The state of modern football - Is top 4 in the premier league 'Realistic' for us?

[cityfanlee23]

Before I get all of the "Let's wait until we are in the premiership first"

I do not expect us to be a "Big" club anytime soon...

 

Now don't get me wrong, this is not me trying to walk before we run,

To me it is unforeseeable for us to reach top 4 football for the considerable future, Even if we built and built and built for the next 15 years It would be a struggle...

 

But with the state of modern football, and the money involved, Will we ever be able to get to those heights or will we simply be priced out???

 

Even if it's 30 years, do we think we could even build our team or squad to challenge the elite?

 

We have seen now that seemingly 'Average' Teams, can of course solidify themselves in the mid table, Teams that we played only a few seasons ago, Your southamptons, West broms, Swansea (To an extent) your stokes, Can we do that? and then maybe even push on even further?

 

With the profits we would make in the premier league, I think a steady approach could see us over the next 10-20 years really pushing ourselves into those top 8 spots, Fulham done it for a spell? why can't we?

 

 

 

Now again, This is not a "We are top of the league we will win the champions league in 3 years" thread.

 

 

This is a discussion about the state of modern football, and if that leaves an opportunity for your championship "Giants" like us, or Leeds, to ever mix it with the top dogs again?

 

as we have seen in history with your forests or derby, in those days clubs could get promoted and win the division 1 in a matter of a few seasons..

 

Personally I feel that in the next 10 years we will see FFP strengthen and really clamp down on the top teams spending, in world football, as IMO it is a downhill spiral about to happen. and it cannot be sustained.

 

what would have to change to make something like this a 'Realistic' ambition for clubs the size of Leicester city.

 

I am just waiting for the crash and burn of spending 300k a week on wages on 1 player and the gap between leagues closing!

 

 

 

 

Just an interesting topic after watching "One night in May" about Liverpool 2005 Istanbul, The atmosphere, The European nights, the dancing on street corners with thousands of other fans in pure celebration together...

 

Take a Look at freiburg, The Leicester city of Germany if you will, Up and down season after season, until promoted in 2008, Where they finished the first season back in the Bundesliga in 16th, Building to last seasons finish of 5th It's a difficult comparison to make as it shares little similarity, but a club of a smaller stature, went from the Bundesliga 2 (Which is less competitive than the championship) to coming 5th in the Bundesliga and getting into Europe, A league that we would struggle in now)

 

So building is the key, Everything would have to go right for us for about 20 years! but would it ever be possible in this day and age?

 

 

 

Just an interesting topic that got me thinking...

Could we EVER be a European competition club?

[Dan]

If we were taken over by a Qatari oil baron then we could.

 

Money absolutely dictates the game in this country and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

[MC Prussian]

Can we get promoted first?

[davieG]

Those teams, "Your southamptons, West broms, Swansea (To an extent) your stokes" will inevitably end up back in the Championship just as we did post MON and nearly all the teams currently in the Championship.

 

Getting promoted to the PL becomes a question of how long can you stay there.

[_Fatboyslow_]

Close thread. Reopen in 5 years time

[foxfanazer]

There are so many ifs and buts that it makes it difficult question to answer. We need to build gradually and cement ourselves as a second lid premiership side before we have any aspirations of European qualification.

Although they don't look brilliant this season Swansea have the right idea imo. Stick to a philosophy and integrate players into that system rather than buy a bunch of players and hope the personell is good enough to keep you up (like QPR did).

Obviously we need to get there first which is anything but a formality but I'm happy with the whole set up at the moment and the signs are good for this great club

[AKCJ]

Can I have some please? Is it expensive? do you sniff it or smoke it?

 

 

The above quote was taken from the Liam Moore thread after he suggested we could be top 8 this time next year.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Sky would have to go bust for this to happen.

Fingers crossed they do.

[cityfanlee23]

If we were taken over by a Qatari oil baron then we could.

 

Money absolutely dictates the game in this country and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

 

 

I think it could be a bit of both,

We need to get richer, (As we will if we are promoted with £140m tv revenues per season)

But Also think FFP will bring down the big clubs to earth.

[cityfanlee23]

The above quote was taken from the Liam Moore thread after he suggested we could be top 8 this time next year.

