The Riddle in the Puzzle Wrapped in a Conundrum

[Trav Le Bleu]

Sack the manager! Get rid of the big name players! Rudkin out! Clearly our owners know nothing about football!

 

Seems to be the general consensus on here.

 

I just want to sit back and analyse what has happened at the club since the amazing highs of 2015-16, break it down, pull it apart and hopefully make some sense between us all. Not that I think we will, but let's give it a go!

 

• We have heightened expectations. This is pretty much a general fact and I'm not going to argue that we shouldn't have them, of course success should be a platform for further success, but then, if that was an absolute, then there would never be any room for less successful teams to come out on top and we would never have won the Premier League in the first place. Maybe the raised expectations of some have been a little too high, but whatever the case, the weight of expectation since our title win hasn't made the job easier... without it, would our present position seem so bad? I think some people seem to forget that we've lost to teams like Millwall and Tranmere Rovers in the not too distant past.

 

• Resistance to change. By his own admission, during our title winning season Claudio made very little change to our playing style. The next season he tried to add more variety to our play, to make us less predictable. It failed, so in came Shakespeare. Intitally we had success, but once he started to make the changes he wanted to make, things were not so good and he was moved on. Puel came in and we had the same. Whether this is a valid point is somewhat ambiguous, especially when you look at Saturday's team, which had only Morgan, Albrighton, Mahrez and Vardy from the core team that won the league. This would suggest that it has nothing to do with it, but you can't deny, it keeps happening!

 

• Bizarre team selection and substitutions. I think all of our past three managers have been guilty of this, but it also seems that the bizarre team selections have become more apparent as performances have failed and they have decided that things have to change and so they have experimented... can Chilwell play as a winger? Fuchs as a central defender? Albrighton as a full-back? Hamer as a goalkeeper? Players getting themselves needlessly suspended doesn't help, but that happens at all clubs. Increasingly though we have a patchwork team, elements of Pearson, Ranieri, Shakespeare and Puel players, which is what you get when you change managers every 6 months. Is it any wonder that it's been difficult to create a first 11 that picks itself, week in, week out, as reliable. 

 

• Signings that haven't worked. This isn't a catch-all situation. Some have been good, very good. N'didi certainly stands out, as does Maguire; Iborra has promise, maybe Diabate, but so many have either drastically been poor (I'm being polite) or frustrating. Musa is probably the most glaring failure, but even in 2015-16 we carried Gokan Inler as a big signing who never did anything. Iheanacho, Slimani, Grey and Silva should have been top quality signings, and whilst they have shown glimpses of their quality, it hasn't been enough. Myself, I would keep all four (though with Slimani as first out if we can find better), they've shown that they can do it, they just need to do it consistently and be willing to work for their place in the team. We still have Kapustka and Mendy. Kapustka is still young, but probably will be moved on and Mendy has been very unlucky with injury, which never gave him the opportunity to get himself established. Not excuses, just the facts. We still have Benalouane. I know, right! The biggest question seems to be, who signed whom? Rudkin did all the naff ones and Walsh did all the fantastic ones, right? Managers have had no input, players have been signed at the behest of the owners, yeah? Buggered if I know... does anyone? Seriously?

 

• Overseeing it all. Our owners Vichai and Aiyawatt, are not above reproach. Well, not by some it seems, despite the club having it's most successful period under their tenure. Terry Shipman anyone? Ground expansion, new training facilities, free beer, free food, fan parks. Not happy? WE WON THE LEAGUE! THIS WAS NOT SOMETHING I EVER EXPECTED IN MY LIFETIME! Just that in itself will allow me to forgive them a whole raft of errors. Nobody's perfect.

 

After all of this I am of the same mind I was a few weeks ago. Which will mean I'm going to get some flak, but I'm thick-skinned, you have to be supporting Leicester City.

 

Give Puel a pre-season, give some of those misfiring players a pre-season under him and unless we're in very real danger of relegation mid-season, give him the season. He's been a good manager in the past, just as some of our under-performing players have been good players. Constant change at the top means constant change through out the team. Yes, he's messing around with formations and personnel, but eventually he will see who works where, bring in players where players aren't working and remove them where they don't. Unfortunately, no one, certainly not many of the fans, seems willing to play the long game, to endure a period of transition. It HAS TO BE instant success. Because Ranieri did it? Much as we don't want to admit it, that was just a perfect storm where everything just fell right and it won't happen again in a long time, certainly not overnight. 

