brucey]

The speech recognition function in the google translate app is useful to check your pronounciation.

[Duquesne Whistle]

On 16/07/2021 at 11:27, Vacamion said:

 

It's absolutely right that vocab is much more important than the find details of grammar.  

 

It's almost as if it's there to prove your point 

[The Fox Covert]

On 16/07/2021 at 12:41, Izzy said:

I’m one of those arrogant English bastards who’ve never learnt another language because the rest of the world speaks English so well.

 

I work with people remotely from all over the world and it never ceases to amaze me how brilliant their English always is.
 

Fair play if you want to invest your time in learning a new language but frankly in today’s world, I can’t really see the point.

Are you Boris Johnson in disguise?

[Paninistickers]

On 16/07/2021 at 12:41, Izzy said:

I’m one of those arrogant English bastards who’ve never learnt another language because the rest of the world speaks English so well.

 

I work with people remotely from all over the world and it never ceases to amaze me how brilliant their English always is.
 

Fair play if you want to invest your time in learning a new language but frankly in today’s world, I can’t really see the point.

I think that's a fair.point, particularly as smartphones and Google translate can rescue a situation. So I've asked myself the same question over the yearsnwhether jve been wasting an awful lot of time and effort. I've come to the conclusion there's a few 'soft' benefits, namely

 

My own English grammar improved dramatically 

 

Foreigners can understand my English perfectly as I tend to structure my sentences and word choice sympathetically. And that makes them.feel good about themselves and makes me more likeable/approachable  to them (I've lost count the times I've had to 'translate' an English companion's English to a grateful waiter) 

 

You come across as clever, to both English and Foreigners when you can speak a lingo

 

You get a sneak preview in how another part of the world ticks. It's a bit like being let in on a secret

 

It saved my current job. 

 

 

[fuchsntf]

15 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

I think that's a fair.point, particularly as smartphones and Google translate can rescue a situation. So I've asked myself the same question over the yearsnwhether jve been wasting an awful lot of time and effort. I've come to the conclusion there's a few 'soft' benefits, namely

 

My own English grammar improved dramatically 

 

Foreigners can understand my English perfectly as I tend to structure my sentences and word choice sympathetically. And that makes them.feel good about themselves and makes me more likeable/approachable  to them (I've lost count the times I've had to 'translate' an English companion's English to a grateful waiter) 

 

You come across as clever, to both English and Foreigners when you can speak a lingo

 

You get a sneak preview in how another part of the world ticks. It's a bit like being let in on a secret

 

It saved my current job. 

 

 

Probably the best and most satisfying reason...

[Dr The Singh]

I always learn the swear words first and try them out.

[grobyfox1990]

On 16/07/2021 at 11:16, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Some really good advice in this thread. 

I picked up a few words of Spanish over 20+ years going abroad but decided to get stuck into DuoLingo during the March 2020 lockdown, and now on my 479th consecutive day.

The best practice was in Tenerife last month, hugely helpful, especially with the Spaniards who could speak decent English, I could ask them what this or that means.

Good luck with it.

Nice, I am on my 360th odd consecutive day of spanish. Started in the first lockdown as well but had a few days where i didnt do it which broke my streak.

 

How did you get on In Tenerife out of interest? I try and speak to a Mexican friend and a Colombian maintenance bloke in my office, but the South American way of speaking Spanish appears completely different to the Spain-Duolingo version.

 

Anything else you are doing to aid your learning, other than Duolingo?