Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Any chance you could give me a list of things we've agreed to that come to £40bill? If it seems a realistic price to you I'm curious to see what it pays for. Not come across it myself yet. 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/financial-settlement-essential-principles-draft-position-paper_en.pdf

 

Nobody has an exact price yet. The eu position suggests a bill anywhere between £35b and £75b. The link above sets out their opening methodology for calculating  the cost. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

It seems to me that part of the reason for this transition period is is that our contributions while staying in will cover this divorce bill.

I think the overriding reason is simply that trade deals take on average 4 years for the eu to agree and we don't have long enough before the 2 years notice period is up.

[Nick]

You say it how it is Vince...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40842017

[Sharpe's Fox]

Vince Cable: Young 'shafted' over Brexit

 

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[davieG]

3 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

You say it how it is Vince...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40842017

Student Tuition Fees!

[Guest MattP]

Maybe take some of your own advice for the current situation Jeremy?

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Maybe take some of your own advice for the current situation Jeremy?

 

 

 

[Captain...]

Yes, yes we all know they both have ties to questionable regimes, lets not start that again...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40855526

 

Looks like we can add judges to those that don't have a clue what Brexit means for them.

[Guest MattP]

55 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

Can you give me a single Tory who has called the Saudi regime one we should aspire to be like or replicate?

 

Can you give me one quote where a single Tory has said they are showing us a better way of doing things?

Edited 8 August 2017 by MattP

[Guest MattP]

14 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Yes, yes we all know they both have ties to questionable regimes, lets not start that again...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40855526

 

Looks like we can add judges to those that don't have a clue what Brexit means for them.

Surely that's a job for parliament after the Great Repeal Bill has been enacted?

[Captain...]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

Surely that's a job for parliament after the Great Repeal Bill has been enacted?

Surely it needs to be part of the GRB, the comments coming out of Westminster have the usual clarity:

 

Quote

“The UK recognises that beyond a certain point in proceedings, where considerable time and resources have been invested in ECJ proceedings, it may well be right that such cases continue to an ECJ decision,” it concluded. At what point and whether it is “right” were not specified. Similarly, the paper suggested that “historic [ECJ] case law will be given the same binding, or precedent, status in UK courts as decisions of the UK supreme court, which can, where appropriate, depart from its previous judgments”

 

Judges will be presiding over cases now that may not conclude until after the GRB, including cases at the ECJ they should have clear guidelines on what Brexit and leaving the ECJ jurisdiction means to the cases they are overseeing.

 

Interesting to see that the ECJ historic cases will still be binding after we leave the EU.

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, MattP said:

Can you give me a single Tory who has called the Saudi regime one we should aspire to be like or replicate?

 

Can you give me one quote where a single Tory has said they are showing us a better way of doing things?

You don't have to say you approve of a regime to show that you support them and by extension the way they do things. A decent amount of trade speaks quite clearly also in that regard.

 

But yeah, it's not like either side has clean hands on this one, as has been discussed before.

[Jon the Hat]

26 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

You don't have to say you approve of a regime to show that you support them and by extension the way they do things. A decent amount of trade speaks quite clearly also in that regard.

 

But yeah, it's not like either side has clean hands on this one, as has been discussed before.

You can see there is a difference between aspiring to the clearly failed socialist model of Venezuela in the face of all the evidence, and proposing it as s model of government for our country, and trading and trying to influence an "ally" with very questionable government to try to move them in the right direction?

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You can see there is a difference between aspiring to the clearly failed socialist model of Venezuela in the face of all the evidence, and proposing it as s model of government for our country, and trading and trying to influence an "ally" with very questionable government to try to move them in the right direction?

Nope. AFAIC it's propping up nasty authoritarianism both ways, either through verbal or material support - and we could make an oil deal with Venezuela and attempt to "influence" them in the same way, if we so chose...they've certainly got enough of it.

 

If and when Saudi actually start moving in the "right direction" and it can be proven that it's down to our influence...then maybe an argument could be made that approach is effective. But right now, there's double standards everywhere you look.

 

I don't deny we need what the Saudi's bring to the table, but don't expect me to view people decrying the verbal support for Venezuela and then being at least content to let the Saudi deals go on as anything other than hypocrites.

