Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Alf Bentley]

17 minutes ago, MattP said:

did you watch the documentary on Monday night following the Labour MP's during the campaign? Very good TV (BBC2 9PM, can't remember what it was called), the momentum lot hate the Labour MP's like him and Kinnock more than they hate the Tories. 

 

I knew there was something I'd meant to watch the other night! Will have to try to catch that via I-Player.

 

I find Stephen Kinnock pretty objectionable myself and I'm a Labour-supporting non-Momentum type.

Don't know how he came across in the broadcast, but to me he's previously come across as both massively arrogant and horribly cynical 

 

Quote

Corbyn did better than we thought but he still lost, the problems of division were actually caused by him and his supporters, I do agree with Roger when he says he was lucky to come up against that Tory campaign.

 

 Completely agree that Corbyn was very lucky to face such an abject Tory campaign.

 

I also agree that his lot were mainly responsible for the divisions - as much through the lack of any meaningful policy drive in their first year as through their vicious targeting of "Blairites" (i.e. non-Corbyn-worshippers) and unwillingness to compromise.

But uncritical Corbyn supporters don't see it that way. They believe that the Left had its mandate, so it did not need to compromise and was justified in targeting "Blairites"....so they see it as a great recovery by Corbyn after all the problems caused for him by the Blairites, the biased media etc....

Edited 22 November 2017 by Alf Bentley

[Guest MattP]

11 minutes ago, toddybad said:

As Kopf says, a lot rides on the tories being able to argue economic competence. All their eggs are in one basket as they've pushed public services to breaking point. The chances of a credit crunch get higher every time they refuse to put money into the economy.

 

You also have to remember that labour win every age group up to 48. Every year that passes with student loans as they are sees another batch of labour voters arrive. 

Well it was Labour who introduced tuition fees so the message needs to be better from the Conservatives on that! , it's very simplistic to suggest that these will all become Labour voters, people change as they get older, the key thing for me is housing, look at people who own homes and they overwhelmingly vote Tory, it makes pollitical sense to sort that out.

 

Labour have always won the younger vote, that was the same in the 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's - a word of warning though for your side, if your core vote isn't based on belief and principles and instead can be "bought" then you run of risk of losing them at any point.

 

10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

I knew there was something I'd meant to watch the other night! Will have to try to catch that via I-Player.

 

I find Stephen Kinnock pretty objectionable myself and I'm a Labour-supporting non-Momentum type.

Don't know how he came across in the broadcast, but to me he's previously come across as both massively arrogant and horribly cynical 

 

 Completely agree that Corbyn was very lucky to face such an abject Tory campaign.

 

I also agree that his lot were mainly responsible for the divisions - as much through the lack of any meaningful policy drive in their first year as through their vicious targeting of "Blairites" (i.e. non-Corbyn-worshippers) and unwillingness to compromise.

But uncritical Corbyn supporters don't see it that way. They believe that the Left had its mandate, so it did not need to compromise and was justified in targeting "Blairites"....so they see it as a great recovery by Corbyn after all the problems caused for him by the Blairites, the biased media etc....

He's a strange man to read Kinnock, his reaction to the exit poll is priceless (go to 00.29, ignore the nonsense the youtube uploaded has added in).

 

 

He took a lot of abuse for this on Social Media but to be fair to him he said loud and clear before it he's not interested in losing elections, this was an election thay should win and he won't be celebraing a 50 seat defeat, you can see it's effected him though.

 

Fair point on his lot, but I find it impossible to believe it wasn't him, McDonnell, Milne etc pushing his lot to do that to any dissenters, it was brutal but it's worked for them, they've got the control they wanted from the start.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

Corbyn is simply awful at PMQ’s.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, MattP said:

Well it was Labour who introduced tuition fees so the message needs to be better from the Conservatives on that! , it's very simplistic to suggest that these will all become Labour voters, people change as they get older, the key thing for me is housing, look at people who own homes and they overwhelmingly vote Tory, it makes pollitical sense to sort that out.

 

Labour have always won the younger vote, that was the same in the 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's - a word of warning though for your side, if your core vote isn't based on belief and principles and instead can be "bought" then you run of risk of losing them at any point.

 

He's a strange man to read Kinnock, his reaction to the exit poll is priceless (go to 00.29, ignore the nonsense the youtube uploaded has added in).

 

 

He took a lot of abuse for this on Social Media but to be fair to him he said loud and clear before it he's not interested in losing elections, this was an election thay should win and he won't be celebraing a 50 seat defeat, you can see it's effected him though.

 

Fair point on his lot, but I find it impossible to believe it wasn't him, McDonnell, Milne etc pushing his lot to do that to any dissenters, it was brutal but it's worked for them, they've got the control they wanted from the start.

This aspect of right wing rhetoric is really annoying.

In terms of being bought, there is no difference between a student voting for low or no tuition fees and a self employed guy voting for low corporation tax.

People vote labour because they believe in a fairer society with good public services. 

 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

This aspect of right wing rhetoric is really annoying.

In terms of being bought, there is no difference between a student voting for low or no tuition fees and a self employed guy voting for low corporation tax.

People vote labour because they believe in a fairer society with good public services. 

 

Sure they do.

[Guest MattP]

9 minutes ago, toddybad said:

This aspect of right wing rhetoric is really annoying.

