The "do they mean us?" thread pt 2

[Nalis]

Think their description of Iheanacho is very generous and their description of Ndidi doesnt quite give the full picture of his strengths and weakness, but yes, in general the future is promising.

[Guest]

Maybe a slight overstatement of Chilwell's ability - love him and he's having a great season but that description makes him sound like the complete fullback package - and imo he's got Iheanacho's strength and weakness the wrong way round. Nice to be recognised in a positive way though and you can't deny we've got some very talented young players at the club. Whether they fulfil their potential here is another matter, of course.

[ScouseFox]

would be a better article if it also included the minutes given to youth players. 

 

some of the clubs there are a bit falsely ranked, aren’t they? the 6 we have named include 4 who play most weeks and 2 who are massively making a case to start most weeks as well, and they’ve got people like angel gomes on the united section, who must’ve played for about 10 minutes one day and not been seen since. 

[The Quick Brown Fox]

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Edited 24 January 2019 by browniefox
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[Xen]

10 hours ago, Babylon said:

Chuck in Soyuncu as well... if these lads progress as we hope they will it's going to be great for the club.

Gray as well, who's only 22.

 

We really do have a lot to look forward to if these players continue to develop. If just a couple of them turn out like Chilwell has then we'll have done very well indeed.

 

And this doesn't even take into account the prospects we've got in the U23s. If it wasn't for injuries I think we would have seen one or two of them already earning PL gametime.

[Ric Flair]

50 minutes ago, Xen said:

Gray as well, who's only 22.

 

We really do have a lot to look forward to if these players continue to develop. If just a couple of them turn out like Chilwell has then we'll have done very well indeed.

 

And this doesn't even take into account the prospects we've got in the U23s. If it wasn't for injuries I think we would have seen one or two of them already earning PL gametime.

It is indeed looking very bright and is definitely the route i'm glad our club are going down but the only caveat to this is younger players have to be given more chances to learn from their mistakes and fulfil their potential but on the same hand not all of them are going to be good enough and it's that period where we are going to continue to give certain players chance after chance (possibly stretching a few years) before accepting they might not be good enough which will take a lot of patience and support from our fans. I hope we still continue to have a spine of experienced players in our side, they don't have to be in their 30's but just be mindful that leadership and experience is much to be cherished if we want to prosper amongst the top clubs at this level.

 

The way I envisage the next decade is we have some of the best training facilities and we move towards having one of the most renown academies in the country, possibly Europe. Everything else around that then feeds in to a dynamic first team. We have an exceptional scouting and recruitment network and the emphasis is on planning and vision. We sort of had this under Pearson to a degree and there are clubs like Ajax, Sevilla and most recently Monaco who have done this and that's what I can see we are trying to do. However, it is hard to get value for money being a PL club, we have so much TV money that it's made transfer prices ridiculous and we are as guilty as most since our title win for wasting it. To put together a leading academy and recruitment network is going to cross paths with Rudkin though who we all know might be resistant to what's needed to take us to the next level. If he was able to lead us to this then great but if not, then he needs replacing as it seems a huge wasted opportunity to be spending hundreds of millions of infrastructure but not putting in place the right calibre of management, directors and coaches that match this. It might be difficult to build the recruitment network without giving a top class candidate the role of Sporting Director (DOF) this seems to be a common occurrence of late, where by up and coming recruitment directors are moving clubs to become DOFs and scouts and analysts moving up the chain so whatever we do we need to plan for this if we want to really progress.

[Dames]

11 hours ago, Babylon said:

Chuck in Soyuncu as well... if these lads progress as we hope they will it's going to be great for the club.

I'm very hopeful of this, we do have a lot of good young players with a lot of potential on the books.

 

What I'm slightly worried about is that we are in big danger of becoming a feeder club to the top 6. No ambitious player wants to continually only challenge for mid table in the Premier League and I think this is why most fans are currently frustrated not just with the manager but the club in general. We are in a time where good cup runs are extremely possible as the 'bigger' teams don't take it seriously until the Semis and thats if they get there. We should at least as a club prioritise a good cup run and just see how far it gets us. Winning a trophy or two is a good way to keep your best players on the books.

[davieG]

5 minutes ago, Dames said:

I'm very hopeful of this, we do have a lot of good young players with a lot of potential on the books.

