leicsmac Posted 14 July 2013 Posted 14 July 2013 is this good or bad ? not sure i belive either side Probably an aggravated killing caused by Zimmerman simply not liking the look of Martin as he walked through his neighbourhood, but more than enough reasonable doubt about that for a not guilty verdict. Bottom line is gun and self-defence laws in the US are a bit messed up, but then everyone knew that anyway.
Guest Posted 14 July 2013 Posted 14 July 2013 Probably an aggravated killing caused by Zimmerman simply not liking the look of Martin as he walked through his neighbourhood, but more than enough reasonable doubt about that for a not guilty verdict. Bottom line is gun and self-defence laws in the US are a bit messed up, but then everyone knew that anyway. Seem to be particularly messed up in this case as I understand this rested on a state law that allows people to use 'necessary force' when they deem that they're under threat. Obviously that's a general outline of it but having read a bit about it it seems like there's too many aspects of that law open to interpretation.
LcFc_Smiv Posted 14 July 2013 Posted 14 July 2013 This quote summed it up for me: 'The most damning element is not that George Zimmerman was found innocent: it’s that Trayvon Martin was found guilty'
David Guiza Posted 14 July 2013 Posted 14 July 2013 Whether or not the verdict was correct, I can't help but feel that the media have once again portrayed a very misguided view. Not quite to the same extent as the OJ trial/verdict, but as with probably anyone, anything I have ever read/watched has involved him being guilty as a fact; however the facts of the trial actually do not back that up by any means. From what I understand, some of Zimmerman's quotes were edited to make him appear to be racist. Anything I have ever studied regarding self defence is very grey and not at all clear, who is to say what is necessary force in the circumstances unless they are actually there; within reason naturally. As will be the case when Pistorius finally goes to trial again, however in my view that is a lot more clear in terms of guilt.
Guest Posted 14 July 2013 Posted 14 July 2013 Anything I have ever studied regarding self defence is very grey and not at all clear, who is to say what is necessary force in the circumstances unless they are actually there; within reason naturally. As will be the case when Pistorius finally goes to trial again, however in my view that is a lot more clear in terms of guilt. That's fair enough but the other bloke isn't here to argue his side of the case as to what was necessary. And whilst personally I don't know enough to come down on either side of this case with a properly informed opinion, it makes me feel quite suspicious because of that state law.
johnny the fox Posted 14 July 2013 Posted 14 July 2013 hope they film the police handing him his gun back now ....
darko2k7 Posted 14 July 2013 Posted 14 July 2013 So after reading up on this i understood it as the kid was walking through the complex when Zimmerman thought he was a gang member ( which he wasn't ) . And then tackled him to the ground , then when the lad got the upper hand only defending him self Zimmerman took out the gun to which you can hear the young unarmed lad cry for help ( 911 recording) and then he shot him . So how can Zimmerman get away with self defence when he started the fight ?
Merging Cultures Posted 14 July 2013 Posted 14 July 2013 It is ridiculous. Zimmerman was told by 911 to not get out of his car. He told 911 he had to get out to find a street sign. Despite him living one street over and him being a community watchman. He clearly new the name of the street and intended to confront Trayvon. He pursued Trayvon in the dark. The boy was clearly threatened by being followed (as I would be). He stood his ground and was shot. Zimmerman then claimed to have stood his ground despite being the one who hunted down Trayvon. I can't wait to leave the US.
21st Century Fox Posted 14 July 2013 Posted 14 July 2013 I wonder how long it'll be until he feels safe enough to release his "I didn't kill that kid but if I did kill that kid, this is how it hypothetically would've gone down" book? I'm going for the Christmas market.
ealingfox Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 Beyond ridiculous that he was not convicted, he will get his gun back, and Martin's family will never get him back. Just a horrible, horrible day in US history as far as I'm concerned, they have not come far at all. Anyone who cannot see how truly sad and despicable this is should ask themselves what they think the verdict would have been had everything been the same, except Zimmerman was black and Martin white.