 

There we go. I know there's many different threads on the forum covering our short-comings at the moment, just thought I'd try an overview. I'm not saying I've answered the Riddle in the Puzzle (yadda yadda), I don't think anyone can, but I don't think it's "just one thing" that is the problem, so I'm not sure that drastic changes will make any difference and maybe a little constancy might work. Don't expect anyone to agree with me, but typing all this out has at least been cathartic. 

[ithuriel]

I think we are quite well set up, just that the last two managerial selections have not worked, Shakey was a gamble and Puel is struggling in the Prem.

Finding the right guy for the hot seat may not be easy but the fans can see when something is right and will give it time, when something is wrong however it does not take long to become apparent.

There has not been too much booing  at home over the past few years so the crowds who actually pay to watch do not get on the teams back, though the last home game there was some at half time and a good number left before the final whistle.

[Nick]

All I know is that I’ve checked back several times today and he’s not yet lost his job which is disappointing.

[TheLittleBigMan]

Just now, Swan Lesta said:

All I know is that I’ve checked back several times today and he’s not yet lost his job which is disappointing.

Same, a mate said "he'll get sacked in the morning" I thought, they won't wait that long...

[Vacamion]

15 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

... can Chilwell play as a winger? Fuchs as a central defender? Albrighton as a full-back? Hamer as a goalkeeper?

 

Hamer as a goalkeeper

 

 

Repped for this comedic flourish.

 

 

 

 

 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

Puel will do well to get to the end of the season, let alone the start of next.

[Blue ROI]

42 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

 

• We have heightened expectations.  True to an extent as some fans will always think of 2 years ago and why we're underperforming now. I'd say any fan who was around since the 90s has no great expectation though. Whether the fanbase want to believe it or not our title win had as much to do with the collapse of the big 6 as it did our own brilliance. Chelsea's Mourinho fallout, Arsenal and Man Utd's decline, Man City and Liverpool changing managers. Even clubs above us like Villa and Newcastle falling apart at the bottom. Almost every result where we needed sometime to lose or draw went our way. We has a lifetimes worth of luck in a whole season really. Only 4 clubs had a good season then. Us, spurs, West Ham and Bournemouth. The rest fell below expectations.

          It's a lottery when we play the top 6 now. It always has been.  Blooddin the noses of the Premier League establishment was where the real joy in winning         the     league was. You think of getting one over on Man City, Chelsea Liverpool,and Spurs.  Beating Norwich, SOuthampton, Everton, Swansea isnt as satisfying to many I dare say

      

• Resistance to change. A factor yes but bigger clubs than us have struggled to get the balance right. United post Fergie.Anyone think that say Atletico Madrid would be successful abandoning their counter-attack game for a passing style would work instantly? A big problem post title was that we had a team that were old even then. It was always going to cause problems afterwards. Different for a nascent Man Utd in 93 with mid 20s players like Keane, Giggs and Cantona or even Mid 00s chelsea with Terry, and Lampard. It's a safe bet that we had one of the oldest champions in history.

• Bizarre team selection and substitutions. I can understand yesterday to some degree with Simpson and Amartey out, N'Didi being injured during the game and no Kasper and Okazaki. But there has been a theme of managers clinging to the 2016 comfort blanket much to our annoyance. Morgan, Simpson, King, Mahrez to name but a few. Leaving an effective player like Iborra out.

 

• Signings that haven't worked.  This as much as anything is where we've missed Pearson and a major cause of our downfall. Our brilliance in this area was staggering for about 5 years or so. 1 million for Vardy, need I say more? Kramaric aside who was unlucky that Vardy came good we were on the money with our singings. 2016 was bad for any number of reasons but we didnt sign any leaders. Even Slimani who I do have time for was bickering on the pitch with players last season.   Under NIge those disastrous summer signings would never have happened.

