Define Potential

[Finnegan]

It's been over two years of Foxestalk discussing Demarai Gray's potential. We love a bit of this. Ndidi, Chilwell, Barnes, Lawrence, Thomas, Diabate, now Maddison, you name it. They're young, they must have potential. Right? 

 

But what does that actually mean? How do you decide who has it and who doesn't? Are you judging their ability now, in which case that's not really potential is it, or are you looking for something else about them that indicates they'll improve? 

 

I can't really mask my cynical nature, it comes from my firm belief that 99.9r% of this forum is full of shit (myself included) but I genuinely don't mean to just belittle everyone here I'm really curious to hear people's views. 

 

Seriously. What do you define as potential, who do you think has it, why do you think this way, are you simply repeating what everyone else thinks? Do you think Gray, Ndidi, Chilwell and Co have shown improvement? Do you think they've peaked? 

 

Do you simply think they MUST have potential because they're young and logical dictates you get better at things? 

 

Turn the football manager part of your brain off for a second (because let's be honest, football manager has gotten it wrong about 20000% more than they've gotten it right) and just think in real world terms. 

 

Ashley Chambers was one of our favourites, he had bags of potential, he's now in non league. Thracian saw potential in Alan Sheehan, he's currently in league two. Andy King came in to the first team largely without much fanfare and three league titles later is a club legend. 

 

Nobody ever predicted that one (Thracian doesn't count, when you claim every single member of the academy team is bound for greatness you can't take credit when one actually comes through) so what did King have about him that Levi Porter didn't? 

 

I'm not trying to make any point here specifically, I really am just asking the question. What does potential mean to you? 

 

Edited 2 May 2018 by Finnegan

[Nalis]

I know what its not.

 

Two of the things we all ignore when it comes to potential is temperament and mentality. Ravel Morrsion had 'potential' but its useless when the player lack the temperament and mentality to improve their game.

Edited 2 May 2018 by Nalis

[mancunianfox]

I think people generally when people talk about potential they are usually referring to talent. Gray is a good example as he has moments when you can see that he has the ability to do good things with a football. These may only happen occasionally but it usually enough to be labelled with potential because it starts the imagination going....i.e. if he can do stuff like that every now and again, what if he can do it regularly!! The problem with that is that it takes an enormous amount of work ethic, self belief and mental toughness to become good at any sport and it is difficult for us to predict this. We as fans cannot see this (as can't clubs it seems).

 

You asked the difference between Porter and King - it is most probably these 'intangibles' rather than potential.

[Gerard]

having or showing the capacity to develop into something in the future.

latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness.

 

Source: Dictionary

[Tuna]

The way I look at potential is, firstly their raw attributes and qualities, and then their mental strength and character to want to make it and improve, their hunger and desire.

 

I look at players like Rashford and Dele Alli and can see they have both.

 

But you also need a good level of coaching to help players make the most of it. Some players seemingly just do not have the mental strength or determination, interest, (Berahino, David Bentley, Ravel Morrison) or have been coached badly.

 

I think sometimes in this country we take a one glove fits all approach to coaching, some individuals work better with a kick up the arse rather than an arm round the shoulder and vice versa.

 

 

[Babylon]

8 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

It's been over two years of Foxestalk discussing Demarai Gray's potential. We love a bit of this. Ndidi, Chilwell, Barnes, Lawrence, Thomas, Diabate, now Maddison, you name it. They're young, they must have potential. Right? 

 

But what does that actually mean? How do you decide who has it and who doesn't? Are you judging their ability now, in which case that's not really potential is it, or are you looking for something else about them that indicates they'll improve? 

 

I can't really mask my cynical nature, it comes from my firm belief that 99.9r% of this forum is full of shit (myself included) but I genuinely don't mean to just belittle everyone here I'm really curious to hear people's views. 

 

Seriously. What do you define as potential, who do you think has it, why do you think this way, are you simply repeating what everyone else thinks? Do you think Gray, Ndidi, Chilwell and Co have shown improvement? Do you think they've peaked? 

 

Do you simply think they MUST have potential because they're young and logical dictates you get better at things? 

 

Turn the football manager part of your brain off for a second (because let's be honest, football manager has gotten it wrong about 20000% more than they've gotten it right) and just think in real world terms. 

 

Ashley Chambers was one of our favourites, he had bags of potential, he's now in non league. Thracian saw potential in Alan Sheehan, he's currently in league two. Andy King came in to the first team largely without much fanfare and three league titles later is a club legend. 

 

Nobody ever predicted that one (Thracian doesn't count, when you claim every single member of the academy team is bound for greatness you can't take credit when one actually comes through) so what did King have about him that Levi Porter didn't? 

 

I'm not trying to make any point here specifically, I really am just asking the question. What does potential mean to you? 

