Guest ttfn Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 Accidental handball is not a foul. If a handball is accidental, it is a perfectly legitimate way of preventing the ball crossing the line. Awarding a goal for that is mental.
Captain... Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 Accidental handball is not a foul. If a handball is accidental, it is a perfectly legitimate way of preventing the ball crossing the line. Awarding a goal for that is mental. Why? If I had my way, which is very unlikely, I would class any advantage gained by the ball striking the hand as a foul and award an indirect free kick, unless it was clearly deliberate then a direct free kick and a card. There are so many inconsistent decisions where games are changed on the interpretation of whether the ball struck the hand deliberately or accidentally. The use of the arm should be prohibited, and refs should not be asked to make impossible judgement calls on a players intent, I don't know if it is still the case, but a couple of seasons ago the criteria for deliberate handball includes whether the arm is in an unnatural position, or moving towards the ball. It is just nonsense and always going to lead to inconsistency. Simple rule, if it hits your hand or arm and you gain an advantage, it is a foul, possession is given to the other team. Simple rule easy to officiate.
James. Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 It is just nonsense and always going to lead to inconsistency. Simple rule, if it hits your hand or arm and you gain an advantage, it is a foul, possession is given to the other team. Simple rule easy to officiate. Agree, it'd basically be like the foot rule in hockey. I'm pretty sure that regardless of whether it was accidental or not if the ball strikes a player's foot it's a foul. Commentators always bang on about hand-to-ball and ball-to-hand but it's applied completely inconsistently. A player should never be able to get away with blocking a shot on the goal line with his arm/hand (and if most of us ever saw that we'd shout penalty whether it was accidental or not).
Darkon84 Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 La Liga play the rule that if it hits your arm/hand, no matter how ridiculously accidental it may be, even having it blasted at your arm by your side from 2 yards = yellow card. Now THATS stupid.
Captain... Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 La Liga play the rule that if it hits your arm/hand, no matter how ridiculously accidental it may be, even having it blasted at your arm by your side from 2 yards = yellow card. Now THATS stupid. That is stupid, but not what I'm saying, just remove this ambiguity about intent, it is impossible to rule on.
leicsmac Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 But the ball actually hasn't gone in, so I can't agree you should give a goal. What's the point in booking the player if you're going to give the goal anyway? His supposed infringement hasn't had a negative effect on the opposition at all. It is cheating, so a player should be punished for cheating. If he's a cheat he shouldn't poison the game by remaining on the pitch. I'm never going to agree you should give goals just because you assume the ball would have gone over the line. If the ball doesn't physically go over the line, it shouldn't ever be a goal. That is the aim of football, to get the ball to go over the goal line. In fact that has the potential to create even more controversy, if it's less than obvious, then the referee has got to decide whether it would have gone in or not. And like I said in the other post, even video replays don't give you a definitive answer sometimes. The opposition would surely consider the sending off and the penalty a more worthy punishment if they scored the penalty. And that is the risk you take if you decide to cheat. Thanks for the response Kitchandro...was going to post again myself but looking above it seems Cap Shrap has pretty much said everything I wanted to say about this particular issue.
Darkon84 Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 That is stupid, but not what I'm saying, just remove this ambiguity about intent, it is impossible to rule on. My comment was directly aimed at you, it was just some general input in to it, thats all
Guest ttfn Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 La Liga play the rule that if it hits your arm/hand, no matter how ridiculously accidental it may be, even having it blasted at your arm by your side from 2 yards = yellow card. Now THATS stupid. What do you mean "La Liga play the rule"?! You can't just make up rules that are fundamentally not in keeping with the laws of the game. I agree that it's odd that you can be punished for other accidental infringements but not for handballs, but the reason that the rule exists is that it would be too easy for opponents to take advantage and deliberately kick the ball at opponents' hands. I actually think the handball rule is good as it is. Take Mills' handball at Forest last year. Not only was it a ridiculous penalty to give because the handball was clearly accidental, but regardless of the rules and on a more philosophical level, it seems mad that you could get punished for stumbling over in and touching the ball with your hand.
Guest ttfn Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 And as for the penalties outside the penalty area thing - NEWSFLASH - that is the point of a penalty area. It's an arbitrary area in which a defender is deemed close enough to goal to be sufficiently infringing on an attacker's chance of scoring that any foul be punished by a clear shot at goal. Having that line on the pitch takes a lot of judgement away from officials and makes the game fairer as a result. The current rule works nicely, except when a penalty AND a red card is involved. I don't get how it can be denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity when you are given a chance to score a penalty, the success rate for which is over 70%.
Fez of Mahrez Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 This sums up how I feel these days about this kind of game: http://magicspongers.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/is-anybody-still-enjoying-this.html
Carl the Llama Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 This sums up how I feel these days about this kind of game: http://magicspongers...oying-this.html ][/color]Again, the ever-popular willy puller gesture was much in evidence, which, unless it was being used in a vain attempt to alert stewards to the fact that someone was ACTUALLY wanking in the stands, and thus committing an act of gross indecency, seemed a little ridiculous. Now, of course that gesture has lost all meaning. They’ve become the boys that cried ‘wank’. Spot on.
Guest MattP Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 Football has just become England in microcosm. A nation full of whiny, small minded, infantile little snitches.
purpleronnie Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 What gets me is how much the ref's talk thesedays, you watch games from a few decades ago the ref barely speaks to players , now they seem to have ****ing conversations with them, just shut up and make the decisions, its as if the ref's want to be best mates with the players.
