Tactics Under Maresca

[Basildon Fox]

On 05/09/2023 at 12:40, StriderHiryu said:

What about Brighton? Would you say Billy Gilmour or Pascal Gross are "incredible?"

 

Without being facetious, the debate for using tactics that won't work at the top level or with the players we have is a good one. It could definitely turn out to be the case with Maresca's current setup. But he could always change his tactics later, both Pep and Klopp have done it. Klopp even changed Liverpool's style to being way more of a possession team than when he first took over. I find it amazing that people are already fully knives out for a guy that has been here for 3 months and saw the highest player turnover the club has seen in years. If it all turns out to be crap, we will call it out in this thread, but let's give the guy some time first.

 

There's something else to consider here though, outside of tactics. And that's the club's business model. Brighton, have made the best player sales in the Premier League, taking our crown in recent years. Why do teams want their players so much? It's because of the football they play. Caceido is worth 115M (supposedly) because he's a press resistant midfielder that can tackle, pass, turn, etc. It seems to me that our entire business model as a club is to develop talent from our catchment area / sign undervalued young players, develop them into top class ones and then sell them on. Do this enough times and eventually you might not need to sell and you can make a run at trophies and / or the Champions League. That's what we did on our last "cycle". So if that is our business model, does it not make sense to play the style of football Maresca plays even if the fans hate it? That's an interesting debate to have too!

 

For what it's worth, I care about Leicester winning trophies rather than Brighton's "net spend champions" award. But in order to compete with the Chelsea's of this world, you do need to do something innovative. For me, even if Maresca is a bust in the end, I rate the club for having the balls to try it.

 

 

 

 

Let's see if you still think that if we are sitting 12th in January with the squad we have in this division.

 

Football principles are great but results are far more important for me. All I am seeing at the moment is the same frustrations under Rodgers before we then shit the bed last season.  If we went at most teams in this league we would blow them away. 

 

Having said that we have 2 potential gems coming back from ACL injuries in Braybrook and Alves who could thrive in the system. Let's hope they can still fulfill their potential after the gruesome injuries they have had.

 

Our squad looks a little bit imbalanced at the moment. Those 2 coming in as options back to full fitness will hopefully correct that.

 

 

[sacreblueits442]

7 hours ago, sbfox said:

But why would you expect to see sequences finished in 15 passes, when Maresca's style mimics Pep's tactics, which is keep the ball all game? The whole idea of this style is to hold the ball for as long as possible. 

 

Again, the question asked to lots of others - what would your alternative be? Counter attacking? Long balls in behind? Big man up top? 

...I  was surprised to hear Cannon describes his style of play as being on the shoulder of the last defender and being played in behind the defence!!!

  We will now have three strikers that play that way, which clerarly does not suit our style of play and who finds themselves isolated in games.

  Just watching his YouTube show reels, he does not appear to play that way, but as a old fashioned forward that puts himself about. His demeanour is much more akin to a veteran striker, than a young lad breaking into the upper echelons of the game.

[Guppys Love Child]

7 hours ago, sbfox said:

But why would you expect to see sequences finished in 15 passes, when Maresca's style mimics Pep's tactics, which is keep the ball all game? The whole idea of this style is to hold the ball for as long as possible. 

 

Again, the question asked to lots of others - what would your alternative be? Counter attacking? Long balls in behind? Big man up top? 

I hear what you are saying, and probably my choice of words or how I was trying to convey my points could have been clearer. 

I was alluding to the point that currently we are slow in our play and at times appear to be "passing for the hell of it" but, did say I appreciate that we are still learning the system, and that as we get more proficient with Enzo's Idea our quality of passing will improve, choice of passing will get better, and we in turn we will become more efficient in our play. (Hence the 15 instead of 36 quip, I used to highlight improvement I wasn't trying to be literal here)

 

All I was really doing in my post was agreeing with the original poster, but quantifying my reasons as well.