 

• Overseeing it all. I do like the owners. They have been more good than bad definitely. They have made a few errors though. Sven getting the job when he was damaged goods being one. They lived the good life after the title win as we all did but the day to day workings of the club look to have taken a back seat. Understandable that Claude became manager as we cant really attract the elite forces in the game but I'd like them to take notice of whats going on across Europe instead of going for low hanging fruit in England.

 

Edited 29 April 2018 by Blue ROI

[Mr Mister]

We had a chance to get a Europa League place and win one of the Cups. Puel's crappy, defensive tactics ruined this.

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

Good thread and post this. I turned yesterday, and was furious and then ended up just feeling sorry for him - for some of the reasons you outline above.

 

I would dearly love to give him time. The first 8 games were very promising - and I thought we finally had that plan a AND b - possession and the ability to counter. It’s been bizarre because the last 17 games we’ve just done plan a - very badly.

 

Now I don’t know what to think. I think if we keep him, we need to have a big clear out - starting with Morgan. And to be fair to Puel, he has began a clear out of sorts... haha now I’m talking myself around!

[RutlanderFox]

If we beat West Ham at the weekend, who looked poor today, a lot more people would be happy for him to have the summer 

[Webbo]

I think people are over analysing this. He was brought in to do a job and he's failed. It doesn't matter what club it's at,it happens to managers every year.

[The Prince]

Great OP!

 

Despite the awful performance on Saturday, not much has really changed. Those who believe Puel  should be given time to get his own players should still believe this. That said, the decision to bring Morgan back in does worry me. I cannot think of a reasonable explanation for this. 

 

I watched the the game against Palace and while things did conspire against a little in the second half, we cannot continue to start games so slowly. My biggest worry with Puel is that some players really aren't trying for him. Maybe there is no way back once this happens. I guess it depends on the amount of players and how important they are to our future development. 

 

One thing I would add is this craving from our fans (skewed by our season of miracles) for this exciting, attacking football is perhaps a little idealistic. I've just watched Man Utd v Arsenal (two of the big six) and it was dull.  The facts are that other than Man City, Liverpool and maybe Spurs, there really aren't any other teams doing this with an consistency. Ask any manager if they want to play brilliant, attractive, free flowing football and I am positive all would say yes. Clearly it's not that simple without an exceptional squad of players. 

 

Obviously, there is a tremendous amount to improve on but I have seen enough from Puel to think he has a chance of succeeding. 

 

 

[deep blue]

52 minutes ago, bmouth_fox said:

Good thread and post this. I turned yesterday, and was furious and then ended up just feeling sorry for him - for some of the reasons you outline above.

 

I would dearly love to give him time. The first 8 games were very promising - and I thought we finally had that plan a AND b - possession and the ability to counter. It’s been bizarre because the last 17 games we’ve just done plan a - very badly.

 

Now I don’t know what to think. I think if we keep him, we need to have a big clear out - starting with Morgan. And to be fair to Puel, he has began a clear out of sorts... haha now I’m talking myself around!

I've followed a similar journey. Pleased that we appointed a "thinking"manager who might sort out what was needed long term and be able to plan the transition, and I've been hoping that he would go a long way to that with a successful summer window and pre-season.

 

However, the owners need to feel confident enough in his progress to entrust him with a large summer spend. For me, my faith in that has taken a huge knock in the last few weeks as performances seem to be on an unstoppable slide, and I have just about crossed over to the dark side, and want him out.

 

One point - Puel has achieved this long plan approach in the past, but only on the continent, whereas the Prem seems to be a completely different kettle of fish.

[Kitchandro]

I think some of what you say is fair but your sentiment is totally wrong and if the club has this same soft, passive attitude then we're in big trouble.

 

The argument falls apart with the 'give him time to bring his own players in' section. For several reasons:

 

1. The players we already have are good enough. Yes, most of our singings over the past 2 and a half seasons have been very poor. But we still have quite a lot of quality here, certainly our best 11 is very good comparative to most teams in this league. Puel isn't picking this best 11 though, and even if he was occassionally...

 

2. He's been here long enough to have settled on his preferred 11 and a specific playing style but he has done neither. It's worrying at best that he can't make his mind up, and frankly, makes him look totally clueless. It's Puel's fault and no one elses that he's chopping and changing. OK, so he may want different players, but if he hasn't decided which are the best ones out of what we have, then he's an idiot. It's almost like he's doing it to make a point, your point, which brings me to point 3...

