Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

She's always been known for going against the grain.

I guess you reap what you sow.

 

So we know where a young Theresa found her wheat, but do we know where she got her oats?

We can at least be sure it wasn't anything to do with PIE.

[Buce]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

She's always been known for going against the grain.

I guess you reap what you sow.

 

So we know where a young Theresa found her wheat, but do we know where she got her oats?

 

A bit corny, Alf. 

 

I'm a-maized by your nerve. 

[theessexfox]

@MattP Have you read any Roger Scruton? I'm reading the first chapter of his 'A Political Philosophy - Arguments for Conservatism' - I think you'd like his section on 'Oikophobes', those who view their nation state with disdain and seek to criticise it and support its enemies. It was written in 2006 but provides quite an eloquent Eurosceptic view, reckon I could guess how he voted in the referendum.

[Guest Kopfkino]

35 minutes ago, theessexfox said:

@MattP Have you read any Roger Scruton? I'm reading the first chapter of his 'A Political Philosophy - Arguments for Conservatism' - I think you'd like his section on 'Oikophobes', those who view their nation state with disdain and seek to criticise it and support its enemies. It was written in 2006 but provides quite an eloquent Eurosceptic view, reckon I could guess how he voted in the referendum.

 

Matt could legitimately be Scruton.

I always found Scruton's arguments on the difference between being governed by national parliament and governed by treaty as particularly pertinent

[Webbo]

 

[foxinexile]

40 minutes ago, Webbo said:

 

She's very pro-Brexit so hardly a surprise or revelation to hear her state her (already known) opinion about this.

[Lionator]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

 

Not a fan of this at all but I suppose it's what the leavers wanted so us silly remoaners will have to deal with it. For me there's two major interests, will nurses be classed as high skilled workers as the NHS will desperately need nurses from the EU in the upcoming years and secondly, will this stop Brits from being able to retire abroad in EU countries?

[Sharpe's Fox]

Hey Conservatives! Want to attract young voters? Just ask Tim Montgomery:

 

 

Build a communism museum!

Edited 5 September 2017 by Sharpe's Fox

[bovril]

13 minutes ago, Lionator said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

 

Not a fan of this at all but I suppose it's what the leavers wanted so us silly remoaners will have to deal with it. For me there's two major interests, will nurses be classed as high skilled workers as the NHS will desperately need nurses from the EU in the upcoming years and secondly, will this stop Brits from being able to retire abroad in EU countries?

Not all Brits abroad are retired / want to retire. Many of us work / have businesses etc.

[Guest MattP]

5 hours ago, theessexfox said:

@MattP Have you read any Roger Scruton? I'm reading the first chapter of his 'A Political Philosophy - Arguments for Conservatism' - I think you'd like his section on 'Oikophobes', those who view their nation state with disdain and seek to criticise it and support its enemies. It was written in 2006 but provides quite an eloquent Eurosceptic view, reckon I could guess how he voted in the referendum.

I read one of his books from a couple of years ago but I'm not sure if this is the same one, it was called how to be a Conservative or something along those lines, in fact it can't be as that was only released a couple of years ago. He still does a bit of writing every now and then in the Times/ST and it's always worth a read.

 

I'll certainly give this one a look, love the term "Oikophobe"

 

5 hours ago, KingGTF said:

 

Matt could legitimately be Scruton.

I always found Scruton's arguments on the difference between being governed by national parliament and governed by treaty as particularly pertinent

You are too kind.

[IrememberBobHazell]

The Guardian piece about immigration this morning caused a bit of a stir, then you read its the fifth unapproved draft of a maybe white paper. 

 Mind you I always said you shouldn't buy the Guardian if there is proper toilet paper available.

[David Guiza]

Are you only allowed to run for Tory leadership if you hold 50s values now?

 

Piers Morgan: “So you oppose same-sex marriage?”

Jacob Rees-Mogg: “I… I…”

Piers: “Why are you afraid to say you oppose it?”

Rees-Mogg: “The teaching of the Catholic church is completely clear.”

Susanna Reid: “You voted against it?”

Rees-Mogg: “I did. The marriage issue is the important thing…”

Susanna: “Are you completely opposed to abortion in all circumstances?”

Rees-Mogg: “Yes I am.”

Piers: “Rape and incest?”

Rees-Mogg: “I’m afraid so.”

Piers: “Really?”

Rees-Mogg: “Life is sacrosanct and begins at the point of conception.”

[Sharpe's Fox]

8 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Are you only allowed to run for Tory leadership if you hold 50s values now?

 

Piers Morgan: “So you oppose same-sex marriage?”

Jacob Rees-Mogg: “I… I…”

Piers: “Why are you afraid to say you oppose it?”

Rees-Mogg: “The teaching of the Catholic church is completely clear.”