 

(to quote your words again) Maresca's style mimics Pep's tactics, which is keep the ball all game. The whole idea of this style is to hold the ball for as long as possible.  For me, and possibly a few others who post find this brand of football boring to watch and paint drying is more exciting to watch.

 

It my personal choice and I fully accept that others are different and like possession football (also mentioned in my post) 

 

  Ref your second point. 

It's a tricky one to answer TBH, but I go to games to be entertained as well as hopefully see us come away with 3 points, so I'd have to say  counterattack football for me I guess, but, with a cheeky speculative over the top long ball every now and again to add variety and keep the opposition guessing.

Edited 8 September 2023 by Guppys Love Child

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, Basildon Fox said:

Let's see if you still think that if we are sitting 12th in January with the squad we have in this division.

 

Football principles are great but results are far more important for me. All I am seeing at the moment is the same frustrations under Rodgers before we then shit the bed last season.  If we went at most teams in this league we would blow them away. 

 

Having said that we have 2 potential gems coming back from ACL injuries in Braybrook and Alves who could thrive in the system. Let's hope they can still fulfill their potential after the gruesome injuries they have had.

 

Our squad looks a little bit imbalanced at the moment. Those 2 coming in as options back to full fitness will hopefully correct that.

 

 

 

What does this even mean? Teams are sitting back in deep low blocks against us. Did you not see the infamous David Moyes game when he was in charge of Man United where they went direct and made 80 crosses into the box and lost the game? Is that going at another team? Why are Southampton struggling? Leeds? Why are teams like Watford and Norwich still stuck in this league despite being in the Premier League not so long ago? Sorry, but statements like this are Dinosaur talk. In the clip below, 5 men are in the opposition box, with a sixth one just about to add one more. That's over half the team in the opposition box in open play. The cross field ball is made by the player playing in a pseudo LCB role as part of a 3. That is going at teams. If you commit any more players forward, you are toast on the transition, just like what Southampton tried in their last game. Can someone remind what the score was in that game?

 

 

I have said that I don't mind not going up this season if we were playing great football with a clear identity. But if we do end up playing great football, we will go up! This division is competitive but lacking in quality.

 

I am not trying to fool anyone here, nor myself. What we have seen so far on the pitch is work in progress. If we were still putting in those kinds of performances consistently in January, then it would only be right to question the tactics, the players and the manager we have at our disposal. But it's not January yet, is it? It's September, so maybe let's get behind a new manager and style of play and see where it takes us? We can go for "told you so's" in the new year.

 

 

[messerschmitt]

I guess it comes down to what you see and we don't all see the same. What I see is totally different to last season. slowly rolling it between the two centre halves while everyone in front stood still.

This season you can usually see that the centre halves are waiting for players to commit. As soon as they do the ball goes into Winks or Ricardo who then look to move it forward. The patterns can quickly drag the opposition around and we have seen times when it rips opposing teams open, even Liverpool.

I'm amazed that we can do that after just a few games.

Even the most pessimistic of fans must concede that with a new team, manager and way of playing, things will get better rather than worse.

As others have posted here, there's been plenty in each game to get excited about if you want to embrace it.

[Gubbins]

8 hours ago, sbfox said:

But why would you expect to see sequences finished in 15 passes, when Maresca's style mimics Pep's tactics, which is keep the ball all game? The whole idea of this style is to hold the ball for as long as possible. 

 

Again, the question asked to lots of others - what would your alternative be? Counter attacking? Long balls in behind? Big man up top? 

Surely the alternative to a lidl version of man citys relentless possesion would be an aldi version of Liverpools relentless press which most prem teams seem to use. Its definitely more entertaining to watch and assuming we go back up will see us carved open by prem teams a lot less.

[StriderHiryu]

15 minutes ago, messerschmitt said:

I guess it comes down to what you see and we don't all see the same. What I see is totally different to last season. slowly rolling it between the two centre halves while everyone in front stood still.