 

Oh right so asking (NOT SUGGESTING) if we could EVER be a top 8 club in the next 50 YEARS, is too ambitious?

 

Yet when Milan Manderic said he wanted to make us a top 8 club, Everyone kissed his arse?

Out of debt and richer than ever, top of the league and we cannot discuss it?

 

 

Like I said, this is not the "Leicester city will win the champions league" thread,

This is a  "With our structure, could we ever win it with the way football is run today?" Thread. Clearly you missed that.

[Foxymcoxy]

No it isn't realistic. If we finish top 10 in the next 8 years I win £200 off my gunner mate though, praying for that.

[sylofox]

We can only answer this once we go up.

 

We have no idea the level of investment our owners could/will make if we go up.

Once we secure a place and see how a closed season spending goes then we may have an idea.

 

A stable mid table yes we could achieve top four or five will take time even if our owners back us with large amounts of cash.

 

Look at man city's spending and they are not running away with the league and sat behind arsenal who have spent little in comparison.

 

Who knows spent right 100mil could put us in the region of top4/6.

One thing is for sure if that becomes the case the KP will be to small.

[AKCJ]

Oh right so asking (NOT SUGGESTING) if we could EVER be a top 8 club in the next 50 YEARS, is too ambitious?

 

Yet when Milan Manderic said he wanted to make us a top 8 club, Everyone kissed his arse?

Out of debt and richer than ever, top of the league and we cannot discuss it?

 

 

Like I said, this is not the "Leicester city will win the champions league" thread,

This is a  "With our structure, could we ever win it with the way football is run today?" Thread. Clearly you missed that.

 

 

I'm agreeing with you lol

[Father Ted]

Why not? Who'd have said Man City would be where they are now when they scraped through the play offs in the old Third Division only 15 seasons ago. 

 

Look at Leeds' capitulation, Champions League semi-final to League One within years. Football can change very quick but ultimately it all revolves around money and if we went up and the Thai's splashed it about then why not?

[Harry - LCFC]

I think we could go a level below that.

 

Instead of top four, top eight. Instead of the Champions League, the Europa League. Regular quarter-finalists rather than finalists in the cups.

 

Even then I think that's unlikely.

[Corky]

To be honest I'm not all that bothered about the Champions League in all honesty, I'd rather overachieve as a smaller club like we did in the late-90s/ early 00's and do well in the domestic cups.

 

To achieve the top 4 regularly we'd have to be taken over by someone with an endless stream of cash and then things at the club might change. I'm not entirely comfortable with all the things that the Thai's have done but so far they seem to have grasped certain aspects of the club and we've had no talk of name changes, kit colour changes, meddling with team and transfer selections.

 

Though if we do have incredible success I won't complain, just hope we retain some of the great things about the club in doing so.

[Carl the Llama]

An early runner for Most Embarrassing Thread Title 2014.

[Captain...]

Looks like people are struggling with the concept of hypothetical questions again, maybe this would have been in general sport as really it is about the top 6, rather than  us.

 

Chelsea weren't that big a deal until Roman took over, and Man City, despite their history, are only their because of the money, Tottenham were breaking through slowly, but showed their true ambition by selling Modric, Bale I understand, but Modric was a real player that could make them tick, they also seem have done their best to undo all their good work by buying a load of overpriced shit and that could cost them for the next few seasons in the way Sven's spending cost us.

 

United are proving to be no great shakes without Whiskeynose whilst Liverpool and Arsenal are having a bit of a resurgence due to long term planning and sensible buying and not massive backers. Just outside you have Everton, a team we could aspire to be like, obviously we don't have their history but there is no reason why we couldn't be regularly challenging for Europa league spots.

 

The problem is the champions league money is going to maintain the status quo for a long time, especially if FFP comes in for the prem, then champions league money is going to ensure that the big 4 stay the big four, if United don't qualify for the CL this year, then could really drop away, they don't have the financial backing of the other big clubs, and they need a serious rebuild job on their team. We've seen how Liverpool struggled to reclaim their top four position after they fell away.

 

Our chances of getting a CL place are miniscule, even if we had unlimited backing by TOP and he was prepared to put all his money into the club and were permitted to use it without restrictions or penalties, so many other clubs have similar backings that it actually wouldn't make a difference, we wouldn't be able to attract the best players and wouldn't be able to build up a team good enough to compete with the best for a very very long time, and would probably require developing players into world beaters rather than buying them.

