Define Potential

[Fox92]

Just now, Finnegan said:

 

Is that a problem? 

 

Do you think potential has an age cap? 

 

Wasn't Vardy kinda old to be seen as a prospect with a lot of potential? 

 

I'm not being picky, I'm genuinely curious to hear your views. 

That's a good point about Vardy, but I'd expect a 25 year old footballer to be generally developed. There are players who get better with age and there are players who develop by playing under a good manager (Pep is a good example making the likes of Sterling much better). I suppose there isn't an age cap but I don't get why we get so many young players with "potential" who never make the first team.

[LittlethorpeFox]

potential is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think many spotted the potential of Kane and Lingard when they were at LCFC. People thought they were bad but they obviously had potential. Gareth Bale was nearly sold to Forest at one point... 

[Babylon]

6 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

People talk about potential with Maguire. He's 25.

And it's said players peak at 28 isn't it, perhaps a bit older for some positions, so not really a probelm is it?

 

Going back to the dictionary definition which Finners is crying about "having or showing the capacity to develop into something in the future", it doesn't really have anything to do with age.

 

You could say Silva has potential, given time in this league to settle down and offer more than kicking the ball directly into touch. The future could be in two months, a year, or three years.

Edited 2 May 2018 by Babylon

[Finnegan]

2 minutes ago, LittlethorpeFox said:

potential is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think many spotted the potential of Kane and Lingard when they were at LCFC. People thought they were bad but they obviously had potential. Gareth Bale was nearly sold to Forest at one point... 

 

I still keep convincing myself Lingard is shit and is on the verge of getting found out.

 

I just don't understand how he keeps scoring goals. He's like United's Okazaki I suppose, he just doesn't look like a good footballer at all and then next thing you know he's run through your team and smashed it in. 

[LittlethorpeFox]

1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

 

I still keep convincing myself Lingard is shit and is on the verge of getting found out.

 

I just don't understand how he keeps scoring goals. He's like United's Okazaki I suppose, he just doesn't look like a good footballer at all and then next thing you know he's run through your team and smashed it in. 

i don't think there's any denying his talent. Fergie called it years before he ever started scoring for Untired 

[urban.spaceman]

Depending on who you ask Gray is either going to be the new Mahrez or the new Schlupp, just without the charm as per the former and without the comedy value as per the latter. He's also a Brummie which makes him appear more mardy, which doesn't help him.

 

He does have a lot of potential IMO, but so far he's been feeding on scraps of playtime and being asked to do something different more or less every time. I think the longest run of starts he's had has been under Puel - 5 starts in a row and even the first of those was under Appleton. This isn't to say that he's also let himself down a lot because he definitely has. But with 90 minutes here, and 17, 12, 5, 30, 14, 7 minutes there, how do you expect him to consistently express himself? How is he supposed to shine if you won't let him?

 

Chilwell also comes in for a lot of flak but he never gets enough credit for forcing his way into a Premier League defence at his young age. 

 

Ndidi came into the team and instantly made himself undroppable. He's already performing to a very high standard and could definitely be better than Kante at his peak. He's a massive talent that needs to be nurtured, because he could genuinely be one of the best in the world.

 

I suppose the one word that needs to go alongside potential is patience.

 

Leicester fans most of all should understand what patience in players can bring. Remember Vardy's utterly dreadful first season? Mahrez hardly set the world alight before the Autumn of 2015, did he? Drinkwater struggled to get in the team until James was injured and Cambiasso left; Kante's arrival unlocked something in him and he was the best midfielder in the country for that season, except for Kante of course. 

 

The point is, potential means nothing until you have the coaching staff to unlock it. Which makes the next decision of the owners so very crucial.

[Finnegan]

1 minute ago, LittlethorpeFox said:

i don't think there's any denying his talent. Fergie called it years before he ever started scoring for Untired 

 

Tbh, I think I'd quite like him if he didn't act like the stereotypical 12 year old chav fifa playing moron with all of the stupid dabbing and retarded dances and generally refusing to act like anything resembling an adult. 

 

I about pissed myself when he shushed the Kop despite literally nobody booing him or giving him stick or giving any kind of toss that he was even on the pitch because he seemed to think that's just what you do to former clubs to look cool. 

 

It was so cringe worthy, like a footballer equivalent of a character off the inbetweeners. 

 

[Lovejoy]

Gray will never make it, just look at how good Mahrez was by that age .

 

EDIT: Being serious, football clubs are playing a lottery with young players, when they're young you're playing the law of average, eventually enough rotters will lead to a star.

Edited 2 May 2018 by Lovejoy

[ramaiya2]

Gray will make it. Gray just needs a proper Manager to make him better

[shen]

5 minutes ago, Lovejoy said:

Gray will never make it, just look at how good Mahrez was by that age .

 

EDIT: Being serious, football clubs are playing a lottery with young players, when they're young you're playing the law of average, eventually enough rotters will lead to a star.

It's got little to do with age. If your application and mental hardiness isn't there, it doesn't matter how talented you are; you won't make it at top level.