This season you can usually see that the centre halves are waiting for players to commit. As soon as they do the ball goes into Winks or Ricardo who then look to move it forward. The patterns can quickly drag the opposition around and we have seen times when it rips opposing teams open, even Liverpool.

I'm amazed that we can do that after just a few games.

Even the most pessimistic of fans must concede that with a new team, manager and way of playing, things will get better rather than worse.

As others have posted here, there's been plenty in each game to get excited about if you want to embrace it.

It's because our build-up is slow. That's why fans are frustrated, and I can understand that. But the slow pace is deliberate, the tactic is to wait for the opposition to move out of their block and then exploit the spaces left behind it. But opening up a low block is one of the hardest things to do in football. Even Man City, when they lost, they usually get beat by a team sitting deep and hitting them on the counter.

 

1 minute ago, Gubbins said:

Surely the alternative to a lidl version of man citys relentless possesion would be an aldi version of Liverpools relentless press which most prem teams seem to use. Its definitely more entertaining to watch and assuming we go back up will see us carved open by prem teams a lot less.

They don't do this anymore though. They changed their style to have more possession because teams figured them out, and they started to lose games due to an ageing midfield and games becoming too volatile. That's why they signed Thiago and this season signed Alexis Macallister. Look at their possesion stats, they have increased year on year since Klopp took over.

 

For what it's worth, I preferred Klopp's early Liverpool and Dortmund teams, but not even they press as much as they used to. Teams worked out how to play out from the press.

[Gubbins]

7 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

It's because our build-up is slow. That's why fans are frustrated, and I can understand that. But the slow pace is deliberate, the tactic is to wait for the opposition to move out of their block and then exploit the spaces left behind it. But opening up a low block is one of the hardest things to do in football. Even Man City, when they lost, they usually get beat by a team sitting deep and hitting them on the counter.

 

They don't do this anymore though. They changed their style to have more possession because teams figured them out, and they started to lose games due to an ageing midfield and games becoming too volatile. That's why they signed Thiago and this season signed Alexis Macallister. Look at their possesion stats, they have increased year on year since Klopp took over.

 

For what it's worth, I preferred Klopp's early Liverpool and Dortmund teams, but not even they press as much as they used to. Teams worked out how to play out from the press.

Good teams for sure but the majority of championship teams are garbage, so it would still work in this division and probably involve significantly less passing between our centre backs.  And whilst some teams may have worked out how to play out from the press the majority figured out how to deal with possesion football long ago. Itl work in this division more often than not due to the inferior opponent's but if we go up itl just be Rodgers ball all over again. Teams presses will panic our defenders and defences will just sit in and wait until we inevitably lose possesion and break on us. With the quality of players we're likely to have I just don't see how heavy possesion football will work for us certainly in the medium term.

[sacreblueits442]

11 minutes ago, Gubbins said:

Good teams for sure but the majority of championship teams are garbage, so it would still work in this division and probably involve significantly less passing between our centre backs.  And whilst some teams may have worked out how to play out from the press the majority figured out how to deal with possesion football long ago. Itl work in this division more often than not due to the inferior opponent's but if we go up itl just be Rodgers ball all over again. Teams presses will panic our defenders and defences will just sit in and wait until we inevitably lose possesion and break on us. With the quality of players we're likely to have I just don't see how heavy possesion football will work for us certainly in the medium term.

...if we go up at the end of the season, then we bring in better players!!!

That back would look a lot different and we would bring in players who already play the way we want. The main problem would be getting the team to gel, as we would be losing a few loanees losing the structure that we built previously.

[Dusty]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

 

What does this even mean? Teams are sitting back in deep low blocks against us. Did you not see the infamous David Moyes game when he was in charge of Man United where they went direct and made 80 crosses into the box and lost the game? Is that going at another team? Why are Southampton struggling? Leeds? Why are teams like Watford and Norwich still stuck in this league despite being in the Premier League not so long ago? Sorry, but statements like this are Dinosaur talk. In the clip below, 5 men are in the opposition box, with a sixth one just about to add one more. That's over half the team in the opposition box in open play. The cross field ball is made by the player playing in a pseudo LCB role as part of a 3. That is going at teams. If you commit any more players forward, you are toast on the transition, just like what Southampton tried in their last game. Can someone remind what the score was in that game?