MPH Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 So after reading up on this i understood it as the kid was walking through the complex when Zimmerman thought he was a gang member ( which he wasn't ) . And then tackled him to the ground , then when the lad got the upper hand only defending him self Zimmerman took out the gun to which you can hear the young unarmed lad cry for help ( 911 recording) and then he shot him . So how can Zimmerman get away with self defence when he started the fight ? Its all on the news over here in North Carolina... but there are plenty of details that don't seem to coming through that you have to dig for.... Specifically the media portrayal of Trayvon.... The photo that the BBC have been using of this cute little Trayvon was taken when Trayvon was 12 years old.. At the time of his very tragic death he was 17 years old, 6ft 2 and weighed 180 lbs- with completely different photos all over his social media of him trying to act all gangster style. He was also suspended from school for fighting ( again), was a drug dealer to his friends and had been picked up by the police ( again) just 2 days before his very sad death. None of that makes him a candidate to be shot of course, but some media outlets ought to be ashamed of themselves for portraying him as this cute little innocent boy and I think they should take a lot of the blame for whipping people up into a frenzy over this Zimmerman DID follow Trayvon, who he, h\as you rightly said, mistook him as a gang member from a gang who had been terrorizing that affluent gated community for some time... Trayvon then slipped away and came up behind Zimmerman and tackled him to the ground ( according to Zimmerman). Not sure where you got that it was Zimmerman who was tackled to the ground as there were no witnesses to the fight - there were only people who heard the fight. However, the injuries Zimmerman suffered, according to a forensic scientist and then also a doctor testified too were consistent with Zimmerman's account of trayvon being on top of him repeatedly slamming his head into the ground. It was then claimed that Trayvon tried to get hold of Zimmerman's gun. The jury were given the option of convicting Zimmerman of the lesser charge of manslaughter... so you have to ask the question why did the Jury ( some of whom were black), after hearing ALL the evidence, acquit Zimmerman of ALL charges? Zimmerman before the trial had already apologized to Trayvon's family, had already said to them if he could go back in time and change his decision to follow Trayvon then he would... again, other things not reported in the mainstream media.. Could I of done the same thing Zimmerman did? I really don't think I could... Carrying a gun is a massive game changer... but then again he wasn't just an average guy walking the streets, he was involved in a neighborhood watch scheme ( that he himself set up) and was out actively looking for people who might be causing trouble. George Zimmerman wasn't actually tried or (defended by his team) using the controversial ' stand your ground' law. It wasn't once mentioned during his trial.. It was however the reason why he wasn't arrested for 6 weeks after Trayvons death. The sad thing is of course that a young man has lost his life - a mother has lost her son and some siblings have lost their big brother. The man acquitted has had death threats and will have to be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life. Its just all very very tragic and there really are no winners.
Jordan Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 This is a travesty of justice. Trayvon Martin may not have been the most innocent kid, but it seemed clear that he was innocent on the night he was killed before George Zimmerman decided to play police officer. Sure, Zimmerman had every right to be upset about a wave of burglaries in his neighborhood. Zimmerman, though, clearly overstepped his boundaries pursuing Martin. Zimmerman was instructed by 911 dispatchers not to pursue Martin. As a neighborhood watch volunteer, Zimmerman had made similar 911 calls before, and had been told by dispatchers in those cases not to pursue the suspect. Zimmerman, though, was frustrated at previous crooks fleeing--"the bastards always get away"---and decided to take matters into his own hands. Also, his alibi that he was getting out of his car to check a street sign is unbelievable. Zimmerman was familiar with his home neighborhood and jurors should have had no reason to believe Zimmerman was lost, as BaltimoreBlue said. Martin noticed Zimmerman stalking him in his car and had good reason to be alarmed and defensive. Zimmerman bit off more than he could chew and he was getting his ass whooped That said, though, I would doubt that the nature of the fight and the injuries necessitated Zimmerman using lethal force against Martin. And would Zimmerman even have gone into this situation if he weren't packing heat? And while it's true that "stand your ground" (which is a disgrace of a law) was not the focus of this trial, the Sanford PD and the attorney general's office did not initially investigate this as a crime because of SYG. Zimmerman was initially let go after cursory examinations and interviews. The police and AG offices were widely condemned for initially handling this case so terribly. Perhaps the prosecution did not adequately prove that this killing rose to the level of 2nd-degree murder, in which case I can understand. However, when it comes to whether or not Zimmerman is responsible for Martin's death, IMO that's a slam dunk. There is more than enough here to find Zimmerman liable in a wrongful death civil suit, and this had to be at least manslaughter as well. Why didn't the jury reach the same verdict I did? I would say a big part of this has to do with the defense successfully sowing seeds of doubt into their minds. Without eyewitness testimony, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime occurred. The defense made this the centerpiece of their closing argument. What passes for law and order in Florida murder cases is absurd. While I have family in FL and think it's a nice place to visit on occasion, I would never live there. The state is a political and legal basketcase.