Mahrez is also a good deal more talented than Gray, he's got vision and technique that Gray can only wish to achieve at some point in his career.

[CosbehFox]

All of those players mentioned have that raw talent what get you excited. The raw talent alone makes them exceeded in the lower divisions and youth groups. 

 

The difficulty is particularly at the moment with Gray and Chilwell is how you use that raw talent intelligently. There was a time on Saturday where Gray had a 1 on 1 against Loftus-Cheek; the Palace player had just came back from injury, he was beginning to struggle with tiredness but Gray didn't recognise this, he slowed it down. Similarly if Chilwell realises he can't play that perfect cross every time, then he needs to learn how to deliver it earlier (also how to use his right foot). 

 

I see in Diabate a player who really does well coming on into a game because he seemingly notes where the off-the ball running could be better. His movement is really clever. The difficulty for him is he probably does the same starting but his raw pace is neutralised by fresher, less tired players like he can when a sub. Wilf just simply needs to sharpen his passing, keep it short and learn what passes his team-mates prefer. 

 

The promising players what take that raw talent and add intelligence, become the players. 

[shen]

2 minutes ago, ramaiya2 said:

Gray will make it. Gray just needs a proper Manager to make him better

Gray needs to grow some balls and take responsibility.

This has nothing to do with anyone but himself.

It's not the manager who keeps picking him and playing him in his preferred position who's at fault.

At best, look at the coaches and training.

[davieG]

I'm not sure but it must include to have shown that they can absorb, learn and improve from having a greater knowledge/awareness of the skills they are trying to perfect.

 

I believe that the U23s are a complete waste of time. If they haven't made the subs bench at least by the time they are 21/22 then they should be moved on. Most of them should be learning their trade in the lower leagues playing against seasoned professionals in meaningful games then we'd have a better chance of seeing if any potential has been achieved.

 

I'd like to see the rebirth of the Football Combination League (reserves) where the best of the u18/21s would play with those squad players not getting games or recovering from injury against similar teams.

[Dan LCFC]

I think it's too often a bit of a safety net for a younger player and too many times it absolves them from criticism. While I wouldn't go overboard criticising a younger player such as say, Choudhury, I do think too many people attribute being young to automatically having potential. Some of these players don't actually get better, or if they do it's pretty insignificant.

 

There's no guarantee that Demarai Gray will ever amount to anything more than he is now. In-fact, if I'm honest, I'm err on the side of saying that will be the case.

 

Whereas someone like Diabate for example, I think makes better decisions on the ball, plays more for the team than Gray does. has more skill, I'd say has higher potential as he's got better fundamental aspects to his game.

 

For me it's largely about the likelihood of a player's weakness improving over time, for example players who are released as youngsters for being too small (which is an absolutely ludicrous concept, that would've seen Messi released if he was English) when that's something that can come in time.

[Bert]

For me the best way of explaining it is when Man Utd signed Ronaldo, he had potential. Now look at what he's done in the game. There's no limit to potential because people can always improve but until you've done it over and over again at the top that's when you've come as close to reaching your potential. 

 

Gray for example will never reach that level of course, his potential for me is that he can be a top flight footballer for years to come. It's all about the context. 

[ramaiya2]

20 minutes ago, shen said:

Gray needs to grow some balls and take responsibility.

This has nothing to do with anyone but himself.

It's not the manager who keeps picking him and playing him in his preferred position who's at fault.

At best, look at the coaches and training.

The Manager (or a proper Manager, Man Manges him) A Manager also brings in the right training coaches and training sessions

[David Guiza]

1 hour ago, the fox said:

Potential means that you ain't done shit yet.

So if they haven't done nothing, what have they done? 

 

I would argue that you could have shown signs already, such as Ryan Sessegnon at Fulham, but have the 'potential' to be a great player. 

 

It's difficult to manage though, I'm sure we all know people who were fantastic players at a young age but faded away with age. The professional game is no different, just ask Cherno Samba and Freddy Adu. 

 

 

[fuchsntf]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

I'd like to think it was fairly obvious I didn't want the word explained to me. 

 

I'm pretty confident both Gerard and Babylon thought they were being hilarious. 

 

I'm well aware it's a very difficult thing to really define and that nobody rreeaaally has an answer. 

 

I'm just curious as to what people think. It's accepted as a given that Gray has potential whilst I personally think it's rubbish. He's got a crap attitude and hasn't really offered up any improvement since he arrived. 

 

Meanwhile Ndidi by and large has grown more and more in to his role. 

You point on Gray..Potential has to evolve develope,different players/Individuals

take more time than the other.

They ride highs and then have Period of disappointment,self doubt and become disilluisoned,

especially,when the string players you looked upto are having themselves long Periods of

Loss of Form.I believe  heavily that players like Gray ,Chilwell,Nacho,who developed in

the English enviroment,are Findung it difficult because the experienced players they

could and should turn to and look to,have simply not been there,and the whole coaching

Staff would have hammered that Into them.They are having to Carry to much of the

Load and expectations on themselves without anyone to turn to on Matchday.