 

3. The manager doesn't often specifically select the players. He may advise as to the sort of players he wants, but the actual quality of them is down to the scouting department. This is one thing that Puel (as well as Shakespeare and Ranieir) can't really be blamed for - the signings are never going to be totally his responsibility. However, that also means it's not a very strong argument to keep him on. What are 'his' players exactly? As I said on another thread, trust is earned. Every manager wants to bring their own type of players in. But why should we let Puel do that? If Vichai got him in the boardroom Monday morning and asked him to argue why he should be given transfer funds in a Dragons Den-esque scene, he wouldn't have a leg to stand on. And alot of that is to do with point 4...

 

4. His style of play is crap. And I'm being kind here, because it's a stretch to say we have a style of play. Sometimes the full backs push very high, sometimes they don't. Sometimes we try to pass the ball, other times we don't. Whatever it is, most games go a very similar way. We start with a very slow tempo, with the emphasis on keeping possession. The central midfielders neither support the forward players nor protect the back 4, and when we've finished passing it around and going to nowhere we switch the ball out wide and try and cross it in high to short-arses like Vardy and Okazaki. With a lack of urgency, and after being outworked by more dynamic teams, we go a goal or two down. Then we start to up the tempo and grow into the game and whilst a lot of fans understand that we need to play at a high tempo from the start in order to win games, Puel hasn't got it through his thick skull.

 

Leicester fans don't want to watch this awful style of play and shouldn't be subjected to it. It is not entertaining and it is not effective. Even if Puel was allowed to bring in his own players, it still wouldn't be effective because the players we would bring in would be inferior to the top sides due to our financial constraints and run-of-the-mill status. Possession football only works if you have superior players, we won't. Even then, you have to play it at a high tempo, we don't. And teams with less resources (i.e. Palace and Burnley) know how to counter teams that like to keep possession by either pressing high and not giving players time on the ball, or sitting back and asking them to thread it through the eye of a needle. It's so easy for them and it will be a disaster if we let Puel bring in a load of players just to play this way.

 

The whole thing is The Emperors New Clothes. We're told possession football is attractive, it isn't. Goals are attractive. Creating chances is attractive. Slow sideways passing isn't attractive. We seem to have been brainwashed by the media into thinking that the way we played in 2015/16 wasn't exciting or was limited. We need to get this nonsense out of our minds and remember that entertaining, effective football is about moving the ball forward at a high tempo, using pace and putting the goal nets to use. Puel is trying to switch us to an inferior style that he can't even implement correctly.

 

-

 

Clubs go backwards when they start to stagnate, and all we will do under managers like Shakespeare and Puel is stagnate. They don't deserve more time and we can't afford it. It's not about whether we are in immediate danger of relegation, it's about whether we are moving forward. If you're not moving forward, you become one of those clubs that slowly slips down to the status of perennial relegation strugglers because you didn't have the ambition to be the best you could be. Good players move on because of this, and you become less and less attractive to potential signings and managers. Not to mention crowds drop and the atmosphere disappears.

 

Are we moving forward? Let's see, how have things gone since Puel's initial honeymoon period.

 

• Our style of play has regressed continuously
• Our results have got worse
• There have been no positive signs for months that would fill anyone with any excitement for next season.

This is why we need to sack Puel now. The negative signs are staring us in the face and if we keep leaving it and continuing the path of slow regression, we will become a very unnattractive club when we do inveitably want to replace him.

 

This isn't panic or impatience, it's about professionalism. The football club should be trying to do it's best for itself and there is no time for sentiment. We made the mistake of sticking with Shakespeare last year and giving him time, and, as I predicted, we just carried on going backwards. We are now in an identical situation one year on, except we got hammered by Palace rather than Spurs.

 

The result of this was another shockingly uninspiring appointment, partially because we were a team in the bottom 3, and therefore, not as attractive as we may have been several months earlier. Our stock is falling every season that passes since 2015/16. We blew our opportunity to build on that, let's not make the same mistakes again.