 

adjective: having or showing the capacity to develop into something in the future.

noun: Latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness"

[David Guiza]

Always reminds me of when we signed Tricky Trevor Benjamin. I'm sure Peter Taylor used the word potential about 48 times. Ah, the glory days http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/leicester_city/830118.stm

[Finnegan]

22 minutes ago, Gerard said:

having or showing the capacity to develop into something in the future.

latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness.

 

Source: Dictionary

 

15 minutes ago, Babylon said:

adjective: having or showing the capacity to develop into something in the future.

noun: Latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness"

 

Cool. Nice one. 

[Harry - LCFC]

5 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

 

Cool. Nice one. 

They're right though.

 

The second line from Gerard is probably the most succinct way one could put it. That's what I had in mind when I read your title but I wouldn't have been able to articulate it as well as that.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

 

Cool. Nice one. 

 

Was it so hard to look it up for yourself?

[Izzy]

In my line of work, I often ask the question to managers and leaders in business “What % of your potential are you currently delivering in your work?”

 

I’ve asked this question hundreds of times to groups and the average answer is ALWAYS about 65%. People are working flat out but carry a sense that they’ve got more to offer in terms of creativity, ideas and solutions.

 

In football we often see glimpses of what players are capable of and ask ourselves “why can’t they do this every game, week in and week out?”

 

Some players I would suggest have already reached the peak of their potential and will never get any ‘better’ (if anything they’re now declining) I’d include the likes of Simpson, Wes,  Shinji, Fuchs etc here.

 

For the younger players mentioned, it’s difficult to measure what % of their potential they’re currently playing at. If they train hard, are coached well, look after themselves and continuously improve, they should eventually reach their potential (whenever that is)

 

The frustrating bit as a supporter is seeing a clearly gifted player who never reaches their potential for whatever reason. The best example I can give is Julian Joachim. I thought he could have been a world beater.

[Vacamion]

 

If defining potential was easy everyone would do it, but I’ll have a go...

 

Writing off Demarai Gray because of a stagnant 3/4 of a season in an inconsistent team is daft.  However much he’s been frustrating recently, I think he’s still worth us investing our hopes, but you would think he would want to show more glimpses of the right attitude, even if he is struggling with his game, because he looks like he can’t be bothered recently.

 

Harry Maguire makes mistakes but you can see potential greatness there. And he tries. Well worth an England spot, given the competition.

 

I hope Chillwell realises he is far from the end product and needs to work on his game.   Can’t fault his effort, but there is a real fear that he isn’t a good enough defender and yet suffers from a poor end product going forward.

 

I am impressed with Hamza, but he’s behind Wilf in the queue as a DM. Hamza should get some game time for the rest of the season, which should do him good.

 

Speaking of Wilf - anyone else his age, we’d be talking about giving him time to develop, to reach his potential, but we expect perfection, because he was bought, not developed here.  He has been immense. He has potential to be even better.  We would struggle without him. Yet he gets slagged off by some in here.

 

By the way, it’s  also daft to write off older players because they are over 30.

 

 

 

 

[Donut]

Potential is someone with the raw materials to be a good player in the position he plays in, but doesn't utilise these properly, or not on a consistent basis yet.

 

Its someone who is learning how to take these skills and attributes they have and convert them into a playing style that is effective.

 

In order for a player to realise their potential, they also have to be determined enough to improve their weaknesses AND strengths, whilst also being able to handle playing at the top level and everything that goes with it.

 

I also think that at the lower age groups, certain players will stand out and do brilliantly because they have one, or two attributes that are significantly better than those of the people around them.

 

But this is only at that age.

 

When they move up the levels and no longer have this advantage, they are found out. Probably just another slight reason as to why some of the potential players who don't attract much attention go on to have good careers

[Vacamion]

5 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

 

The frustrating bit as a supporter is seeing a clearly gifted player who never reaches their potential for whatever reason. The best example I can give is Julian Joachim. I thought he could have been a world beater.

 

Me too.

[Babylon]

28 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

 

Cool. Nice one. 

I started to write out an answer but it's far too nuanced to answer properly in 10 minutes.

 

Each person will weigh things up differently. But at most simple it's an internal calculation of; current ability (or flashes of), age and current level.

 

You could make that even more complicated by adding in; players mentality, current circumstances.

 

 

 

Edited 2 May 2018 by Babylon

[sacreblueits442]

....a good example would be Vardy. He was purchased from Fleetwood (non League) and came to us for a stated £1m. someone obviously saw potential in his ability. His first season lead to supporters questioning his acquisition and felt it would be wise to offload him if possible. He spent the close season working on his game and was a different player the next season. The fact that he had the will to work on his game and nous to realise that a fundamental change to his playing style and perception of how he could add value to the team showed his awareness of his shortcomings.

  There are numerous players out there who are not playing in league football who are more skilled that players playing professionally, the difference is a lack of drive and mental  strength which stopped them from progressing and attaining their potential.

[shen]

I get what you mean Finners.

