Closed doors

[OntarioFox]

3 hours ago, Russell sprout said:

 

seing as the first and second jab were about as affective as junior Lewis in a city shirt,

but hey each to there own

If Covid is anything like flu, a jab is generally good for a season before you need a new one. Junior Lewis couldn't even manage that. 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

13 hours ago, CyprusFox said:

Hope so, at least the majority of us that are vaccinated. The rest of them that choose not to get jabbed should stay at home.

Really why? I haven't had any jabs and I don't want to be near anyone who has. All those people in the stadium jabbed just as capable of passing it on as non jabbed. So yeah staying at home.

 

[hejammy]

Just now, PAPA LAZAROU said:

Really why? I haven't had any jabs and I don't want to be near anyone who has. All those people in the stadium jabbed just as capable of passing it on as non jabbed. So yeah staying at home.

 

I think that's the point he's trying to make.... 

[Mr Weller]

3 hours ago, Jobyfox said:

I'll ignore the fact that you've decided to take the tone of a patronising **** and answer this in good faith. 

 

If you'd read all my posts on this subject I think you'll see that I've been quite balanced in making my arguments. I'm not a vaccine conspiracy theorist, have complied with the vaccine programme, lockdowns  and wear a mask and respect other people's personal space. I'm not even strongly against a lockdown, but just very agnostic about its effectiveness given the fact that we have developed vaccines and that the virus will continue to mutate. I totally understand the theory around flattening the curve and reducing the pressure on the NHS.

 

I was simply pointing out that assisting the NHS to cope with future waves might be a better course of action/investment than repeatedly shutting the economy down. Of course, this should be balanced against how deadly a new variant is and realise that this might be too early to call for the Omicron variant as I acknowledged in another post. 

 

Really, if you've read all my posts on this subject, in this thread you'll see that I've tried to articulate my view in a balanced way and being respectful of others opinions. It's a shame you couldn't do the same and would conclude it's you, rather than me, who have their head firmly shoved up their own arse! 

Ad hominem - the biggest flaw in any argument.

 

The next biggest is the false choice, which in your case means you somehow pitch the long term improvement of the NHS (a good thing but it takes years and we have weeks if not days) against short term restrictions (necessary to save the NHS from turning away emergency cancer and heart patients). You can do both but one will only pay off on a decades time.

[PAPA LAZAROU]

1 minute ago, hejammy said:

I think that's the point he's trying to make.... 

No he was having a swipe at those who choose not to have the jab by saying we should stop at home. Just thought I would mention that jabbed or not passing it on is the same .

[Mr Weller]

3 minutes ago, hejammy said:

I think that's the point he's trying to make.... 

Which is scientifically illiterate. Presumably you’d also be happy to accept doses of TB, smallpox, polio and other delights instead of the vaccines that prevent those scourges from ruining lives?

[st albans fox]

2 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

No he was having a swipe at those who choose not to have the jab by saying we should stop at home. Just thought I would mention that jabbed or not passing it on is the same .

Well it isn’t according to the vast majority of peer reviewed studies but if you’re staying at home it doesn’t really matter ….

[Scotch]

1 hour ago, Duquesne Whistle said:

That's true, but only in the short term I reckon. The financial implosion in English topflight football will come. It's just that no one knows when. 

Absolutely. Sooner or later. That's why it's vital to not only have our world class training facility but a top notch youth development system that's not quite there yet. 

[hejammy]

12 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

No he was having a swipe at those who choose not to have the jab by saying we should stop at home. Just thought I would mention that jabbed or not passing it on is the same .

Well no he wasn't, he was just stating that those who are not jabbed stay at home to avoid catching the virus and being really ill from it and those jabbed then can go and not feel bad about potentially passing onto other people who are jabbed (in the event they are positive). It's a choice you make and therefore like with all choices there are consequences to be had 

[hejammy]

12 minutes ago, Mr Weller said:

Which is scientifically illiterate. Presumably you’d also be happy to accept doses of TB, smallpox, polio and other delights instead of the vaccines that prevent those scourges from ruining lives?