 

Realistically the very best any promoted team could hope for is to be the next Everton, but even they have had a few relegation scraps in the not too distant past, any promoted team should though be aiming for survival and nothing more, then they can build.

[foxfanazer]

To be honest I'm not all that bothered about the Champions League in all honesty, I'd rather overachieve as a smaller club like we did in the late-90s/ early 00's and do well in the domestic cups.

To achieve the top 4 regularly we'd have to be taken over by someone with an endless stream of cash and then things at the club might change. I'm not entirely comfortable with all the things that the Thai's have done but so far they seem to have grasped certain aspects of the club and we've had no talk of name changes, kit colour changes, meddling with team and transfer selections.

Though if we do have incredible success I won't complain, just hope we retain some of the great things about the club in doing so.

Yeah I agree. A bloke I work with is a long time Man City fan and whilst he's loving winning trophies and playing champions league games, he said they have sort of lost their identity. They now expect to win every game rather than hope. A lot of the stories he tells me are about divison 1 and 2 games at Maine Road etc.

Wouldn't want to lose the underdog spirit that makes this club so special

[Nick]

Man City came up to the Prem after back to back promotions 1999-2000 and 2000-2001.

 

13 Years on they'll be winning the League again this season.

 

Depends who owns a club I guess.

[sylofox]

I think it could be a bit of both,

We need to get richer, (As we will if we are promoted with £140m tv revenues per season)

But Also think FFP will bring down the big clubs to earth.

That will not make us richer. (read the rest before you laff)

 

As I said to a derby fan once when they went up.

He said we have 20mil sky money to spend next year I said no you don't.

All you have to spend is what your chairman gets out of his own back pocket.

 

Every club in the prem has the sky money to spend and most if not nearly all have a stronger squad your first year up.

A lot have bigger grounds with higher attendances and higher sponsorship deals.

 

Your difference and the difference at chelski man city tottenham (last summer) is the money over and above sky money you have to spend.

 

Even if ffp makes a difference there squads are so strong it would take 4/5 years before the gap closes.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Anything can happen over 30 years.

 

1984  Final positions

 

Pos Team                                 Pld   W D L F   A             W D L F  A     F   A   GD   Pts Notes

1 Liverpool                              42   14 5 2 50 12            8 9 4 23 20     73 32 +41   80 

2 Southampton                          42   15 4 2 44 17           7 7 7 22 21     66 38 +28   77 

3 Nottingham Forest                 42   14 4 3 47 17            8 4 9 29 28     76 45 +31   74

4 Manchester United                 42   14 3 4 43 18           6 11 4 28 23    71 41 +30   74

5 Queens Park Rangers           42   14 4 3 37 12           8 3 10 30 25    67 37 +30   73

6 Arsenal                                  42   10 5 6 41 29           8 4 9 33 31      74 60 +14   63

7 Everton                                  42   9 9 3 21 12             7 5 9 23 30     44 42 +2      62

8 Tottenham Hotspur                42   11 4 6 31 24           6 6 9 33 41      64 65 –1      61

9 West Ham United                   42   10 4 7 39 24           7 5 9 21 31      60 55 +5     60

10 Aston Villa                            42   14 3 4 34 22          3 6 12 25 39    59 61 –2     60

11 Watford                                42   9 7 5 36 31            7 2 12 32 46     68 77 –9     57

12 Ipswich Town                       42   11 4 6 34 23           4 4 13 21 34     55 57 –2    53

13 Sunderland                         42   8 9 4 26 18             5 4 12 16 35     42 53 –11  52

14 Norwich City                        42   9 8 4 34 20             3 7 11 14 29     48 49 –1    51

15 Leicester City                      42   11 5 5 40 30           2 7 12 25 38     65 68 –3    51

16 Luton Town                         42   7 5 9 30 33             7 4 10 23 33     53 66 –13   51

17 West Bromwich Albion        42   10 4 7 30 25           4 5 12 18 37     48 62 –14   51

18 Stoke City                           42   11 4 6 30 23            2 7 12 14 40    44 63 –19   50

19 Coventry City                      42   8 5 8 33 33             5 6 10 24 44    57 77 –20   50

20 Birmingham City                  42   7 7 7 19 18             5 5 11 20 32    39 50 –11   48  

21 Notts County                       42   6 7 8 31 36             4 4 13 19 36    50 72 –22   41  

22 Wolverhampton Wndrs       42   4 8 9 15 28             2 3 16 12 52    27 80 –53   29  

 

Southampton 2nd, Forest 3rd 30 years ago, so I wouldn't say it's "impossible", but it's definitely very long-term.