Captain... Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 What do you mean "La Liga play the rule"?! You can't just make up rules that are fundamentally not in keeping with the laws of the game. I agree that it's odd that you can be punished for other accidental infringements but not for handballs, but the reason that the rule exists is that it would be too easy for opponents to take advantage and deliberately kick the ball at opponents' hands. I actually think the handball rule is good as it is. Take Mills' handball at Forest last year. Not only was it a ridiculous penalty to give because the handball was clearly accidental, but regardless of the rules and on a more philosophical level, it seems mad that you could get punished for stumbling over in and touching the ball with your hand. Hang on, so you are using an example of a ridiculously awarded penalty to justify the current hand ball rules? In my world, did Mills gain an advantage from the ball hitting his hand? As I recall he didn't I think the ball was going nowhere when he slipped and it struck his hand, but I can't remember too well. But if he had gained an advantage, lets say he slipped he was on the floor and the ball hit his hand stopping it from being played into the area. That is not fair on the attacking team as they have had a dangerous cross blocked by someone's hand, it is not fair on the defending to award a penalty as there is no guarantee they would have got on the end of the cross won the ball and scored. A penalty is harsh, doing nothing is just as harsh. Indirect free kick in the box allows the attacking team to get a chance to deliver a dangerous ball into the box, without unnecessarily penalising the defending team. And as for the penalties outside the penalty area thing - NEWSFLASH - that is the point of a penalty area. It's an arbitrary area in which a defender is deemed close enough to goal to be sufficiently infringing on an attacker's chance of scoring that any foul be punished by a clear shot at goal. Having that line on the pitch takes a lot of judgement away from officials and makes the game fairer as a result. The current rule works nicely, except when a penalty AND a red card is involved. I don't get how it can be denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity when you are given a chance to score a penalty, the success rate for which is over 70%. It's not just that though is it, it is also there for the goalkeeper to be allowed to handle in and to indicate when a ball is in play after a goal kick. The current rule does not work nicely, what it does is justify players "taking one for the team" and pulling someone down outside the box to prevent a goal scoring chance, and take a red card for punishment. Do this at the end of the game and you are saving a goal for little punishment. It is basically legitimising fouling, in that it is better to foul someone outside the box than try and tackle them legitimately inside the box, you make it a penalty for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity then people will not do it anywhere near as much and allows the game to flow and be played as it was intended.
Guest MattP Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 What gets me is how much the ref's talk thesedays, you watch games from a few decades ago the ref barely speaks to players , now they seem to have ****ing conversations with them, just shut up and make the decisions, its as if the ref's want to be best mates with the players. Someone last night made a similar comment to me and compared it to teachers, maybe the lack of respect in both cases makes it a good point.
Fez of Mahrez Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 I don't know whether it's true but there's a comment on the Telegraph live blog that Man Utd fans have a banner tonight saying "Chelsea FC - standing up to racism since last Sunday"
Corky Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 Apparently they've also got a banner saying "Clattenburg: Referee, Leader, Legend". http://mobile.twitter.com/henrywinter?
Voll Blau Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 Love the originality and wit of Man U fans. I only our fanbase had the same qualities...
Captain... Posted 31 October 2012 Posted 31 October 2012 Love the originality and wit of Man U fans. I only our fanbase had the same qualities... Make a fvcking banner then.
RobHawk Posted 1 November 2012 Posted 1 November 2012 I do think the way we go about enforcing the rules of football needs to change! I am a regular referee for lacrosse and whilst the sports are completely different, if anyone talks back to me or if i hear a player swear, they are off for 1 minute penalty! i make this clear to all players and take no crap!! a 1 minute penalty can make a massive difference in lacrosse and its going to make no difference to football, but have a sin bin style punishment does give referees much more strength to stand up to players. Sending a player off in the 1st minute of the game for telling the ref to f**k off, knowing the team will be down to 10 men for 89 minutes and then that player will miss 3 games is ridiculous. Sending them off for ten or fifteen minutes puts their team under pressure but does not make such a huge difference. I can guarantee things like surrounding or confronting the referee would soon stop. Imagine 4 or 5 players surrounding the referee and them all being sent off for 10 minutes! To referee a game properly and efficiently you need to give the ref the tools to do this. Red and yellow cards just isn't enough in the modern game!
marko Posted 1 November 2012 Posted 1 November 2012 So now Chelsea think what Clattenburg said might have been lost in translation because of his heavy Geordie accent.
leicsmac Posted 1 November 2012 Posted 1 November 2012 I do think the way we go about enforcing the rules of football needs to change! I am a regular referee for lacrosse and whilst the sports are completely different, if anyone talks back to me or if i hear a player swear, they are off for 1 minute penalty! i make this clear to all players and take no crap!! a 1 minute penalty can make a massive difference in lacrosse and its going to make no difference to football, but have a sin bin style punishment does give referees much more strength to stand up to players. Sending a player off in the 1st minute of the game for telling the ref to f**k off, knowing the team will be down to 10 men for 89 minutes and then that player will miss 3 games is ridiculous. Sending them off for ten or fifteen minutes puts their team under pressure but does not make such a huge difference. I can guarantee things like surrounding or confronting the referee would soon stop. Imagine 4 or 5 players surrounding the referee and them all being sent off for 10 minutes! To referee a game properly and efficiently you need to give the ref the tools to do this. Red and yellow cards just isn't enough in the modern game! This. I like the idea of a rugby-style sin bin...would allow some flexibility in terms of punishments.
Fox92 Posted 1 November 2012 Posted 1 November 2012 Oh dear, a Chelsea fan caught making a monkey gesture... http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/league-cup-chelsea-fan-pictured-making-monkey-gesture-101323228.html
accessory Posted 1 November 2012 Posted 1 November 2012 Apparently they've also got a banner saying "Clattenburg: Referee, Leader, Legend". http://mobile.twitter.com/henrywinter?
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