ozleicester Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 Would the entire event have been different if Trayvon was white? There's your answer folks. Edit-
MPH Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 Why didn't the jury reach the same verdict I did? I would say a big part of this has to do with the defense successfully sowing seeds of doubt into their minds. Without eyewitness testimony, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime occurred. The defense made this the centerpiece of their closing argument. Could it not be that they also sat through a few weeks of evidence too and you didn't?
Bob Weasel Fox Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 Its all on the news over here in North Carolina... but there are plenty of details that don't seem to coming through that you have to dig for.... Specifically the media portrayal of Trayvon.... The photo that the BBC have been using of this cute little Trayvon was taken when Trayvon was 12 years old.. At the time of his very tragic death he was 17 years old, 6ft 2 and weighed 180 lbs- with completely different photos all over his social media of him trying to act all gangster style. He was also suspended from school for fighting ( again), was a drug dealer to his friends and had been picked up by the police ( again) just 2 days before his very sad death. None of that makes him a candidate to be shot of course, but some media outlets ought to be ashamed of themselves for portraying him as this cute little innocent boy and I think they should take a lot of the blame for whipping people up into a frenzy over this Zimmerman DID follow Trayvon, who he, h\as you rightly said, mistook him as a gang member from a gang who had been terrorizing that affluent gated community for some time... Trayvon then slipped away and came up behind Zimmerman and tackled him to the ground ( according to Zimmerman). Not sure where you got that it was Zimmerman who was tackled to the ground as there were no witnesses to the fight - there were only people who heard the fight. However, the injuries Zimmerman suffered, according to a forensic scientist and then also a doctor testified too were consistent with Zimmerman's account of trayvon being on top of him repeatedly slamming his head into the ground. It was then claimed that Trayvon tried to get hold of Zimmerman's gun. The jury were given the option of convicting Zimmerman of the lesser charge of manslaughter... so you have to ask the question why did the Jury ( some of whom were black), after hearing ALL the evidence, acquit Zimmerman of ALL charges? Zimmerman before the trial had already apologized to Trayvon's family, had already said to them if he could go back in time and change his decision to follow Trayvon then he would... again, other things not reported in the mainstream media.. Could I of done the same thing Zimmerman did? I really don't think I could... Carrying a gun is a massive game changer... but then again he wasn't just an average guy walking the streets, he was involved in a neighborhood watch scheme ( that he himself set up) and was out actively looking for people who might be causing trouble. George Zimmerman wasn't actually tried or (defended by his team) using the controversial ' stand your ground' law. It wasn't once mentioned during his trial.. It was however the reason why he wasn't arrested for 6 weeks after Trayvons death. The sad thing is of course that a young man has lost his life - a mother has lost her son and some siblings have lost their big brother. The man acquitted has had death threats and will have to be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life. Its just all very very tragic and there really are no winners. Very sensible level headed post
darko2k7 Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 Its all on the news over here in North Carolina... but there are plenty of details that don't seem to coming through that you have to dig for.... Specifically the media portrayal of Trayvon.... The photo that the BBC have been using of this cute little Trayvon was taken when Trayvon was 12 years old.. At the time of his very tragic death he was 17 years old, 6ft 2 and weighed 180 lbs- with completely different photos all over his social media of him trying to act all gangster style. He was also suspended from school for fighting ( again), was a drug dealer to his friends and had been picked up by the police ( again) just 2 days before his very sad death. None of that makes him a candidate to be shot of course, but some media outlets ought to be ashamed of themselves for portraying him as this cute little innocent boy and I think they should take a lot of the blame for whipping people up into a frenzy over this Zimmerman DID follow Trayvon, who he, h\as you rightly said, mistook him as a gang member from a gang who had been terrorizing that affluent gated community for some time... Trayvon then slipped away and came up behind Zimmerman and tackled him to the ground ( according