Potential in football linguo is a fluff term and just tells you that a young player has skills, attributes or talent which are judged to be sufficient to succeed at a high level.

Obviously, the uncertainty around mental capacity, application, luck and circumstances makes potential a rather meaningless term.

Edited 2 May 2018 by shen

[Finnegan]

22 minutes ago, Harry - LCFC said:

They're right though.

 

The second line from Gerard is probably the most succinct way one could put it. That's what I had in mind when I read your title but I wouldn't have been able to articulate it as well as that.

 

I'd like to think it was fairly obvious I didn't want the word explained to me. 

 

I'm pretty confident both Gerard and Babylon thought they were being hilarious. 

 

I'm well aware it's a very difficult thing to really define and that nobody rreeaaally has an answer. 

 

I'm just curious as to what people think. It's accepted as a given that Gray has potential whilst I personally think it's rubbish. He's got a crap attitude and hasn't really offered up any improvement since he arrived. 

 

Meanwhile Ndidi by and large has grown more and more in to his role. 

[shen]

1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

 

I'd like to think it was fairly obvious I didn't want the word explained to me. 

 

I'm pretty confident both Gerard and Babylon thought they were being hilarious. 

 

I'm well aware it's a very difficult thing to really define and that nobody rreeaaally has an answer. 

 

I'm just curious as to what people think. It's accepted as a given that Gray has potential whilst I personally think it's rubbish. He's got a crap attitude and hasn't really offered up any improvement since he arrived. 

 

Meanwhile Ndidi by and large has grown more and more in to his role. 

With regards to Gray, his performance against Palace was akin to Schlupp's in that drubbing against Porto. Was late recovering for the first two goals and stopped dead in his tracks as soon as he saw Loftus-Cheek receive the ball for the third. Very poor work rate and he's shown precious little going forward lately.

[Alf Bentley]

"Potential" is mainly used about young players. We tend to be impressed that a young player has enough good qualities to play in the first team and do some good stuff, even if he has weaknesses.

From our position of little knowledge (compared to pro sportspeople), we hope or assume that he will learn to do other good stuff - or to do the same good stuff more consistently.

This is how the average fan sees potential, I think - and it's based on little real knowledge or understanding of the individual player, or of what determines the ability to improve performance.

 

Vardy is the player whose performance has improved the most since first team debut - and he wasn't young. Likewise, I'd say that Schmeichel improved a lot over recent seasons....until this one!

 

Ndidi had not played in such a competitive league before. He rapidly showed the ability to adapt, realising latent potential - through natural ability and/or competitive training, not coaching, I'd guess, as he adapted so quickly. Whether he has the potential to develop other attributes of his game (passing, shooting), who knows? For now, he has plateaued as a very good PL defensive midfielder with certain limitations. 

 

Chilwell seems to make a step up in certain games - then a big step back in others, maybe partly due to fluctuations in confidence. He can also be inconsistent during games, which might suggest a lack of concentration. I imagine that both confidence and concentration can be improved for some players (not all), but that concentration would be more problematic.

 

I don't see any sign of Gray having potential beyond that he had when he first appeared: the ability to beat players and occasionally do something spectacular. He may already be at his peak potential, that of a good Championship winger or PL impact sub. Diabate has similar raw skill, but greater team awareness (but probably already had that, so jury's out on his potential - too soon to say).       

[Babylon]

12 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 It's accepted as a given that Gray has potential whilst I personally think it's rubbish. He's got a crap attitude and hasn't really offered up any improvement since he arrived. 

 

Meanwhile Ndidi by and large has grown more and more in to his role. 

I doubt you'd find anyone on here that didn't think N'didi had the potential to go much further in the game than Gray. There are lots of different levels; potential to be a solid premier league player, potential to be a top class one, potential to make nothing of their career with a shit attitude and end up in league two. There is no problem with the word if there is an attempt at some sort of explanation to go with it.

[Finnegan]

Just now, Babylon said:

I doubt you'd find anyone on here that didn't think N'didi had the potential to go much further in the game than Gray. There are lots of different levels; potential to be a solid premier league player, potential to be a top class one, potential to make nothing of their career with a shit attitude and end up in league two. There is no problem with the word if there is an attempt at some sort of explanation to go with it.

 

I'm not suggesting I have any problem with the word. 

 

There really aren't any right or wrong answers (other than trying to get rep points for being "hilarious" by quoting the dictionary) I'm just honestly curious and looking for a discussion about what it means  people. 

 

 

[Fox92]

People talk about potential with Maguire. He's 25.

[Finnegan]

1 minute ago, Fox92 said:

People talk about potential with Maguire. He's 25.

 

Is that a problem? 

 

Do you think potential has an age cap? 

 

Wasn't Vardy kinda old to be seen as a prospect with a lot of potential? 

 

I'm not being picky, I'm genuinely curious to hear your views. 

[the fox]

Potential means that you ain't done shit yet.