 

Puel should never have been hired in the first place and my view on that hasn't changed. As far as I'm concerned, he is a disease to this club, and his terrible ideas and the way he wants us to play football can't be allowed to spread for any longer just because some people are too timid to make bold decisions.

Edited 29 April 2018 by Kitchandro

[The Wizard]

2 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

The Riddle in the Puzzle Wrapped in a Conundrum.  Errrmm ...sounds more confusing that Claude's team selections.. 

[lgfualol]

Think we are just a bit shit. Players can only and want to only play one way which doesnt actually work as well as we all hope it would. I dont think many of the team actually like each other.

 

Then we have managers where things just end up going to shit. 

 

I feel like everyone at the club is a bit thick, and that's coming from a thick supporter. 

 

Anyway anything but relegation next season would be nice.

[Bluetintedspecs]

Thought provoking from the OP and also from subsequent posts, I am conflicted because of the glimpses of what we initially saw and my usual advocacy of patience, yet the downturn since Riyads mardy arse strop is alarming! Sadly and reluctantly I find myself in the Puel out camp now as yesterday was unforgivable from both players and Manager!

[m4DD0gg]

2 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

 

 

Give Puel a pre-season

 

Are you actually serious?!

[Trav Le Bleu]

19 minutes ago, deep blue said:

.

 

One point - Puel has achieved this long plan approach in the past, but only on the continent, whereas the Prem seems to be a completely different kettle of fish.

Thanks, I wanted to make this point in my OP, but it was so long, with so many points, I inevitably missed some. The telling point is of course that his success was not in the EPL. However, never been given that long in the EPL, which in turn says something about the EPL.

[Trav Le Bleu]

2 minutes ago, m4DD0gg said:

 

Are you actually serious?!

You're allowed to disagree.

 

Believe it or not, people have different opinions and perspectives.

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

23 minutes ago, Kitchandro said:

I think some of what you say is fair but your sentiment is totally wrong and if the club has this same soft, passive attitude then we're in big trouble.

 

The argument falls apart with the 'give him time to bring his own players in' section. For several reasons:

 

1. The players we already have are good enough. Yes, most of our singings over the past 2 and a half seasons have been very poor. But we still have quite a lot of quality here, certainly our best 11 is very good comparative to most teams in this league. Puel isn't picking this best 11 though, and even if he was occassionally...

 

2. He's been here long enough to have settled on his preferred 11 and a specific playing style but he has done neither. It's worrying at best that he can't make his mind up, and frankly, makes him look totally clueless. It's Puel's fault and no one elses that he's chopping and changing. OK, so he may want different players, but if he hasn't decided which are the best ones out of what we have, then he's an idiot. It's almost like he's doing it to make a point, your point, which brings me to point 3...

 

3. The manager doesn't often specifically select the players. He may advise as to the sort of players he wants, but the actual quality of them is down to the scouting department. This is one thing that Puel (as well as Shakespeare and Ranieir) can't really be blamed for - the signings are never going to be totally his responsibility. However, that also means it's not a very strong argument to keep him on. What are 'his' players exactly? As I said on another thread, trust is earned. Every manager wants to bring their own type of players in. But why should we let Puel do that? If Vichai got him in the boardroom Monday morning and asked him to argue why he should be given transfer funds in a Dragons Den-esque scene, he wouldn't have a leg to stand on. And alot of that is to do with point 4...

 

4. His style of play is crap. And I'm being kind here, because it's a stretch to say we have a style of play. Sometimes the full backs push very high, sometimes they don't. Sometimes we try to pass the ball, other times we don't. Whatever it is, most games go a very similar way. We start with a very slow tempo, with the emphasis on keeping possession. The central midfielders neither support the forward players nor protect the back 4, and when we've finished passing it around and going to nowhere we switch the ball out wide and try and cross it in high to short-arses like Vardy and Okazaki. With a lack of urgency, and after being outworked by more dynamic teams, we go a goal or two down. Then we start to up the tempo and grow into the game and whilst a lot of fans understand that we need to play at a high tempo from the start in order to win games, Puel hasn't got it through his thick skull.

