Malaysia Airlines MH17 - Ukraine

[Merging Cultures]

Unless the west denies all responsibility like the Russians do whenever something like this happens.  Lets be honest, with their propaganda machine they aren't going to like us or hate us anymore than they already do.  

 

Nato simply cannot continue brushing this under the carpet, especially not now a large number of it's citizens have been murdered and their bodies disgraced.

 

Except, they wouldn't accept a denial. They would have evidence, just like we have evidence they are behind this. The difference being, they cannot be seen as weak. They would have to respond. Whereas our politics is not predicated on being super macho. Which has been a weakness so far for the west. We haven't been able to stop Russia's restrengthening and this has led to their emboldening and them taking more parts of Ukraine, and ultimately this 'accident'.

 

I don't think we have the balls to call them out on their denial of involvement. As has been said, no clear evidence of who did this is probably the best solution for global politics. Even though, the US has already said they have solid evidence of where the rocket came from... so who knows.

[Merging Cultures]

Love how brainwashed everyone seems to be by western media into blaming russia for all of this.

Is it really that hard to believe that Ukrainian people are unhappy with a government that came into power by overthrowing the last goverment. Partly due to the violence and persistence of right wing, almost neo-nazi like factions.

Of course the us, eu and nato are going to blame Russia. They stand to gain most from the new Ukrainian government staying in power and joining the eu.

This was a horrible incident and it's outrageous how it was instantly turned into an anti-russia propaganda story.

Will be interesting to see where this story goes and whether it'll get any coverage with the BBC and sky.

http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/07/18/a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-webs-many-mh17-conspiracy-theories/

 

Fill your boots on that.

 

It really seems most likely, that pro-Russian separatists made a mistake and shot down a civilian plane rather than the Ukrainian military one they intended to shoot down.

[IOWFOX]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/07/18/a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-webs-many-mh17-conspiracy-theories/

Fill your boots on that.

It really seems most likely, that pro-Russian separatists made a mistake and shot down a civilian plane rather than the Ukrainian military one they intended to shoot down.

Well considering that article is from a paper that supported obama's elections and the invasion of Iraq. Unsurprisingly it was full of sensationalist crap.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

No chance they've shot it down on purpose knowing it was a civilian jet - it achieves absolutely nothing for them. Also, no chance the Russian's would have given them the weapons if they knew they were stupid enough to do this.  

 

Better that Cameron stays quiet on this; he really can't achieve anything on his own - and Putin would probably destroy Cameron in a war of words. Putin's not stupid, even though he won't admit it publicly he knows this makes him look bad - and if the West play it right they might be able to de-escalate this situation. If they attack Putin in the press he will just dig his heels in. 

I certainly believe Russia had a hand in it, despite their denial. They are showing their old colours, by invading the Crimea, and the sabre rattling will soon begin. As we experienced in the sixties, they enjoy confrontations with any suitable Western country, and the U.S.A. Putin, like Kruschov, could end up pushing to a brink of war, which is what happened over the Cuba crisis in the sixties.

 

We had a saying in those days, "Better dead than Red" Perhaps we should re introduce it.

[Merging Cultures]

Well considering that article is from a paper that supported obama's elections and the invasion of Iraq. Unsurprisingly it was full of sensationalist crap.

Zingari???!

[Ghost Troop]

Love how brainwashed everyone seems to be by western media into blaming russia for all of this.

Is it really that hard to believe that Ukrainian people are unhappy with a government that came into power by overthrowing the last goverment. Partly due to the violence and persistence of right wing, almost neo-nazi like factions.

Of course the us, eu and nato are going to blame Russia. They stand to gain most from the new Ukrainian government staying in power and joining the eu.

This was a horrible incident and it's outrageous how it was instantly turned into an anti-russia propaganda story.

Will be interesting to see where this story goes and whether it'll get any coverage with the BBC and sky.

http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/

But its not just this single incident, Putin has been pushing the west since he came to power, he's a highly trained and indoctinated KGB senior officer, he talks and behaves true to type. He will continue to do so until the economic sanctions force internal policy or government change or he decides to go for broke and we do end up facing off across the Ukrainian plains. Their armed forces have some formidible units and equipment, but not enough and not maintained well enough to pose a conventional threat to NATO. The nuclear threat is always there but again, its not what it used to be and by gum the finger on the button was less predictable in the 50s, 60s, 70s and eighties. Lets hope someone does the right and humanitarian thing here, but dont hold your breath.

