Next Leader of the Opposition

[Webbo]

Fair enough. I see it as a violation of a pretty fundamental law and a way for companies to score cheap labour with the taxpayer picking up a lot of the tab.

I seriously doubt these companies make much out of these unskilled, inexperienced,  people.

Whether Ken does it or not is irrelevant: his point re zero hours contracts still stands. That's what I'm saying.

His point is no more relevant than mine.

[leicsmac]

How much experience do you have of the workforce over the last few years? Virtually every post I see you make is in daytime "working" hours.

Ye Gods, here's another ad hom. Ken could be a fvcking billionaire CEO and that would still be totally irrelevant to the point he's trying to make (apart from being massively hypocritical, of course).

There is a problem right now regarding unemployment and the way it is handled in the UK, and companies are exploiting Workfare to get cheap labour at taxpayer expense. That's a given.

[leicsmac]

I seriously doubt these companies make much out of these unskilled, inexperienced, people.

His point is no more relevant than mine.

Every person they take on Workfare is one they don't have to pay minimum wage to. It all adds up.

[Webbo]

Every person they take on Workfare is one they don't have to pay minimum wage to. It all adds up.

How productive do you think these people are? They don't turn up on day 1 and instantly become employee of the month. There is a degree of training involved, even working in a supermarket. You have to pay people to supervise.

[Rincewind]

I am retired. I do not have to go out to work. I do  volunteer work though.

The government subsidises companies like Amazon and Asda to take on workfare workers.

A single  person on JSA draws £71pw. If he does 30 hours that does not equate to the minimum wage.

Whether it gains them work experience is irrelevant if they only do it for a few weeks then replaced by a another jobseeker.

They are drawing less than the minimum wage set out by law. That is my one main gripe with it. There have been instances where people have lost their jobs then asked to go back as part of Workfare. Tell me this is moral and right in Britain 2015?

[The Doctor]

How productive do you think these people are? They don't turn up on day 1 and instantly become employee of the month. There is a degree of training involved, even working in a supermarket. You have to pay people to supervise.

Which would be a fair argument if it was a local corner shop where the difference between paying nothing and paying minium wage is the difference between staying open and going out of business (although the exploitation of free, forced labour is still evidently wrong, we figured that out centuries ago), but it'd be absolutely ludicrous to suggest that the likes of next and tesco with their turnovers have justification for not paying minium wage and instead exploiting free, forced labour.

[Webbo]

Which would be a fair argument if it was a local corner shop where the difference between paying nothing and paying minium wage is the difference between staying open and going out of business (although the exploitation of free, forced labour is still evidently wrong, we figured that out centuries ago), but it'd be absolutely ludicrous to suggest that the likes of next and tesco with their turnovers have justification for not paying minium wage and instead exploiting free, forced labour.

How long are people on these schemes? This is aimed at the long term unemployed, it's fair to assume that a lot of these people are at best unenthusiastic at worst uncooperative. The company has to pay to train, supervise and there are also costs such as uniform, employer's liability. To pretend to Tesco are making millions out of poor unfortunates who gain nothing from the experience is patently bollox.

[leicsmac]

How long are people on these schemes? This is aimed at the long term unemployed, it's fair to assume that a lot of these people are at best unenthusiastic at worst uncooperative. The company has to pay to train, supervise and there are also costs such as uniform, employer's liability. To pretend to Tesco are making millions out of poor unfortunates who gain nothing from the experience is patently bollox.

They're still gaining more than if they employed them with a proper contract. All of the above would still apply, but it would be the company paying, not the government.

In any case, I thought you'd be all for stopping misspending of taxpayer money, and this certainly fits the bill.

[Rincewind]

The point is still being overlooked. I'll leave you all to discuss. I am needed elsewhere.

[Guest]

How long are people on these schemes? This is aimed at the long term unemployed, it's fair to assume that a lot of these people are at best unenthusiastic at worst uncooperative. The company has to pay to train, supervise and there are also costs such as uniform, employer's liability. To pretend to Tesco are making millions out of poor unfortunates who gain nothing from the experience is patently bollox.

 

Again it's just your assumption. In your words why should anyone believe it.

[Buce]

I see it as volunteering for work experience.

Stacking shelves requires experience?

[Rincewind]

It is also fair to assume that a lot of these people have recently been made redundant and are over qualified to stack shelves. It is fair to assume that many are graduates from uni waiting for the break they need. It is also fair to assume that many have learning or physical disabilities. Overall it is fair to assume that they do not fit in one pigeon hole.

It is also fair to assume that the reason for the schemes is that the government assumes that a majority of the unemployed are skivers and will assume the public will believe them when they say it.

I am one of the skeptical ones.

[Webbo]

They're still gaining more than if they employed them with a proper contract. All of the above would still apply, but it would be the company paying, not the government.

In any case, I thought you'd be all for stopping misspending of taxpayer money, and this certainly fits the bill.

They're getting the same money whether they do workfare or not, at least they're gaining experience this way.

 

Again it's just your assumption. In your words why should anyone believe it.

You don't have to believe anything, we're here to debate.

 

Stacking shelves requires experience?

My wife stacks shelves in Asda, she had to do training, there's health and safety as well, far more than meets the eye.

 

At least half the people my wife works with avoid work like the plague and are certainly not worth what they're paid and they've been there years. The idea that you can just drag someone in off the street and all of a sudden they're earning you millions is frankly laughable.

[Sir Fynwy]

They're getting the same money whether they do workfare or not, at least they're gaining experience this way.

The employer is getting an employee for no charge and the tax payer misses out on employment taxes, NI contributions etc so there is an extra cost to the tax payer whilst depriving someone of a paid job and subsidising the governments chosen businesses, workfare is a shit scheme aimed at reducing unemployment statistics. If a job is worth doing it is only fair to pay a decent rate for the job.

