Mike Oxlong Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 3 minutes ago, MattP said: No I got the ironing board, my memory of it is very hazy though (which I'm thankful for) and the only thing I'm certain of is it put me off ironing for life. Hasn't this already happened though when we had the absurd spectacle of "female" Renee Richards getting to the US Open third round at the age of 47 in the 1970's? Had she had the full op before then? Either way it was absolutely ridiculous, I'm sure in later life she even said she looked back and realised how unfair it was. We can be quite certain that she didn't want "new balls please"
Captain... Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 10 minutes ago, Finnegan said: Ugghhhhh. I knew this or the public toilet point would come up eventually. Sports are categorised by sex, not gender. It doesn't matter if Carly Lloyd or Wayne Rooney suddenly start identifying as gender fluid, genderless or transgender they're provably female and male respectively by their biological make up and they're not swapping teams any time soon. Nor is anyone proposing that. With the exception of Large Al's mutant curveballs, the vast majority of the planet can be confirmed as being male or female by fact of DNA and nobody with any sense is disputing that we stop categorising sport those ways. Caster Semenya isn't transsexual, she is - as I understand it - a girl with an unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective) high testosterone count. That's all. Sexual reassignment is essentially, to all intents and purposes, a body mod. A balding man gets a hair transplant and his brother gets breast augmentation and a genital rebuild because he feels more comfortable with a woman's body. All that's really changed here are aesthetics, the people are the same. The second brother probably goes through some hormone replacement therapy which might have some impact on their moods but they don't suddenly get their DNA rewired. Not really sure how that's dangerous. I am also surprised the whole toilet thing come up until page 3. First the sport: It is a little more complex though when we are talking about gender reassignment in children/teenagers in adults sport has become largely irrelevant and competing in a team sport is largely replaced with individual pursuits, such as running/gym work. When you are younger team sport is a big part of life and school, if a biological boy identifies as a girl and a school accepts this despite still being physically a boy how do they integrate that with sports in a fair way? Trans kids shouldn't be denied the physical benefits and educational and emotional development provided by team sports, but there is no fair solution to this problem, however you feel on the inside physically men and women develop differently, it also has further complications: The changing room, like toilets, are typically gender segregated places. Unlike toilets, which I will get to, they are considered more exposed because people actually get naked. As adults it is less of an issue, most people don't care what other people are doing in the changing room, and the whole sexualised aspect of it is moot when nobody thinks about there being gay people in your changing room. Really we should all just not be so hung up about being naked around other people, but that is adults, again with kids and teenagers it is a lot more confusing. You probably shouldn't put someone who identifies as a teenage boy in a female changing room, likewise you probably shouldn't put someone who is physically a teenage female in a changing room full of hormonal teenage boys. One solution is fvck it lets all just get changed together and not be so obsessed with our and other people's bodies, or individual changing booths for all, or we make all trans people change on their own, just further highlighting their difference. On to toilets: In part it is a ridiculous argument, really who cares who uses your toilet, I go for a shit in a little locked room and it doesn't matter who is pooing next to me, because there is a wall there. Women often use the mens toilets when it is convenient and ideally everywhere should be like music festivals, urinals for those that want to use them and sit down loos for those that want to sit, rather than segregating the sitters by gender. This is a very blokey solution. The argument is the ladies toilets are a "safe space" - don't roll your eyes - a lot of women have been attacked by men and if they are in a pub or club or bar or concert or football match and feel threatened or uncomfortable it is a place to retreat to, now imagine you are retreating to a safe space and find the very thing that you are retreating from in there, albeit dressed as a women. - I don't necessarily agree with this argument, but I also can't dismiss it, I am not a woman and have never needed to find a "safe space" I don't know how common or upsetting it is. The counter argument is would they prefer to have a woman in there dressed as and acting as a man because they can't use the gents? So should we have a third option in the toilet stakes? Mens, ladies and gender neutral? or a big communal crapfest, and women's safe space be damned? The truth of it is, what you do in your own environment is up to you, and nobody should be able to take that away, but you have to share this society with millions of different people all with different needs and perceptions, even ones you don't agree with. You can't mould society to fit one minority at the expense of others, and you can't force people to be ok with having trans acceptance implemented in areas they aren't comfortable with, and you can't bully them into accepting it.