Edited 8 August 2017 by leicsmac

[Guest MattP]

Really Mac? You genuinely don't see any difference at all between the two?

 

For me it's absolutely astronomical, not even in the same league, let alone same ballpark.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, MattP said:

Really Mac? You genuinely don't see any difference at all between the two?

 

For me it's absolutely astronomical, not even in the same league, let alone same ballpark.

Honestly, I don't Matt.

 

The current government supports the Saudis through trade because we need what they bring to the table. That's material support, regardless of what we think of their regime and right now I'm not seeing our influence changing any of it - like I said, if it looked like we were talking them round and getting them to make steps away from repressive authoritarianism then perhaps things might be different.

 

Corbyn and company support the Venezuelan government through saying that they're an ideal form of government (which is pretty damn horrific IMO). That's verbal support, but not material (unless stuff is going on underneath the table that we're not hearing about).

 

Either way, a brutally repressive government is getting support from a bigger world player and as such is being given the green light to keep doing what they're doing. And that is a pattern that has repeated through history regardless of ideology, whether it's the US keeping the banana republics going or the Soviets propping up the Norks for goodness knows how long.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You can see there is a difference between aspiring to the clearly failed socialist model of Venezuela in the face of all the evidence, and proposing it as s model of government for our country, and trading and trying to influence an "ally" with very questionable government to try to move them in the right direction?

You could say exactly the same about the uk being pretty much the only country that has continued with austerity politics in the face of all the evidence of damage caused by cuts. 

[Strokes]

22 minutes ago, toddybad said:

You could say exactly the same about the uk being pretty much the only country that has continued with austerity politics in the face of all the evidence of damage caused by cuts. 

Yeah it's been a disastrous 7 years of austerity, we are all homeless and jobless.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah it's been a disastrous 7 years of austerity, we are all homeless and jobless.

You'd literally have to not watch the news not to have found examples of austerity causing problems. 

Edited 8 August 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/07/climate/climate-change-drastic-warming-trump.html?referer=

 

[Charl91]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Really Mac? You genuinely don't see any difference at all between the two?

 

For me it's absolutely astronomical, not even in the same league, let alone same ballpark.

You're right about one thing, the difference is astronomical. 'Cus one is just words, while the other is actually financing and aiding such regimes.

 

But like others have said, you can find mud to sling at both sides in regards to this. I'm sure Tory supporters will adamantly argue that  "x is worse", whereas Labour supporters will say "it's not as bad as 'y'", and both sides will believe it with such conviction that the discussion is going to go nowhere.

 

....Actually, I suppose that sums up politics in general.

[David Guiza]

The #CorbynMustCondemn trend on Twitter is great. I love how left leaning Twitter is; particularly compared with the deep dark right caves of Facebook. 

[Webbo]

42 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

You're right about one thing, the difference is astronomical. 'Cus one is just words, while the other is actually financing and aiding such regimes.

 

But like others have said, you can find mud to sling at both sides in regards to this. I'm sure Tory supporters will adamantly argue that  "x is worse", whereas Labour supporters will say "it's not as bad as 'y'", and both sides will believe it with such conviction that the discussion is going to go nowhere.

 

....Actually, I suppose that sums up politics in general.

We're financing Saudi Arabia?

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

The #CorbynMustCondemn trend on Twitter is great. I love how left leaning Twitter is; particularly compared with the deep dark right caves of Facebook. 

That is exactly it. Twitter is younger and more left leaning. More older adults use Facebook and the memes on there are hugely right wing from what I've seen. The right wing memes are often entirely made up i would add - think about some of the britain first bullshit you see going round. 

 

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

We're financing Saudi Arabia?

We don't finance them, we just support them despite them financing extremism in the west. We also sell them the weapons they use to commit alleged war crimes - to the point our own courts had to judge whether this was even legal let alone ethical. 

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

That is exactly it. Twitter is younger and more left leaning. More older adults use Facebook and the memes on there are hugely right wing from what I've seen. The right wing memes are often entirely made up i would add - think about some of the britain first bullshit you see going round. 

 

We don't finance them, we just support them despite them financing extremism in the west. We also sell them the weapons they use to commit alleged war crimes - to the point our own courts had to judge whether this was even legal let alone ethical. 

How do you mean "support"?