 

 

I have said that I don't mind not going up this season if we were playing great football with a clear identity. But if we do end up playing great football, we will go up! This division is competitive but lacking in quality.

 

I am not trying to fool anyone here, nor myself. What we have seen so far on the pitch is work in progress. If we were still putting in those kinds of performances consistently in January, then it would only be right to question the tactics, the players and the manager we have at our disposal. But it's not January yet, is it? It's September, so maybe let's get behind a new manager and style of play and see where it takes us? We can go for "told you so's" in the new year.

 

 

I love the cross field pass thing from that half space. It’s the sort of thing Klopp has done at Liverpool with Trent and Robertson spamming so many crosses into the far post, it’s so so effective and I hope it’s something we regularly try. 

[Lillehamring]

2 hours ago, messerschmitt said:

I guess it comes down to what you see and we don't all see the same. What I see is totally different to last season. slowly rolling it between the two centre halves while everyone in front stood still.

This season you can usually see that the centre halves are waiting for players to commit. As soon as they do the ball goes into Winks or Ricardo who then look to move it forward. The patterns can quickly drag the opposition around and we have seen times when it rips opposing teams open, even Liverpool.

I'm amazed that we can do that after just a few games.

Even the most pessimistic of fans must concede that with a new team, manager and way of playing, things will get better rather than worse.

As others have posted here, there's been plenty in each game to get excited about if you want to embrace it.

But that is why this thread is so important in understanding what is going on - maresca's football is subtle so, sure, not everyone sees the underlying quality, but if people read this thread and learned what to look for, rather than just blundering in saying it's the same as BR, then maybe they could see it the same way we do?

[Lillehamring]

2 hours ago, Gubbins said:

Surely the alternative to a lidl version of man citys relentless possesion would be an aldi version of Liverpools relentless press which most prem teams seem to use. Its definitely more entertaining to watch and assuming we go back up will see us carved open by prem teams a lot less.

We played a pretty high press against Hull and, not sure why, but they managed to play through it, even though they had a poor backline - so there's no guarantee that it will "work in this division more often than not due to the inferior opponents".

 

Anyway, we can only press teams when they have the ball, which is about 30-35% of the game, and we do do that; so what are we supposed to do, squander some of our 'relentless pressure' so that the opponents can have the ball and we can then 'relentlessy press' them?  I assume, the logic behind this is simply that we then turn over possession in the press higher up the field?  That's simply not a sustainable tactic.  

 

Maresca is working on the understanding that teams will know we have better players than them, and are opting to simply try and resist, as such they are happy for us to have deep possession - it's not a choice we are making but a situation forced upon us by the way that teams are choosing to set up against us.

[Guppys Love Child]

39 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

But that is why this thread is so important in understanding what is going on - maresca's football is subtle so, sure, not everyone sees the underlying quality

I've posted before stating that I understand the ethos of what Enzo is try to implement, to draw the opposition out of shape, exploit holes etc. etc, and I also understand the nuances between Brendanball and Enzo's Idea.  As you stated it's subtle but currently is no less boring to watch from the stands and not my cup of tea.

 

One other small point and also a question with regards to your point below, 

Who is 'we' (do).?

 

Also to some it could come across as a little condescending 

 

but if people read this thread and learned what to look for, rather than just blundering in saying it's the same as BR, then maybe they could see it the same way we do

[messerschmitt]

51 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

But that is why this thread is so important in understanding what is going on - maresca's football is subtle so, sure, not everyone sees the underlying quality, but if people read this thread and learned what to look for, rather than just blundering in saying it's the same as BR, then maybe they could see it the same way we do?

yeah, and I'm grateful to all the people who post here who know more than me. Last season I read this stuff and managed to get full match replays to watch again. It's so easy to miss stuff in the heat of the match.