Finnegan Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 9 minutes ago, MattP said: No I got the ironing board, my memory of it is very hazy though (which I'm thankful for) and the only thing I'm certain of is it put me off ironing for life. Hasn't this already happened though when we had the absurd spectacle of "female" Renee Richards getting to the US Open third round at the age of 47 in the 1970's? Had she had the full op before then? Either way it was absolutely ridiculous, I'm sure in later life she even said she looked back and realised how unfair it was. Knowing next to nothing about tennis, I just had to Google that. Somewhat ridiculous. I have no real issue with screening for sex in sport along with drugs or whatever else can be used to gain an unfair advantage.
Wymsey Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 Can just imagine Thracian in particular, as a guest member, looking at this thread and really wants to mention something on this thread but doesn't want people to think he's back..
Countryfox Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 5 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said: Can just imagine Thracian in particular, as a guest member, looking at this thread and really wants to mention something on this thread but doesn't want people to think he's back.. He's back .. just under a different name ... what we need to do is lay a trap ... start a new thread ... now what topic could we use ??? ... hmmmm .... any ideas ?
Dr The Singh Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 5 hours ago, Wymeswold fox said: Can just imagine Thracian in particular, as a guest member, looking at this thread and really wants to mention something on this thread but doesn't want people to think he's back.. He's cool with all genders, he has friends of all genders don't you know.
Chico1958 Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 Who cares really .......... It'll sell his album, get him on TV to promote his tour and gets people starting threads about his "outragous" claims Bolan, Bowie, Ferry to name a few......... it's all been done before with various artists in the past It just get's more and more leftfield......... Who cares
Benguin Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 13 hours ago, The Doctor said: Except of course paedophilia does harm other people (the children who are victims of them), if I were to come out tomorrow and say I wanted to be a woman, who does that harm? The "what about paedophiles" argument was nonsense when it was applied to gay people, and it's nonsense now - live and let live as a concept has always been one of do what you like so long as it doesn't harm others: there's not really an argument against it, your life is your business and only your business. Of course it does harm. I know personally of a family that was torn apart by this and several years later the highly impressionable 20 year old who had his penis removed to become a woman was extremely depressed and full of regret about his decision but could not reverse it.
leicsmac Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 7 minutes ago, Benguin said: Of course it does harm. I know personally of a family that was torn apart by this and several years later the highly impressionable 20 year old who had his penis removed to become a woman was extremely depressed and full of regret about his decision but could not reverse it. This one anecdotal story behind conclusive, it would seem then. With respect, I'm hoping you have a bit more than that to support your argument as to why people shouldn't self determine in this regard.
Benguin Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 15 hours ago, leicsmac said: Unless there is an issue with lack of clarity on my point regarding people and self determination, then this is an apples and oranges comparison IMO. Unless the implication is that there is a link between trans/gender neutral identification and paedophilia in either a direct or a slippery slope first-this-then-that fashion? I'm curious as to why exactly you think self determination of this particular type would be harmful to society and so are on board with arguments against it (though not seeking to block it yourself). No I am not saying trans people and paedophilia are correlated nor am I saying being trans leads to paedophilia. I am saying that this attitude whereby we're all different and we should just let people be themselves is harmful in its self. There are countless impressionable teenagers who lap this stuff up and what would have been a small phase in there life defines them because of it. I know this because I have seen it. Once being able to pick your gender becomes a norm, what will be next? Picking your age? Picking what species of animal you're attracted to? I don't seek to block it on the whole, as I think that a very small percentage of people are fully committed to swapping their genders and are not just impressionable or going through a phase. Whilst I do not believe that their happiness will improve by gender reassignment, I am quite okay with that happening. However nobody should be forced to pretend that they have become a man/woman.