 

What I'm slightly worried about is that we are in big danger of becoming a feeder club to the top 6. No ambitious player wants to continually only challenge for mid table in the Premier League and I think this is why most fans are currently frustrated not just with the manager but the club in general. We are in a time where good cup runs are extremely possible as the 'bigger' teams don't take it seriously until the Semis and thats if they get there. We should at least as a club prioritise a good cup run and just see how far it gets us. Winning a trophy or two is a good way to keep your best players on the books.

Anyone below the top 5 will always be a feeder club it's always been that way albeit different top teams.

 

Just like the lower PL and Championship teams will be our feeder club.

 

It shouldn't stop you trying to improve though.

 

That's life.

[Dames]

Just now, davieG said:

Anyone below the top 5 will always be a feeder club it's always been that way albeit different top teams.

Very true but in more recent times the field has been levelled slightly in regards to finances. 10-15 years ago anyone outside the top teams couldn't offer players the financial packages that were on offer at the top clubs but thats all changed now. We could offer our best players similar amounts of money the top clubs are willing to pay them so after that it all boils down to ambition of both the player of the club.

 

You can be a first team regular at Leicester continually sitting around mid table not really challenging in the cups or you can go to one of the big clubs and try to force your way into the first team and challenge for trophies on several fronts. If Leicester as a club took the cups more seriously it would help us retain our best players as the club is showing ambition. Its all about mentality and currently the club has accepted a mentality of mediocrity in a time where we could be aiming much higher.

 

It would be different if the top 6 took the FA/League cups seriously but they don't unless they find themselves in the semis and that leaves opportunity open for the clubs just behind them to really go and win something. Its not just a problem at Leicester it seems as if many of the chasing pack have decided that mid table Premier League is better than a cup run because of the finanaces. The reality is that players don't care about club finances as long as they are getting paid its not an issue to them so they won't see finishing in top 10 as a legitimate ambition when Man City or Chelsea are offering them the same amount of money as us but better possibilities in terms of trophies.

[Babylon]

15 minutes ago, Dames said:

I'm very hopeful of this, we do have a lot of good young players with a lot of potential on the books.

 

What I'm slightly worried about is that we are in big danger of becoming a feeder club to the top 6. No ambitious player wants to continually only challenge for mid table in the Premier League and I think this is why most fans are currently frustrated not just with the manager but the club in general. We are in a time where good cup runs are extremely possible as the 'bigger' teams don't take it seriously until the Semis and thats if they get there. We should at least as a club prioritise a good cup run and just see how far it gets us. Winning a trophy or two is a good way to keep your best players on the books.

Sadly there is nothing we can do about that. The pull of the champions league and the glamour and money of playing for a big club in huge games trumps winning a league cup.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

1 minute ago, Dames said:

Very true but in more recent times the field has been levelled slightly in regards to finances. 10-15 years ago anyone outside the top teams couldn't offer players the financial packages that were on offer at the top clubs but thats all changed now. We could offer our best players similar amounts of money the top clubs are willing to pay them so after that it all boils down to ambition of both the player of the club.

 

You can be a first team regular at Leicester continually sitting around mid table not really challenging in the cups or you can go to one of the big clubs and try to force your way into the first team and challenge for trophies on several fronts. If Leicester as a club took the cups more seriously it would help us retain our best players as the club is showing ambition. Its all about mentality and currently the club has accepted a mentality of mediocrity in a time where we could be aiming much higher.

 

It would be different if the top 6 took the FA/League cups seriously but they don't unless they find themselves in the semis and that leaves opportunity open for the clubs just behind them to really go and win something. Its not just a problem at Leicester it seems as if many of the chasing pack have decided that mid table Premier League is better than a cup run because of the finanaces. The reality is that players don't care about club finances as long as they are getting paid its not an issue to them so they won't see finishing in top 10 as a legitimate ambition when Man City or Chelsea are offering them the same amount of money as us but better possibilities in terms of trophies.

I dont think so to be honest.  Nobody sees a good league cup run as reason for joining a team

[Dames]

1 minute ago, Babylon said:

Sadly there is nothing we can do about that. The pull of the champions league and the glamour and money of playing for a big club in huge games trumps winning a league cup.

True but if the club is showing its going in the right direction by being ambitious it will be easier to swing it. You can have a good league cup/FA cup run and maybe win the thing. Next season you're in the Europa League why not go for that and win it. Season after that you're 2 trophys deep and now playing in the Champions League. There is a real winners mentality around the place and its much easier to convince your best players that its the right place to develop. The thing is this really isn't out of the realms of possibility for Leicester. It sure sounds a lot better than 'Well our ambition is to hopefully finish from 7th - 13th in the league because of money'.