Susanna Reid: “You voted against it?”

Rees-Mogg: “I did. The marriage issue is the important thing…”

Susanna: “Are you completely opposed to abortion in all circumstances?”

Rees-Mogg: “Yes I am.”

Piers: “Rape and incest?”

Rees-Mogg: “I’m afraid so.”

Piers: “Really?”

Rees-Mogg: “Life is sacrosanct and begins at the point of conception.”

If Sadiq Khan had said that in the event of a family member raping and subsequently impregnating a woman that that womans wish to abort the unborn fetus would be "morally indefensible" then he would be rightly be pressured to resign. Christians like to pretend that they are some sort of persecuted minority when in fact their faith gives them a shield on which they can deflect opposition to repugnant views to an equally repugnant institution whose entire existence is based on the accumulation of wealth and power.

[David Guiza]

Just now, Sharpe's Fox said:

If Sadiq Khan had said that in the event of a family member raping and subsequently impregnating a woman that that womans wish to abort the unborn fetus would be "morally indefensible" then he would be rightly be pressured to resign. Christians like to pretend that they are some sort of persecuted minority when in fact their faith gives them a shield on which they can deflect opposition to repugnant views to an equally repugnant institution whose entire existence is based on the accumulation of wealth and power.

Completely agree, some archaic Christian values are just ignored because we are a historically Christian nation. I assume he is equally as forceful that people should not wear two different types of wool seeing as that is so important in the bible.

The "I'm afraid so" highlights that he's aware that his views are repugnant and outdated, yet is happy enough to parade them on national television. How any single person can believe that a woman should be forced to raise a child born out of rape is beyond me. Baffling that he will undoubtedly receive a huge amount of support in his leadership bid. 

 

[Guest MattP]

30 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

If Sadiq Khan had said that in the event of a family member raping and subsequently impregnating a woman that that womans wish to abort the unborn fetus would be "morally indefensible" then he would be rightly be pressured to resign. Christians like to pretend that they are some sort of persecuted minority when in fact their faith gives them a shield on which they can deflect opposition to repugnant views to an equally repugnant institution whose entire existence is based on the accumulation of wealth and power.

Sadiq Khan would never be asked the question, these questions are only saved for people of a certain faith.

 

We've got Muslim MP's who don't even get asked to resign when they share social media posts asking for the mass deportation of Jews.

 

20 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

How any single person can believe that a woman should be forced to raise a child born out of rape is beyond me. Baffling that he will undoubtedly receive a huge amount of support in his leadership bid.

Scary isn't it, even if you find abortion a bit uncomfortable like I do the idea you would force someone to go through childbirth after that is warped. 

 

That pretty much ends his bid for leadership anyway, he'd be hounded in the same way Farron was, anyone who holds deeply traditional Christian religious beliefs is pretty much now an impossible choice for any sort of public role. I'm sure the Tories know this now.

 

A genuine man of principle though, to say that on air shows he believes it, very few of them left in politics even if you disagree with him.

 

(If I was on the left I'd be pointing out how bizarre it is he won't accept the judgement of the European courts but is prepared to take the judgement of unelected cardinals in the Vatican)

[David Guiza]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

That pretty much ends his bid for leadership anyway, he'd be hounded in the same way Farron was, anyone who holds deeply traditional Christian religious beliefs is pretty much now an impossible choice for any sort of public role. I'm sure the Tories know this now.

 

A genuine man of principle though, to say that on air shows he believes it, very few of them left in politics even if you disagree with him.

 

(If I was on the left I'd be pointing out how bizarre it is he won't accept the judgement of the European courts but is prepared to take the judgement of unelected cardinals in the Vatican)

Absolutely, interesting however that his views are now perhaps more backward than the fairly modern thinking Pope (for a Pope!). I just can't comprehend that level of dedication to a set of beliefs, regardless of the religion. The ambivalence and blind faith of what are quite clearly morally redundant passages is ridiculous; as you say though, you can't say he didn't stick to his guns.

 

It's practically impossible to harmoniously match any kind of strong religious beliefs and political standing now; and I think that is absolutely correct. Morality and beliefs change so frequently that it's just not going to work out. 

[Stadt]

Say a cult was formed that adopted thousand year old views and practices it'd be rightly criticised and laughed off but in modern day society we're still plagued by people heavily influenced by religion. Ultra orthodox religious people can **** off whether they be Christian, Muslim, Sikh Hindu or whatever.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

If Sadiq Khan had said that in the event of a family member raping and subsequently impregnating a woman that that womans wish to abort the unborn fetus would be "morally indefensible" then he would be rightly be pressured to resign. Christians like to pretend that they are some sort of persecuted minority when in fact their faith gives them a shield on which they can deflect opposition to repugnant views to an equally repugnant institution whose entire existence is based on the accumulation of wealth and power.