The Doctor Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 13 minutes ago, Benguin said: Of course it does harm. I know personally of a family that was torn apart by this and several years later the highly impressionable 20 year old who had his penis removed to become a woman was extremely depressed and full of regret about his decision but could not reverse it. And I know of two folk who are happier living as the opposite gender and whose families are just happy that their kids are happier. Anecdotes mean nothing - you could argue that it's potentially difficult for family and friends to process, but the same could be said of sexuality and it's not an argument there either. 2 minutes ago, Benguin said: Once being able to pick your gender becomes a norm, what will be next? Picking your age? Picking what species of animal you're attracted to? Except gender is pretty much a load of bollocks based on societal stereotypes, whereas time and delineation of species is pretty solid. Slippery slopes are rarely actually slippery.
ajthefox Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 9 minutes ago, Benguin said: No I am not saying trans people and paedophilia are correlated nor am I saying being trans leads to paedophilia. I am saying that this attitude whereby we're all different and we should just let people be themselves is harmful in its self. There are countless impressionable teenagers who lap this stuff up and what would have been a small phase in there life defines them because of it. I know this because I have seen it. Once being able to pick your gender becomes a norm, what will be next? Picking your age? Picking what species of animal you're attracted to? I don't seek to block it on the whole, as I think that a very small percentage of people are fully committed to swapping their genders and are not just impressionable or going through a phase. Whilst I do not believe that their happiness will improve by gender reassignment, I am quite okay with that happening. However nobody should be forced to pretend that they have become a man/woman. What do you suggest?
leicsmac Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 15 minutes ago, Benguin said: No I am not saying trans people and paedophilia are correlated nor am I saying being trans leads to paedophilia. I am saying that this attitude whereby we're all different and we should just let people be themselves is harmful in its self. There are countless impressionable teenagers who lap this stuff up and what would have been a small phase in there life defines them because of it. I know this because I have seen it. Once being able to pick your gender becomes a norm, what will be next? Picking your age? Picking what species of animal you're attracted to? I don't seek to block it on the whole, as I think that a very small percentage of people are fully committed to swapping their genders and are not just impressionable or going through a phase. Whilst I do not believe that their happiness will improve by gender reassignment, I am quite okay with that happening. However nobody should be forced to pretend that they have become a man/woman. Fair enough, slippery slope fallacy it is then. I think it is safe to say we disagree on that. I would also disagree with the assertion that it is a small proportion of people who want to transition really "mean it", and that transition is not a direct factor in improving the quality of their life thereafter, but I'd have to dig to find some figures to support me on that one. Finally, while of course you should be allowed to designate them as you wish, referring to them as the terms you want to see rather than the ones they've taken for themselves says more about your own worldview than anything else about them.
Benguin Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 3 minutes ago, ajthefox said: What do you suggest? Well it's not for me to suggest as one's outlook on such things is subjective. I personally look at the evidence surrounding an issue and make a decision based upon that. For instance I know that there are many liberties, granted or not, that are harmfull and therefore am not willing to just let folks get on with it in all cases. For me personally these include things like beastiallity, abortions and drug use to name a few.
Benguin Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 3 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Fair enough, slippery slope fallacy it is then. I think it is safe to say we disagree on that. I would also disagree with the assertion that it is a small proportion of people who want to transition really "mean it", and that transition is not a direct factor in improving the quality of their life thereafter, but I'd have to dig to find some figures to support me on that one. Finally, while of course you should be allowed to designate them as you wish, referring to them as the terms you want to see rather than the ones they've taken for themselves says more about your own worldview than anything else about them. In what way is this slippery slope a fallacy? Human rights and civil liberties have exploded over the last two centuries, mostly for the better, however I highly doubt you'll find any evidence to support the fact that we are happier now than we were before it. Once this particular issue is no longer an issue, it is astonishingly clear that some other issue, that is not within the mainstream yet, will appear and so on and so on.