Diabate,came in Form a foreign enviroment,he has no baggage to Carry,nor anybody

he Sees,that he can turn to for his play and style,so he just is free to strutt his stuff.

Gray had that From Ranieri and space from fans,in his 1st season.

Now some expect him to be a miracle worker. Plus when does move forward and gets

US on the attack,Vardy has Stole his space,or nobody is there in the box,competing to

get free from the defender.Ditto for Nacho. Even worse for Chills coming from deep.

Our runs has a Team,has been poor,our movement off the ball stagnant or with no

understanding, meaning commitment to a move,or drive forward ...fades out.

Our youngsters potential has been lost of Late,because the squads experienced

Players are struggling themselves. Kasper's and Morgan's antics have not shown

the type of backing or leadership towards the young players.

Zaha had simular problems at Palace,but now has matured and realised he 

eventually had to go it alone.CPalace Like Leicester had potential to confirm

top 10 this season,but both have suffered because experienced players have struggled.

Potential in football,is not only the obvious and individual possibilities,but relies heavily

on consistent good From from your teamates,when you are still discovering yourself.

 

Ranieri,Shakespeare,Puel have had some of the paciest young individuals in the PL,

that with the unique Pacey Vardy,and after the title,failed miserably in using that

Strength and advantage,but also the players has a group on matchday have failed

the Character,and mental strength/attitude to utilise it..

Klopp and Liverpool,found together these strengths,even on poor days they kept

their ethos rolling,playing always for top 4..

So a Team realising its own potential,helps the Individual helping and achieving their own.

 

[shen]

44 minutes ago, ramaiya2 said:

The Manager (or a proper Manager, Man Manges him) A Manager also brings in the right training coaches and training sessions

As long as the manager isn't a hindrance to the player's development, I don't necessarily agree that a manager is central.

It's the player first and foremost that is responsible, next are the environment (facilities, colleagues be it staff or players...) and training.

Sometimes the manager will have a larger role when it comes to personal handling of a player, but a lot of that is centered around match day.

[Ian Nacho]

I know FT lacks intelligence at times but not knowing what potential means is a new level

 

[Stadt]

I posted this in another thread the other day

 

"How often have you seen a player that’s limited in attack actually improve in that regard? People probably said the same about Simpson when he was younger “oh he’s not very good going forwards but he’ll improve”. Our fans have been saying Chilwell will improve defensively but he barely has over two seasons."

 

Some posters think because Demarai Gray will improve because he's young, it doesn't really work like that because people said the same about Aaron Lennon and Walcott for years. Basically it's very rare that a player drastically improves from 20/21 to 26. There arse some players like Vardy which I think you have to discount because he wasn't in a professional environment until he was 25. Mahrez arguably is one but it doesn't happen often that a player is x good at 19 so will therefore be y good later on.

[Stadt]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

thing you know he's run through your team and smashed it in

Has Okazaki ever done that?

[Bert]

3 hours ago, Finnegan said:

It's been over two years of Foxestalk discussing Demarai Gray's potential. We love a bit of this. Ndidi, Chilwell, Barnes, Lawrence, Thomas, Diabate, now Maddison, you name it. They're young, they must have potential. Right? 

 

But what does that actually mean? How do you decide who has it and who doesn't? Are you judging their ability now, in which case that's not really potential is it, or are you looking for something else about them that indicates they'll improve? 

 

I can't really mask my cynical nature, it comes from my firm belief that 99.9r% of this forum is full of shit (myself included) but I genuinely don't mean to just belittle everyone here I'm really curious to hear people's views. 

 

Seriously. What do you define as potential, who do you think has it, why do you think this way, are you simply repeating what everyone else thinks? Do you think Gray, Ndidi, Chilwell and Co have shown improvement? Do you think they've peaked? 

 

Do you simply think they MUST have potential because they're young and logical dictates you get better at things? 

 

Turn the football manager part of your brain off for a second (because let's be honest, football manager has gotten it wrong about 20000% more than they've gotten it right) and just think in real world terms. 

 

Ashley Chambers was one of our favourites, he had bags of potential, he's now in non league. Thracian saw potential in Alan Sheehan, he's currently in league two. Andy King came in to the first team largely without much fanfare and three league titles later is a club legend. 

 

Nobody ever predicted that one (Thracian doesn't count, when you claim every single member of the academy team is bound for greatness you can't take credit when one actually comes through) so what did King have about him that Levi Porter didn't? 

 

I'm not trying to make any point here specifically, I really am just asking the question. What does potential mean to you? 

 

The difference between Andy King and Levi Porter? Attitude. And not being a tealeaf. 

[Donut]

Some of it is just being in the right place at the right time too. Capitalising on an opportunity given to them by circumstances

[The Doctor]

4 hours ago, Wookie said:

Has Okazaki ever done that?

 Be fair, shinji doesn't do smashing one in. His goal at newcastle November 2015 is still the greatest worst goal I've ever seen - free header on the line and still only just gets it over the line