[Trav Le Bleu]

I found myself wondering what the mood would be in Holland if they had won the World Cup. National elation to national mourning.

 

There was also a couple who switched planes and had been due to fly on MH17. The woman was videoed saying, "I feel someone is watching over us." Hate comments like this. It's effectively saying that 298 people weren't good enough to have someone looking over them. Thoughtless.

[Buce]

It's being reported that there have been attempts to use credit cards looted from the dead passengers.

Beyond sick.

[Grewks]

Love how brainwashed everyone seems to be by western media into blaming russia for all of this.

Is it really that hard to believe that Ukrainian people are unhappy with a government that came into power by overthrowing the last goverment. Partly due to the violence and persistence of right wing, almost neo-nazi like factions.

Of course the us, eu and nato are going to blame Russia. They stand to gain most from the new Ukrainian government staying in power and joining the eu.

This was a horrible incident and it's outrageous how it was instantly turned into an anti-russia propaganda story.

Will be interesting to see where this story goes and whether it'll get any coverage with the BBC and sky.

http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/

 

 

Blaming russia is the obvious thing to do though. They are an isolated nation who always keep themselves to themselves and offer little to no conversation to international media, especially putin. 

I fail to see how the evidence you have posted can be considered any more reliable than the evidence we already have on the subject. How do we know the guy who tweeted this stuff isnt -

 

A) A pro-russian himself

B) A man actually confusing the 'foreign men' he is with to be russian separatists instead of Ukrainian? Afterall, he is spanish and therefore likely to take very little interest.

C) Making the whole story up to get attention.

 

 

 

At the end of the day putin has no right to back the separatists, Ukrainian people are not seeing a breach of their human rights so why should the russians step in? The answer is simple, Putin does not want to see Ukraine join the E.U. Russia do not want to be bordered with nations which no longer seek close relationship with them but instead their rivals in the rest of europe.

 

 

We know the media is biased. There is no difference in the way the U.S have intervened in many other situations within the middle east in the past where they have had no right to do. But that point of view is not mediarised (I made the word up but you should be able to understand what i mean) in this country simply because of our good relationship.

 

 

 

At the end of the day, had russia not began to support the separatists (Posh word for terrorists really isn't it?) the plane would not have been shot down. As the terrorist forces would not have had the weapons to do so, and the Ukrainian army would have had no reason to launch rockets at suspected enemy aircraft. 

[Parafox]

I suppose ideally we'd find the individuals responsible and bring them to justice. But you can't just saunter into another country and start imposing law. Unless the Russians hand them over, it's going to be very hard to find and extract those responsible without embroiling ourselves in a very serious conflict with the resultant loss of many more lives. It isn't worth it just to bring to justice a couple of individuals who made a tragic mistake.

 

Was it a mistake though? I read that there was twitter/phone traffic between two or three known rebles boasting of what thay had done.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/17/malaysian-airlines-mh17-reported-crashed-just-after-rebel-leader-boasted-of-shooting-down-plane-we-warned-them-not-to-fly-in-our-skies/&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=qg7LU7PRKcrB7AbOpoDQBg&ved=0CCEQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNHHG96r4Oc2hO-lo08875b2RpgWfA

[MPH]

Cases can usually be decided by either side producing evidence. I have noticed on not even pro Russia blogs and websites has a single shred of evidence been produced to back their claims that Ukraine are to blame. .

And if people doubt the validity of the phone calls then consider the tweets by the rebels claiming to of shot down a cargo plane quickly deleted after it was discovered to be a passenger plain. I was reading earlier that the timing of the deleted tweets coincide directly with the time the phone calls were recorded.

[MooseBreath]

Was it a mistake though? I read that there was twitter/phone traffic between two or three known rebles boasting of what thay had done.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/17/malaysian-airlines-mh17-reported-crashed-just-after-rebel-leader-boasted-of-shooting-down-plane-we-warned-them-not-to-fly-in-our-skies/&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=qg7LU7PRKcrB7AbOpoDQBg&ved=0CCEQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNHHG96r4Oc2hO-lo08875b2RpgWfA

They shot down a passenger plane thinking it was a military plane. That was the mistake.