In terms of being bought, there is no difference between a student voting for low or no tuition fees and a self employed guy voting for low corporation tax.

People vote labour because they believe in a fairer society with good public services. 

Yeah I'm sure it's all about the fairness and good public services when they are cheering the "free" tuition and public sector pay rises.

 

That's why they never mention it. You must think people were born yesterday.

 

That's a worse effort than when a teacher told me he was striking for everyone's pension in 2010 despite having sat on his arse while ours were ravaged the year before. 

[Guest MattP]

22 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

Corbyn is simply awful at PMQ’s.

At least we know the answer to the question of why he doesn't go on Brexit questions. 

 

Hopeless. 

[Rogstanley]

£3bn to plan for no-deal?

 

Three billion pounds, to produce a plan. What world is this?

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Rogstanley said:

£3bn to plan for no-deal?

 

Three billion pounds, to produce a plan. What world is this?

One where the EU reads they are planning for a No Deal and they are serious hopefully. 

[Strokes]

17 minutes ago, MattP said:

One where the EU reads they are planning for a No Deal and they are serious hopefully. 

Hopefully we are serious.

[Rogstanley]

Electric cars with zero bik vs tax on diesels going up, maybe electric cars will finally have their day.

[Guest MattP]

Minimum wage to £7.83 ph from April. 

[Strokes]

Just now, Rogstanley said:

Electric cars with zero bik vs tax on diesels going up, maybe electric cars will finally have their day.

I can’t see them catching on as a replacement, for some they will work but whilst you can’t just refuel and go in a few minutes, their limitations will see them struggle imo.

[Wymsey]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

Minimum wage to £7.83 ph from April. 

Don't really see the point in these continuous wage increases, considering that costs will eventually go up elsewhere to make it a worthless decision?

Edited 22 November 2017 by Wymeswold fox

[Innovindil]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I can’t see them catching on as a replacement, for some they will work but whilst you can’t just refuel and go in a few minutes, their limitations will see them struggle imo.

Good for people that don't drive long distances. Pretty sucky for everyone else. Need to start building them around removable batteries so you can just swap them out at a station. Would be a royal pain in the ass to get it all set up mind. 

[Rogstanley]

Just now, Strokes said:

I can’t see them catching on as a replacement, for some they will work but whilst you can’t just refuel and go in a few minutes, their limitations will see them struggle imo.

Haven't seen the detail but I think it said they're tax free if charged at work. So from my perspective for example, I could save a couple of hundred pounds per month in bik tax so long as my employer provided plenty of charging ports. For company car drivers that's quite appealing, almost like being paid to drive electric. 

[SMX11]

1 minute ago, Wymeswold fox said:

Don't really see the point in these continuous wage increases, when the cost will eventually go up elsewhere to make it a worthless decision?

I don't see the point of a minimum wage set by the government

[filthyfox]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

What about young people with mental health issues, down syndrome etc, should they be allowed to vote?

If they are able to tell a truth fom a lie, and at least know what yeat it is; then yes, of course. Verbal reasoning tests are a very simple way to work out someone's intelligence; they give a statement , and then ask a simple question. Ie- if I pay 13.1 billion euros per year and I get a refund of 4.8 billion euros per year; will I have 50 million per day extra money.... obviously a calculator will also be required for this one; but you get the picture.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Rogstanley said:

Haven't seen the detail but I think it said they're tax free if charged at work. So from my perspective for example, I could save a couple of hundred pounds per month in bik tax so long as my employer provided plenty of charging ports. For company car drivers that's quite appealing, almost like being paid to drive electric. 

Yeah like I say, it will work for some but I can’t see a tradesman rocking up in an electric ford transit and plugging his car into the 110v transformer. It’s got a long way to go before it can replace petrol/diesel entirely.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, filthyfox said:

If they are able to tell a truth fom a lie, and at least know what yeat it is; then yes, of course. Verbal reasoning tests are a very simple way to work out someone's intelligence; they give a statement , and then ask a simple question. Ie- if I pay 13.1 billion euros per year and I get a refund of 4.8 billion euros per year; will I have 50 million per day extra money.... obviously a calculator will also be required for this one; but you get the picture.

Imagine if a Tory proposed an iq test for voters

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

16 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Electric cars with zero bik vs tax on diesels going up, maybe electric cars will finally have their day.

Also have to question how environmental sound electric cars are. The carbon costs and energy used creating the batteries and then disposal of the batteries, plus generation of the power to run the cars. I have to wonder.

 

I would absolutely love to be proved wrong on electric cars but I am still sceptical. The range improvements of late at least hold some hope.

Edited 22 November 2017 by Foxin_mad

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

12 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I can’t see them catching on as a replacement, for some they will work but whilst you can’t just refuel and go in a few minutes, their limitations will see them struggle imo.

It wont happen overnight.  But in the long run electric cars will of course be the only thing we use. 

[filthyfox]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Imagine if a Tory proposed an iq test for voters

 

But here's the thig- a lot of people think that when they vote in local council elections that they will affect the MP. There should be some kind of entry requirement.... It wouldNT surprise me if some voters even knew who the leaders of the main parties were!

[David Guiza]

Didn't see the Stamp Duty cut for first time buyers coming. Undoubtedly a great idea but undoubtedly a huge hit for the government financially also http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-42026814 

[Guest MattP]

Anyone just see Corbyn go completely mental?