[moseeds]

3 hours ago, messerschmitt said:

I guess it comes down to what you see and we don't all see the same. What I see is totally different to last season. slowly rolling it between the two centre halves while everyone in front stood still.

This season you can usually see that the centre halves are waiting for players to commit. As soon as they do the ball goes into Winks or Ricardo who then look to move it forward. The patterns can quickly drag the opposition around and we have seen times when it rips opposing teams open, even Liverpool.

I'm amazed that we can do that after just a few games.

Even the most pessimistic of fans must concede that with a new team, manager and way of playing, things will get better rather than worse.

As others have posted here, there's been plenty in each game to get excited about if you want to embrace it.

 

It's interesting that in hindsight. We tried to encourage the opposition to come at the defenders. Except none of our defensive line were quick witted enough to make that work without errors. How many times did we end up accidentally inviting too much pressure in the wrong place to give the opposition a shot on goal from nothing? I think the Championship is being very kind to those same deficiencies but Maresca has got more of a technical understanding of how to make it work which seems to be the big difference with Rodgers.The biggest signing this season is likely going to be Mads Hermanson. Without him in goal (or Stolarycz) we just can't do what Maresca intends. The overloads fall apart and the tactic goes out of the window. Like it did last season.

[messerschmitt]

5 minutes ago, moseeds said:

 

It's interesting that in hindsight. We tried to encourage the opposition to come at the defenders. Except none of our defensive line were quick witted enough to make that work without errors. How many times did we end up accidentally inviting too much pressure in the wrong place to give the opposition a shot on goal from nothing? I think the Championship is being very kind to those same deficiencies but Maresca has got more of a technical understanding of how to make it work which seems to be the big difference with Rodgers.The biggest signing this season is likely going to be Mads Hermanson. Without him in goal (or Stolarycz) we just can't do what Maresca intends. The overloads fall apart and the tactic goes out of the window. Like it did last season.

Yes, and I'm surprised at how good Stolarczyk has looked, especially with his distribution. Overall I feel we will make fewer mistakes at the back as the season goes on. At the moment it's more the mistakes we make at the other end. I think @Lillehamring pointed out that decision-making in the final third cost us the game on Saturday.

[iancognito]

There are people in this thread absolutely dying to have Brian Deane and Jamie Scowcroft flicking it on for Paul Dickov.

[Gubbins]

49 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

We played a pretty high press against Hull and, not sure why, but they managed to play through it, even though they had a poor backline - so there's no guarantee that it will "work in this division more often than not due to the inferior opponents".

 

Anyway, we can only press teams when they have the ball, which is about 30-35% of the game, and we do do that; so what are we supposed to do, squander some of our 'relentless pressure' so that the opponents can have the ball and we can then 'relentlessy press' them?  I assume, the logic behind this is simply that we then turn over possession in the press higher up the field?  That's simply not a sustainable tactic.  

 

Maresca is working on the understanding that teams will know we have better players than them, and are opting to simply try and resist, as such they are happy for us to have deep possession - it's not a choice we are making but a situation forced upon us by the way that teams are choosing to set up against us.

I'm not having that Liverpool were a team with low possesion or didn't face countless low blocks yet they didn't play anything like man city and could overwhelm teams incl man city themselves.

 

The question was what tactics could we use other what we have been so far this season. If we are going to try and copy another side then I strongly believe we'd be more entertained and no worse off aping liverpools style rather than man city. It is more reliant on energy and fitness as opposed to technical skill which many of our players lack and as I said would be more useful in the prem assuming we go up. Playing the current style in the prem remotely successfully would require multiple expensive upgrades across the entire squad.