You could argue that if you walk through a warzone and someone mistakes you for an enemy and shoots you dead, then it's your own fault. Flying through a warzone, someone mistakes you for the enemy and shoots you dead, whose fault is it?

[Rincewind]

True although if I was walking through a war-zone I would not be holding a sign with 'ENEMY' written on it. More like one with 'FRIEND'

[Merging Cultures]

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28381460

The rebels are not letting the observers in.

As I said earlier it is going to take a military force to secure the area with the idea to prevent Russia removing more evidence.

They, and IOW, will obviously shout that the international observers are planning evidence...

Moose, I agree, it was a terrible mistake. Should they have been flying over a war zone? Probably not, but should the rebels have shot down a plane not being 100% sure what they were shooting down? Killing 300 people 33,000 feet up is a bit different to killing 1 person who is on the ground. They'd at least get a better look at the person they are killing on the ground.

[sphericalfox]

They shot down a passenger plane thinking it was a military plane. That was the mistake.

You could argue that if you walk through a warzone and someone mistakes you for an enemy and shoots you dead, then it's your own fault. Flying through a warzone, someone mistakes you for the enemy and shoots you dead, whose fault is it?

 

The advanced weaponry, used whether or not used by mistake, was given to those to blame, by the Russians. Who are supporting a proxy war with the west. Therefore a considerable amount of blame should rest at the Russians feet, as these individuals who pushed the button, are not trained or capable of obtaining such weaponry otherwise.

 

At 33,000ft the airlines were perhaps a little a fault, but Afganhistan for example (a fairly recognised warzone), the flights that cross it a subjected to 30,000ft restrictions due the the weaponry available to the Taliban, the same applies to a variety of warzones, including Ukraine. it was felt that the Pro-Russian contingent didn't have the capability to shoot a civilian plane flying at 33,000ft. Unfortunately they were wrong. The Russians need to a great deal of blame for this.

[Rincewind]

Do civilian and military planes fly at the same height? Just wondering how they could distinguish the two.

[Merging Cultures]

Do civilian and military planes fly at the same height? Just wondering how they could distinguish the two.

I was wondering about this too. They were worried that the plane was bringing spies? Wouldn't it have either just landed or taken off? Or if dropping with parachutes it would be lower? And what colours are the Ukrainian military planes? Not green?

Or perhaps it was the Ukrainians trying to kill Putin?

Edit: just googled, the antonov planes are white, at least on wikipedia, but they are also prop planes, not jets and the wings are positioned at top of the fuselage not at the bottom.

[Rincewind]

I thought military planes would be small and fast in order to get in and out an area as uick as possible to reduce the chance of it being shot down. Flying a passenger plane you would not expect to be a target.

[Merging Cultures]

I thought military planes would be small and fast in order to get in and out an area as uick as possible to reduce the chance of it being shot down. Flying a passenger plane you would not expect to be a target.

Antonovs, the ones they thought they'd shot down are cargo and transport planes.

[Guesty]

Do civilian and military planes fly at the same height? Just wondering how they could distinguish the two.

 

I think I heard on the news an expert say civilian planes have different transponder signals to military planes. The person using the weapon should be able to distinguish between the two, but it's not easy - and that's why you have to be well-trained.

[AdamN]

The An-26 (the aircraft they claimed they shot down) has a typical cruise speed of 237kts and a top speed of 290kts, whereas the 777-200ER cruises at around 490kts. Even that should have been enough to determine that they weren't engaging the aircraft that they thought they were. 

[Rincewind]

They should have checked in The Penguin Book Of Aircraft

[MooseBreath]

The An-26 (the aircraft they claimed they shot down) has a typical cruise speed of 237kts and a top speed of 290kts, whereas the 777-200ER cruises at around 490kts. Even that should have been enough to determine that they weren't engaging the aircraft that they thought they were.

Not making excuses for the clowns that did it, but surely a smaller plane travelling more slowly at a lower altitude looks much like a bigger place travelling quickly at high altitude? Same size, same place across the sky.

[Finnegan]

Not making excuses for the clowns that did it, but surely a smaller plane travelling more slowly at a lower altitude looks much like a bigger place travelling quickly at high altitude? Same size, same place across the sky.

These cows are small.

[Tielemans63]

Just found out that one of the dead was a kid who lived on letchworth road, just 3 doors down from my folks. Had just started his gap year. ****ing tragic.

*Sorry, think this has already been discussed.