You what? I think you need to wind your neck in fella. My opinion is that people should get jabbed but that isn't important to this conversion as I was simply saying to PAPA LAZAROU that the point he made was exactly the same as the point he was replying to. 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

23 minutes ago, hejammy said:

Well no he wasn't, he was just stating that those who are not jabbed stay at home to avoid catching the virus and being really ill from it and those jabbed then can go and not feel bad about potentially passing onto other people who are jabbed (in the event they are positive). It's a choice you make and therefore like with all choices there are consequences to be had 

I'm making a choice to stay away from the matches because of my risk of contracting the virus from anyone jabbed or not. Taking the high moral ground against those who choose not to vaccinate is ridiculous when you can contract it just as easily from the vaccinated.

Edited 21 December 2021 by PAPA LAZAROU

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

I'm making a choose to stay away from the matches because of my risk of contracting the virus from anyone jabbed or not. Taking the high moral ground against those who choose not to vaccinate is rediculous when you can contract it just as easily from the vaccinated.

Papa - if you keep writing something, it doesn’t make it correct!  It’s your opinion but science doesn’t agree - it’s more complex than that.  You are right that being at home is the safest place for you though. (For the time being) 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

29 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Well it isn’t according to the vast majority of peer reviewed studies but if you’re staying at home it doesn’t really matter ….

Go ahead and show me a either a government or N.H.S study that shows the vaccinated cannot pass on or contract the virus. If that were true I'm sure the government and media would be all over it to get everyone vaccinated, but as yet they have said nothing of the sort.

[PAPA LAZAROU]

6 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Papa - if you keep writing something, it doesn’t make it correct!  It’s your opinion but science doesn’t agree - it’s more complex than that.  You are right that being at home is the safest place for you though. (For the time being) 

What science are you talking about? The only ones that are legitimate come from either the government or the N.H.S neither of which has stated that having the jabs either prevents you from contracting it or passing it on. many people who have had both jabs have contracted and died from COVID. So sitting in a stadium with 30 odd thousand jabbed people still would not prevent you from contracting it and as has been the case dying from it.

Edited 21 December 2021 by PAPA LAZAROU

[st albans fox]

8 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

Go ahead and show me a either a government or N.H.S study that shows the vaccinated cannot pass on or contract the virus. If that were true I'm sure the government and media would be all over it to get everyone vaccinated, but as yet they have said nothing of the sort.

 

6 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

What science are you talking about? The only ones that are legitimate come from either the government or the N.H.S neither of which has stated that having the jabs either prevents you from contracting it or passing it on

I don’t think you would believe any studies that dont show you what you think is true. 
 

Best leave it there 

[Guest Dirkster the Fox]

6 minutes ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

What science are you talking about? The only ones that are legitimate come from either the government or the N.H.S neither of which has stated that having the jabs either prevents you from contracting it or passing it on

The irony in all the debate on here is the data from SA and seemingly the early prognosis here in the UK,  is Omicron is more transmisable by those already vaccinated. The u40's vaccinated in SA apparently drove the case surge in the early days there.

 

I'm not taking either side, just stating what appears to be a solid facts.

 

So you can catch it (vaccinated) and more likely to pass it on (Omicron).

 

The only reason to be vaccinated is it does reduce severe illness, particularly in the Delta variant.

 

Omicron is showing all the hallmarks of a much less severe illness.

[Jobyfox]

36 minutes ago, Mr Weller said:

Ad hominem - the biggest flaw in any argument.

 

The next biggest is the false choice, which in your case means you somehow pitch the long term improvement of the NHS (a good thing but it takes years and we have weeks if not days) against short term restrictions (necessary to save the NHS from turning away emergency cancer and heart patients). You can do both but one will only pay off on a decades time.

I'm guessing the first bit was irony... but thanks for coming back with a properly constructed counter argument. 

 

Another lockdown may well be necessary, but what follows then? Another variant? another lockdown?

What will have changed in the meantime? Better vaccines? Higher immunity? More people boostered? 

What happens then - another round of boosters? More lockdowns?

 

I'm not disputing your position and the above are all rhetorical questions. But every lockdown costs the economy billions and the time to recover grows. Sunak has pledged a further £1billion pounds to rescue the hospitality sector. Will he do that after the next lockdown as well? The same money could go to fund the NHS and improvement does not have to take decades, but just needs political will.The Nightingale hospitals were built in ten days. 