[Webbo]

The employer is getting an employee for no charge and the tax payer misses out on employment taxes, NI contributions etc so there is an extra cost to the tax payer whilst depriving someone of a paid job and subsidising the governments chosen businesses, workfare is a shit scheme aimed at reducing unemployment statistics. If a job is worth doing it is only fair to pay a decent rate for the job.

The employer isn't getting an employee though are they? It's a work experience scheme. If this scheme didn't exist Tesco wouldn't be beating a path to these people's doors desperate to employ them.

[Dr The Singh]

The point is still being overlooked. I'll leave you all to discuss. I am needed elsewhere.

Super Hero activities?????

[Sir Fynwy]

The employer isn't getting an employee though are they? It's a work experience scheme. If this scheme didn't exist Tesco wouldn't be beating a path to these people's doors desperate to employ them.

Do tesco shelves magically fill themselves

[The Doctor]

How long are people on these schemes? This is aimed at the long term unemployed, it's fair to assume that a lot of these people are at best unenthusiastic at worst uncooperative. The company has to pay to train, supervise and there are also costs such as uniform, employer's liability. To pretend to Tesco are making millions out of poor unfortunates who gain nothing from the experience is patently bollox.

Across all their stores in the country they're saving hundreds of thousands by taking this rather than paying a proper wage, so I would say they're making money out of exploiting people - this is a very simple concept: if there's a job needs doing, then there's a vacancy to be filled, so the company should fill it, creating a job and pay a fair wage, not rob the taxpayers blind while the employee still gets a lower than breadline amount

[Webbo]

Do tesco shelves magically fill themselves

No they're filled by some of the people they actually employ. The workfare types will help sometimes but the shelves wouldn't go unfilled if they weren't there.

 

Across all their stores in the country they're saving hundreds of thousands by taking this rather than paying a proper wage, so I would say they're making money out of exploiting people - this is a very simple concept: if there's a job needs doing, then there's a vacancy to be filled, so the company should fill it, creating a job and pay a fair wage, not rob the taxpayers blind while the employee still gets a lower than breadline amount

Did you do work experience when you were at school? Were you an indispensable employee while you were there?

[Claridge]

No they're filled by some of the people they actually employ. The workfare types will help sometimes but the shelves wouldn't go unfilled if they weren't there.

 

Did you do work experience when you were at school? Were you an indispensable employee while you were there?

Along with a lot of friends I was on the YTS scheme in the 80s

 Fantastic scheme for getting people into work and we

 had the same stupid whinging from unions etc... then

£ 25 a week because we were worth  fvvk all else, but we developed a work ethic and gradually developed the skills to become valued employees.

[ousefox]

Anybody who does any real research into the IDS' workfare scheme since 2011 will find it has performed no better than any previous scheme and has, unsurprisingly, had many benefits for big business.

 

I'm not quite sure how anyone could suggest work placements of up to 8 weeks at Tesco won't benefit the company a hell of a lot more than the workers; who very rarely see job outcomes. I doubt it'd take more than week at the absolute most to learn the ropes at a supermarket, especially if you're only on the shelves rather than tills.

 

That isn't even taking into account the problems with the public-private partnerships. These companies are, as expected, tending to put their resources into targeting the 'easier-to-help' candidates who are much more profitable.

[pSinatra]

I like the sound of this Workfare.  Where do I sign up?

 

Not as someone looking for work experience, but as a prospective employer looking to take advantage of such a scheme.

 

For 2 weeks I could teach the right person all they need to know about gardening.........how to shovel, how to rake up, how to dig.......all the shitty jobs I don't fancy doing myself.  And it's not going to cost me anything?  Yes please!

 

Or is it only available to multi-nationals?

[Wymsey]

I like the sound of this Workfare.  Where do I sign up?

 

Not as someone looking for work experience, but as a prospective employer looking to take advantage of such a scheme.

 

For 2 weeks I could teach the right person all they need to know about gardening.........how to shovel, how to rake up, how to dig.......all the shitty jobs I don't fancy doing myself.  And it's not going to cost me anything?  Yes please!

 

Or is it only available to multi-nationals?

The Workfare scheme sounds moreorless like an apprenticeship, personally.

[Strokes]

I am retired. I do not have to go out to work. I do  volunteer work though.

The government subsidises companies like Amazon and Asda to take on workfare workers.

A single  person on JSA draws £71pw. If he does 30 hours that does not equate to the minimum wage.

Whether it gains them work experience is irrelevant if they only do it for a few weeks then replaced by a another jobseeker.

They are drawing less than the minimum wage set out by law. That is my one main gripe with it. There have been instances where people have lost their jobs then asked to go back as part of Workfare. Tell me this is moral and right in Britain 2015?

What about housing benefit, how much of that might they be drawing, or other kind of benefits?

[Webbo]

Anybody who does any real research into the IDS' workfare scheme since 2011 will find it has performed no better than any previous scheme and has, unsurprisingly, had many benefits for big business.

 

I'm not quite sure how anyone could suggest work placements of up to 8 weeks at Tesco won't benefit the company a hell of a lot more than the workers; who very rarely see job outcomes. I doubt it'd take more than week at the absolute most to learn the ropes at a supermarket, especially if you're only on the shelves rather than tills.

 

That isn't even taking into account the problems with the public-private partnerships. These companies are, as expected, tending to put their resources into targeting the 'easier-to-help' candidates who are much more profitable.

Is it any worse than previous schemes? It's usually 4 weeks at 30 hours a week of which there will be some training involved. If all the businesses involved were making mega bucks out of this deal why aren't all businesses doing it?