[cityfanlee23]

To be honest I'm not all that bothered about the Champions League in all honesty, I'd rather overachieve as a smaller club like we did in the late-90s/ early 00's and do well in the domestic cups.

 

To achieve the top 4 regularly we'd have to be taken over by someone with an endless stream of cash and then things at the club might change. I'm not entirely comfortable with all the things that the Thai's have done but so far they seem to have grasped certain aspects of the club and we've had no talk of name changes, kit colour changes, meddling with team and transfer selections.

 

Though if we do have incredible success I won't complain, just hope we retain some of the great things about the club in doing so.

 

 

I think we could go a level below that.

 

Instead of top four, top eight. Instead of the Champions League, the Europa League. Regular quarter-finalists rather than finalists in the cups.

 

Even then I think that's unlikely.

 

 

Why not? Who'd have said Man City would be where they are now when they scraped through the play offs in the old Third Division only 15 seasons ago. 

 

Look at Leeds' capitulation, Champions League semi-final to League One within years. Football can change very quick but ultimately it all revolves around money and if we went up and the Thai's splashed it about then why not?

 

 

I'm agreeing with you lol

 

 

Finally people that actually see what I am trying to say without sarcastic comments to get their Reputation count up

 

When I say Europe, It could also be top 6 Europa league, Take a Look at arsenal, Invested in younger players, and are the richest club in the world through being sensible, They have not won a lot for a long time, but are going the right way about it now..

 

Fully expect southampton to be a top 8 club in the next few years, FFS Villa done it..

[cityfanlee23]

Looks like people are struggling with the concept of hypothetical questions again, maybe this would have been in general sport as really it is about the top 6, rather than  us.

 

Chelsea weren't that big a deal until Roman took over, and Man City, despite their history, are only their because of the money, Tottenham were breaking through slowly, but showed their true ambition by selling Modric, Bale I understand, but Modric was a real player that could make them tick, they also seem have done their best to undo all their good work by buying a load of overpriced shit and that could cost them for the next few seasons in the way Sven's spending cost us.

 

United are proving to be no great shakes without Whiskeynose whilst Liverpool and Arsenal are having a bit of a resurgence due to long term planning and sensible buying and not massive backers. Just outside you have Everton, a team we could aspire to be like, obviously we don't have their history but there is no reason why we couldn't be regularly challenging for Europa league spots.

 

The problem is the champions league money is going to maintain the status quo for a long time, especially if FFP comes in for the prem, then champions league money is going to ensure that the big 4 stay the big four, if United don't qualify for the CL this year, then could really drop away, they don't have the financial backing of the other big clubs, and they need a serious rebuild job on their team. We've seen how Liverpool struggled to reclaim their top four position after they fell away.

 

Our chances of getting a CL place are miniscule, even if we had unlimited backing by TOP and he was prepared to put all his money into the club and were permitted to use it without restrictions or penalties, so many other clubs have similar backings that it actually wouldn't make a difference, we wouldn't be able to attract the best players and wouldn't be able to build up a team good enough to compete with the best for a very very long time, and would probably require developing players into world beaters rather than buying them.

 

Realistically the very best any promoted team could hope for is to be the next Everton, but even they have had a few relegation scraps in the not too distant past, any promoted team should though be aiming for survival and nothing more, then they can build.

 

Which is why I made it 20+ years

A nice read

[Captain...]

Yeah I agree. A bloke I work with is a long time Man City fan and whilst he's loving winning trophies and playing champions league games, he said they have sort of lost their identity. They now expect to win every game rather than hope. A lot of the stories he tells me are about divison 1 and 2 games at Maine Road etc.

Wouldn't want to lose the underdog spirit that makes this club so special

 

Hasn't that already happened to an extent with us? When was the last time we were underdogs?