 

 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

18 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

 

I don’t think you would believe any studies that dont show you what you think is true. 
 

Best leave it there 

No you should leave it there. Answer my question Has the government or the N.H.S told anyone that having the jabs will prevent them either getting the covid or passing it on? Not interested in your so-called studies only the official government or N.H.S ones. They make the decisions not independent studies. You know what's coming football being played behind closed doors jabbed and double jabbed and booster not withstanding that shows you how confident the government and the N.H.S are about the vaccine.

Edited 21 December 2021 by PAPA LAZAROU

[GingerrrFox]

Line up. Line up. As if you have a choice. Roll them sleeves up and get injected here. Won’t give you back your freedoms, hey ho, maybe next year, we’ll all sit back and laugh, that you still follow along, with cheese and wine, because toff tories don’t drink beer. 
 

Just a little poem, because I’m going crazy already at the thought of another bloody lockdown. 

Edited 22 December 2021 by GingerrrFox

[dsr-burnley]

It'll be interesting to compare English and Scottish case rates over the next week or so.  If the Scottish rules work, then we would expect a significant difference in rates quite quickly - if the rules work.  (Wearing face masks in schools showed little benefit.)

[Leicester_Loyal]

14 hours ago, NaijaFox said:

With respect to public health, you are not "taking the risks" for just yourself.

 

Realize I might well be in the vast minority (or silent majority) here, but despite all the casual talk about less symptoms, hospitalizations and deaths (we just had our first fatality here in the US), even one needless death for football is NOT worth it. And the more infections arise, the more fatalities they are likely going to be.

 

Personally, and here I turn to PERSONAL experience, I'd rather listen to fake crowd noises (with the option to tune it out) than to ICU respiratory machines. For some of us, Covid is not fictional, abstract or theoretical.

 

You’d shutdown crowds at football forever incase ONE person dies from COVID?

 

What about those who are killed on the road by another driver whilst driving to an away game? 
 

Almost every death is needless, if you don’t want a needless death then you stay indoors, don’t leave the house, don’t use candles or gas (They could start a fire which burns your neighbours house down and kills them). 
 

Don’t take this the wrong way but it sounds like you’re literally afraid of your own shadow, it’s like a mental illness IMO, that’s the scary thing. 

[FoxesDeb]

I'd forgotten about the fake crowd noise, all the delayed reactions and when they played songs from the wrong sets of fans 

 

 

[foxinsocks]

3 hours ago, Jobyfox said:

"Spread" and "infectious spread" are important distinctions here. It is likely to be more infectious to those who haven't been vaccinated as opposed to those who have. That's why the biggest problem in hospitals at the moment is unvaccinated people who have a variant other than Omicron. Even though Omicron is the biggest threat in the UK at the moment.

People that spread it unknowingly might spread it to other vaccinated people. If, however, you have a cell of the Delta variant (for example) in your system, the vaccine works to kill the host cell(s) and infectious cell(s) as quickly as possible. The quicker it can kill these cells, the "less infectious" that person will become, as they are carrying less infectious cells. The problem then is, if they pass this to an unvaccinated person, the chances of the infectious cells multiplying and spreading is greatly increased.

It would be a good idea, and help keep fans at games, if we all took an LFT

[CyprusFox]

5 hours ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

Really why? I haven't had any jabs and I don't want to be near anyone who has. All those people in the stadium jabbed just as capable of passing it on as non jabbed. So yeah staying at home.

 

5 hours ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

Really why? I haven't had any jabs and I don't want to be near anyone who has. All those people in the stadium jabbed just as capable of passing it on as non jabbed. So yeah staying at home.

 

Good choice. Less likelyhood of you contracting the disease and clogging up our NHS beds. The vast majority of hospitalisations with the omricon variant are the non vaccinated.

[Bptiger]

7 hours ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

I'm making a choice to stay away from the matches because of my risk of contracting the virus from anyone jabbed or not. Taking the high moral ground against those who choose not to vaccinate is ridiculous when you can contract it just as easily from the vaccinated.

Ur a fool , yes u can catch it and pass it on vaxed or non vaxed , the difference is if ur unvaxed u can die , so maybe u should go , if u don’t get it by now .