The Doctor Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 5 minutes ago, Benguin said: In what way is this slippery slope a fallacy? Human rights and civil liberties have exploded over the last two centuries, mostly for the better, however I highly doubt you'll find any evidence to support the fact that we are happier now than we were before it. Once this particular issue is no longer an issue, it is astonishingly clear that some other issue, that is not within the mainstream yet, will appear and so on and so on. The basic format of a slippery slope fallacy is "if we let x, then what next, y?" Saying that if we let people pick their gender, why not their age is a pretty solid example of it. As for happiness - perhaps not, but it's a pretty nebulous concept to try and measure anyway, and there's so many other things beyond liberties that affect happiness.
leicsmac Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 9 minutes ago, Benguin said: In what way is this slippery slope a fallacy? Human rights and civil liberties have exploded over the last two centuries, mostly for the better, however I highly doubt you'll find any evidence to support the fact that we are happier now than we were before it. Once this particular issue is no longer an issue, it is astonishingly clear that some other issue, that is not within the mainstream yet, will appear and so on and so on. Was going to answer this but The Doc above kindly did so for me. Happiness is indeed a highly nebulous and subjective concept, though I'd posit that women and other groups that are marginalised in the past (some still are are feeling happier about life now and that might have something to do with them now (for the most part) having the same civil liberties as the folks who have been in charge for all that time. I have no idea why the past might be viewed with a rose tint from that point of view.
Captain... Posted 26 October 2017 Posted 26 October 2017 2 hours ago, ajthefox said: What do you suggest? I know you didn't ask me, but I would suggest we strive for a society where there doesn't need to be any correlation between your physical appearance and your personality. If everyone could be happy with the body they have and feel comfortable acting how they want with that body. Body dysmorphia is a mental problem not a physical problem, and the cure is to help them mentally and not alter their physical appearance. I know that gender issues are more complex than issues with a single aspect of your appearance but the principle is the same.
The Doctor Posted 27 October 2017 Posted 27 October 2017 7 hours ago, Captain... said: I know you didn't ask me, but I would suggest we strive for a society where there doesn't need to be any correlation between your physical appearance and your personality. If everyone could be happy with the body they have and feel comfortable acting how they want with that body. Body dysmorphia is a mental problem not a physical problem, and the cure is to help them mentally and not alter their physical appearance. I know that gender issues are more complex than issues with a single aspect of your appearance but the principle is the same. I don't necessarily disagree, proper psychological help should be (and tbf, is) the first step, but just looking at the nhs website entry of gender dysphoria: https://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Treatment.aspx - quoting sex change operations as having a 96% success rate. For practically any other issue, a treatment with that level of success and we wouldn't be arguing about whether it was right to do. Not saying that should be the case here, for one I doubt it'd be as effective if there wasn't the live as the other side for a year requirement, but it seems a bit of a stretch to say therapy should be it with that in mind.
Parafox Posted 27 October 2017 Posted 27 October 2017 15 hours ago, Dr The Singh said: He's cool with all genders, he has friends of all genders don't you know. Some of his best friends are genders
ozleicester Posted 27 October 2017 Posted 27 October 2017 14 hours ago, Benguin said: No I am not saying trans people and paedophilia are correlated nor am I saying being trans leads to paedophilia. I am saying that this attitude whereby we're all different and we should just let people be themselves is harmful in its self. There are countless impressionable teenagers who lap this stuff up and what would have been a small phase in there life defines them because of it. I know this because I have seen it. Once being able to pick your gender becomes a norm, what will be next? Picking your age? Picking what species of animal you're attracted to? I don't seek to block it on the whole, as I think that a very small percentage of people are fully committed to swapping their genders and are not just impressionable or going through a phase. Whilst I do not believe that their happiness will improve by gender reassignment, I am quite okay with that happening. However nobody should be forced to pretend that they have become a man/woman. Is your heterosexuality a phase? Is your current gender a phase?
Finnegan Posted 27 October 2017 Posted 27 October 2017 I always just assumed ozleicester was an AI that had been fed too many Grauniad articles and had malfunctioned in response.
Benguin Posted 27 October 2017 Posted 27 October 2017 1 hour ago, ozleicester said: Is your heterosexuality a phase? Is your current gender a phase? No, what is your point?
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