There is no place for religion in politics imho

[Guest MattP]

35 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Absolutely, interesting however that his views are now perhaps more backward than the fairly modern thinking Pope (for a Pope!). I just can't comprehend that level of dedication to a set of beliefs, regardless of the religion. The ambivalence and blind faith of what are quite clearly morally redundant passages is ridiculous; as you say though, you can't say he didn't stick to his guns.

 

It's practically impossible to harmoniously match any kind of strong religious beliefs and political standing now; and I think that is absolutely correct. Morality and beliefs change so frequently that it's just not going to work out. 

I don't get it either but I do admire the dedication and belief some of these people have, I wish I could have it myself but it's top far fetched for me.

 

Some of the stuff has made me chuckle though, people surprised a man is a devout catholic who has named his children Sixtus Pius etc

 

I think the days of being Christian and in public life or policy being decided on a Christian basis have now gone - whether that's a good thing none of us will probably know in our lifetime but I hope it works out better than the last time the continent turned it's back on faith. You would hope we are educated enough to make it work.

 

Although looking at immigration data and demographics it's probably only going to be short venture anyway as Islam will probably be the dominant religion of Western Europe in 100 years.

Edited 6 September 2017 by MattP

[Guest MattP]

Anne Marie Waters now considered favourite to beat Peter Whittle.

 

Going to be amusing to see where UKIP go with an Irish lesbian as leader.

[Alf Bentley]

While I completely disagree with Rees-Mogg's views on abortion, same-sex marriage and most other issues, I think it's worth listening to what he said:

 

https://news.google.com/news/video/WE6WC_BVZ4Q/dTkXRQbCSOPAX5MSZ8PsGPd5fHAgM?hl=en-GB&ned=uk

 

An early comment sounded outrageous, as if he was suggesting that the Catholic Church should be a higher democratic power than parliament (never mind "Henry VIII powers" over Brexit, that would be a return to pre-Henry VIII politics! ).

 

However, it rapidly becomes clear that he is expressing his personal opinions, not suggesting that Parliament should revoke same-sex marriage or ban all abortion.

He goes on to say that there's no question of parliament legislating to ban same-sex marriage or abortion (under the implied hypothesis that he was PM) as there isn't the parliamentary support for it.

 

A good question to have asked him, though, would have been: "What if there WAS parliamentary support for such legislation and you were PM - then would you legislate to ban gay marriage or abortion?"

His answer would have told us whether his politics is dominated by the conservative thinking of the Catholic Church or the thinking of right-wing liberalism. He voted against gay marriage in register offices. Would he remove that right if he could?

 

Although I disagree, as an atheist I have no problem with the Catholic Church or Islam banning gay marriage in their churches or mosques, or opposing abortion.

Devout Catholics or Muslims who are gay or support reasonable abortion rights can argue the case within their religious institutions, can join other more tolerant denominations or can establish their own churches.

I would have a massive problem with Catholics or Muslims seeking to impose their beliefs on the nation through state legislation.

Whether gay marriage is allowed in a church/mosque is a religious issue. Whether gay marriage is allowed in register offices is an issue of democracy and human rights, where religion should not set the rules.

 

In passing, Rees-Mogg's initial comments about the rights of EU citizens resident in the UK are actually quite liberal.

[Lionator]

11 hours ago, MattP said:

Anne Marie Waters now considered favourite to beat Peter Whittle.

 

Going to be amusing to see where UKIP go with an Irish lesbian as leader.

She's very far to the right and wants to get Tommy Robinson involved in the party, there'll either be a UKIP nationalist uprising or she'll completely finish their party.

[Captain...]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

However, it rapidly becomes clear that he is expressing his personal opinions, not suggesting that Parliament should revoke same-sex marriage or ban all abortion.

I understand what you are saying, and it is possible to hold contradictory personal and political beliefs, but his voting record shows that his personal belief influenced his political decision making, voting against his party on gay marriage.

 

This won't automatically stop him from being a Tory leader but it will become a central issue in any campaign, like it did for Farron and his views on homosexuals, and will lose him more votes then it will win him.

 

It is refreshing having a politician being open and honest about personal views, just a shame they are so backward.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Captain... said:

I understand what you are saying, and it is possible to hold contradictory personal and political beliefs, but his voting record shows that his personal belief influenced his political decision making, voting against his party on gay marriage.

 

This won't automatically stop him from being a Tory leader but it will become a central issue in any campaign, like it did for Farron and his views on homosexuals, and will lose him more votes then it will win him.

 

It is refreshing having a politician being open and honest about personal views, just a shame they are so backward.

They'd have to be backward views to become the current (until yesterday) pin up boy of the right of the tory party.

[Finnegan]

As expected, though, JRM is now taking a royal butt****ing all over social media.