to Zimmerman). Not sure where you got that it was Zimmerman who was tackled to the ground as there were no witnesses to the fight - there were only people who heard the fight. However, the injuries Zimmerman suffered, according to a forensic scientist and then also a doctor testified too were consistent with Zimmerman's account of trayvon being on top of him repeatedly slamming his head into the ground. It was then claimed that Trayvon tried to get hold of Zimmerman's gun. The jury were given the option of convicting Zimmerman of the lesser charge of manslaughter... so you have to ask the question why did the Jury ( some of whom were black), after hearing ALL the evidence, acquit Zimmerman of ALL charges? Zimmerman before the trial had already apologized to Trayvon's family, had already said to them if he could go back in time and change his decision to follow Trayvon then he would... again, other things not reported in the mainstream media.. Could I of done the same thing Zimmerman did? I really don't think I could... Carrying a gun is a massive game changer... but then again he wasn't just an average guy walking the streets, he was involved in a neighborhood watch scheme ( that he himself set up) and was out actively looking for people who might be causing trouble. George Zimmerman wasn't actually tried or (defended by his team) using the controversial ' stand your ground' law. It wasn't once mentioned during his trial.. It was however the reason why he wasn't arrested for 6 weeks after Trayvons death. The sad thing is of course that a young man has lost his life - a mother has lost her son and some siblings have lost their big brother. The man acquitted has had death threats and will have to be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life. Its just all very very tragic and there really are no winners. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23307610 This is the news story i watched where it says Zimmerman tackled him . But i do agree with people when they say if it had been the opposite way round ( race wise ) he would of been found guilty of at least manslaughter IMO.
MPH Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23307610 This is the news story i watched where it says Zimmerman tackled him . But i do agree with people when they say if it had been the opposite way round ( race wise ) he would of been found guilty of at least manslaughter IMO. The flip side of that coin is that more young black men are convicted of killing young black men than anyone else, yet. As soon as its someone who isn't black the media grab it by the throat and run with it.....
Trav Le Bleu Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 This is what you have when you have whole communities that live behind walls (it was a gated community). A seige mentality that sees everyone who is a stranger as "up to no good."
Jon the Hat Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 To be fair they had had a number of break ins, and failures by the police to catch suspicious people for questioning. You can understand why he followed him, but clearly getting into a violent confrontation was a bad idea. It is hard to see how he got into a fight without someone being agresssive though - if you were walking along and someone challenged your right to be there, would you not say you were staying with someone around the corner? Why was that not the course of events? Either becuase Martin was indeed aware of being followed and looped back to take the guy out for whatever reason, or Zimmerman contronted him aggressively and shot Martin when he was losing the fight.
Bettsj2 Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 The speculation over who started the fight or why is a bit of a smokescreen. The fact is the only reason that the kid is dead is because Zimmerman shot him. TM was doing nothing wrong and he's dead. When someone loses their life in this way, regardless of colour, someone must pay. What we have now is an open season to kill with a prescedent set. Dangerous times ahead.
MrSpaM Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 I don't understand why anybody other than a police officer should be carrying a gun around in public in the first place. Gun laws in America are absolutely ridiculous.
Guest MattP Posted 15 July 2013 Posted 15 July 2013 Zimmerman isn't white he is Hispanic. As for the race reverse argument it's laughable. OJ anyone? Have to love America. Mixed race Obama = black. Mixed race Zimmerman = white. Case was fcuked up but under the laws and definition of 2nd degree murder I can see why they had no option but to find him not guilty. Law seems an ass and im amazed anyone goes down gor murder in that state. Gated communities are not ideal but that's a consequence of the world be live in, ive got family in Bloemfontein and if you are white in South Africa you wouldn't live anywhere but a gated community unless your want your life to be living hell.
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