[Lillehamring]

41 minutes ago, Guppys Love Child said:

I've posted before stating that I understand the ethos of what Enzo is try to implement, to draw the opposition out of shape, exploit holes etc. etc, and I also understand the nuances between Brendanball and Enzo's Idea.  As you stated it's subtle but currently is no less boring to watch from the stands and not my cup of tea.

 

One other small point and also a question with regards to your point below, 

Who is 'we' (do).?

 

Also to some it could come across as a little condescending 

 

but if people read this thread and learned what to look for, rather than just blundering in saying it's the same as BR, then maybe they could see it the same way we do

My post was just a general observation on the merits of this thread, if people want to take that personally i can't do anything about that.

 

There are people who have posted in this thread that clearly haven't taken the time to actually study the thread - had they done so, they wouldn't be posting the things they post, as, invariably, the answers/explanations have been discussed in some detail.  Contrarily, by 'we' i was referring to those that have read the thread, and therefore have studied, if you will, maresca's tactics.

[Lillehamring]

35 minutes ago, messerschmitt said:

yeah, and I'm grateful to all the people who post here who know more than me. Last season I read this stuff and managed to get full match replays to watch again. It's so easy to miss stuff in the heat of the match.

As am I.

[Guppys Love Child]

2 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

My post was just a general observation on the merits of this thread, if people want to take that personally i can't do anything about that.

 

There are people who have posted in this thread that clearly haven't taken the time to actually study the thread - had they done so, they wouldn't be posting the things they post, as, invariably, the answers/explanations have been discussed in some detail.  Contrarily, by 'we' i was referring to those that have read the thread, and therefore have studied, if you will, maresca's tactics.

We'll it's a good job I've taken the time to do my homework then.

 

Thank also for the "we" clarification

[pmcla26]

4 minutes ago, Gubbins said:

I'm not having that Liverpool were a team with low possesion or didn't face countless low blocks yet they didn't play anything like man city and could overwhelm teams incl man city themselves.

 

The question was what tactics could we use other what we have been so far this season. If we are going to try and copy another side then I strongly believe we'd be more entertained and no worse off aping liverpools style rather than man city. It is more reliant on energy and fitness as opposed to technical skill which many of our players lack and as I said would be more useful in the prem assuming we go up. Playing the current style in the prem remotely successfully would require multiple expensive upgrades across the entire squad.

Liverpool's extreme attacking style fell apart when VVD stopped being the best centre-half in the world and their midfield's legs went. 

[Dan LCFC]

20 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

@Dan LCFC @James_lcfc - and you wonder why people moan about the moaners in this thread  

 perhaps but in all honesty, even that, I'm not saying I agree but I think people are entitled to think that.

 

My ideal outcome is that we are having teething problems and that we do eventually pick up the more we do it. I honestly think if we beat Bristol City 3-0 all would be well.

[SuperMike]

Too many people on here admiring 'The Emperors New Clothes' and thinking themselves oh so clever for doing so.

Let others have their opinions - (I, for one, enjoy being a dinosaur!)  - yuno their view may just be right.

 

[Ashley]

2 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

We played a pretty high press against Hull and, not sure why, but they managed to play through it, even though they had a poor backline - so there's no guarantee that it will "work in this division more often than not due to the inferior opponents".

 

Anyway, we can only press teams when they have the ball, which is about 30-35% of the game, and we do do that; so what are we supposed to do, squander some of our 'relentless pressure' so that the opponents can have the ball and we can then 'relentlessy press' them?  I assume, the logic behind this is simply that we then turn over possession in the press higher up the field?  That's simply not a sustainable tactic.  

 

Maresca is working on the understanding that teams will know we have better players than them, and are opting to simply try and resist, as such they are happy for us to have deep possession - it's not a choice we are making but a situation forced upon us by the way that teams are choosing to set up against us.

Hull went to a 2-4-4 when playing out. Their wingers were the outball into the CM. It effectively became a 2-6-2 in the second half. They ran at us more too rather than playing passes to get out of trouble. I'm sure there are some examples of it on the highlights. 

@StriderHiryu