 

Leicester fans don't want to watch this awful style of play and shouldn't be subjected to it. It is not entertaining and it is not effective. Even if Puel was allowed to bring in his own players, it still wouldn't be effective because the players we would bring in would be inferior to the top sides due to our financial constraints and run-of-the-mill status. Possession football only works if you have superior players, we won't. Even then, you have to play it at a high tempo, we don't. And teams with less resources (i.e. Palace and Burnley) know how to counter teams that like to keep possession by either pressing high and not giving players time on the ball, or sitting back and asking them to thread it through the eye of a needle. It's so easy for them and it will be a disaster if we let Puel bring in a load of players just to play this way.

 

The whole thing is The Emperors New Clothes. We're told possession football is attractive, it isn't. Goals are attractive. Creating chances is attractive. Slow sideways passing isn't attractive. We seem to have been brainwashed by the media into thinking that the way we played in 2015/16 wasn't exciting or was limited. We need to get this nonsense out of our minds and remember that entertaining, effective football is about moving the ball forward at a high tempo, using pace and putting the goal nets to use. Puel is trying to switch us to an inferior style that he can't even implement correctly.

 

-

 

Clubs go backwards when they start to stagnate, and all we will do under managers like Shakespeare and Puel is stagnate. They don't deserve more time and we can't afford it. It's not about whether we are in immediate danger of relegation, it's about whether we are moving forward. If you're not moving forward, you become one of those clubs that slowly slips down to the status of perennial relegation strugglers because you didn't have the ambition to be the best you could be. Good players move on because of this, and you become less and less attractive to potential signings and managers. Not to mention crowds drop and the atmosphere disappears.

 

Are we moving forward? Let's see, how have things gone since Puel's initial honeymoon period.

 

• Our style of play has regressed continuously
• Our results have got worse
• There have been no positive signs for months that would fill anyone with any excitement for next season.

This is why we need to sack Puel now. The negative signs are staring us in the face and if we keep leaving it and continuing the path of slow regression, we will become a very unnattractive club when we do inveitably want to replace him.

 

This isn't panic or impatience, it's about professionalism. The football club should be trying to do it's best for itself and there is no time for sentiment. We made the mistake of sticking with Shakespeare last year and giving him time, and, as I predicted, we just carried on going backwards. We are now in an identical situation one year one, except we got hammered by Palace rather than Spurs.

 

The result of this was another shockingly uninspiring appointment, partially because we were a team in the bottom 3, and therefore, not as attractive as we may have been several months earlier. Our stock is falling every season that passes since 2015/16. We blew our opportunity to build on that, let's not make the same mistakes again.

 

Puel should never have been hired in the first place and my view on that hasn't changed. As far as I'm concerned, he is a disease to this club, and his terrible ideas and the way he wants us to play football can't be allowed to spread for any longer just because some people are too timid to make bold decisions.

 

This is one of the most sensible things I have ever read on this forum, and why Pep is massively overrated. I hate that the media love him like they do.

 

Could Pep succeed with his style at Stoke? No. Comparing Puel to Pep is a stretch (if Pep is Waitrose, Puel is Poundland), but ultimately this is why possession style isn’t working with this group who were 5,000/1 champions playing fast paced in ya face football.

[jammie82uk]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

I think people are over analysing this. He was brought in to do a job and he's failed. It doesn't matter what club it's at,it happens to managers every year.

Has he failed? His number 1 objective when he came in was to achieve premier league football next season 

[oxtonfox]

I feel for Puel and ideally he would be in for the length of his contract given premiership survival ; however the owners have bigger ambitions. Winning the league has raised their and our expectations, and the pathetic attempt to achieve 7th and FA Cup ambitions has left a bad taste. but worse is the current disarray and relegation form performances. not since Swansea have we led in a home league match. 

I believe the barrels are loaded and a managerial change will happen this week. 

[Webbo]

18 minutes ago, jammie82uk said:

Has he failed? His number 1 objective when he came in was to achieve premier league football next season 

I think the owners had a bit more ambition than that. I don't think the owners didn't wanted relegation form for next season either.

[Ron Combo]

Good post Trav and some interesting replies. I think Puel should have more time but I completely understand the impatience of people who want him out. Just wondering if things might improve when Mahrez slings his hook? The Man City transfer farce threw the whole squad out of kilter imho.