 

Just now, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

I dont think so to be honest.  Nobody sees a good league cup run as reason for joining a team

You win the league cup and then you're playing in a european competition which Leicester would stand a very good chance of winning.

[Babylon]

3 minutes ago, Dames said:

True but if the club is showing its going in the right direction by being ambitious it will be easier to swing it. You can have a good league cup/FA cup run and maybe win the thing. Next season you're in the Europa League why not go for that and win it. Season after that you're 2 trophys deep and now playing in the Champions League. There is a real winners mentality around the place and its much easier to convince your best players that its the right place to develop. The thing is this really isn't out of the realms of possibility for Leicester. It sure sounds a lot better than 'Well our ambition is to hopefully finish from 7th - 13th in the league because of money'.

We won the league and got the the quarters of the champions league and players couldn't wait to join a top 4 team.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

1 minute ago, Dames said:

 

You win the league cup and then you're playing in a european competition which Leicester would stand a very good chance of winning.

I dont know about a very good chance of winning, but yes, being in the Europa league is definitely a good thing for us

 

I'm still not of the opinion that we didnt respect the cups particularly, but thats another argument I suppose

 

Securing top half premier league status is something we still havent quite done yet and something I think the club sees as important for long term ambition which I agree with them on.   Think atm having the appaearance of a top half premier league team is probably more important for how attractive we are in the market than a cup run

 

Not saying cup runs arent important, although, again, I'm not of the opinion we threw the cups away this season

 

 

[Dames]

Just now, Babylon said:

We won the league and got the the quarters of the champions league and players couldn't wait to join a top 4 team.

Thats due to a number of things. Kante was the only real star player to move on that season but he never really wanted to play for Leicester in the first place.

 

Drinkwater left the season after which besides the Champions League run was a season we spent flirting with relegation as well as poor cup runs at that point you're thinking as a player well my stock is high and Leicester's is dropping like a lead balloon so i'll get out whilst I can.

 

Mahrez left 2 seasons after - granted rumours are he wanted out but he still signed a new deal as the owners convinced him about ambition but then the reality of the situation hit and he was too good of a player to be playing for mid table.

 

We've got a good core of young players now which is down in part to Puel but as a club to keep these players and not become a mid table feeder club we have to have some sort of ambition. You can start small with the cups and gradually scale it up but you have to start somewhere - players will be easier to convince if they see the club is working towards something. At the minute the only ambition is Premier League prize money and in a players eyes thats less legitmate than a League cup medal no matter how much you try to spin it.

 

I know you'll throw the arguement about the new training ground and facilities etc which is all good and well but that ties into just playing for a league position for prize money to clear off debts.. not ambitious, not as ambitious as we could be.

[ealingfox]

12 minutes ago, Dames said:

True but if the club is showing its going in the right direction by being ambitious it will be easier to swing it. You can have a good league cup/FA cup run and maybe win the thing. Next season you're in the Europa League why not go for that and win it. Season after that you're 2 trophys deep and now playing in the Champions League. There is a real winners mentality around the place and its much easier to convince your best players that its the right place to develop. The thing is this really isn't out of the realms of possibility for Leicester. It sure sounds a lot better than 'Well our ambition is to hopefully finish from 7th - 13th in the league because of money'.

 

You win the league cup and then you're playing in a european competition which Leicester would stand a very good chance of winning.

 

A very good chance of winning the Europa League? Delusional.

 

How is any manager meant to get along with this sort of attitude, let alone Puel?

[Ric Flair]

Winning the league and getting to the QF of the Champions League as a one off isn't enough to keep our players, if anything it makes them more desirable and they know they can get more money and a prestigious move. It's better off we continue to be fairly shit and the likes of Ndidi, Maguire, Maddison and Chilwell stay put.

[Dames]

Just now, ealingfox said:

 

A very good chance of winning the Europa League? Delusional.

 

How is any manager meant to get along with this sort of attitude, let alone Puel?

What so as a fan I can't be optimistic or ambitious? Am I saying we should be winning it or he is sacked? No i'm not. I didn't even mention Puel to be honest.

 

I'm saying with the players we have and the potential they have we do have a very good chance of winning it if we get there and hold on to those players. It would be 2 years down the line from now and if we kept those players i'd expect some of them to be very good.

 

Are you really trying to tell me Leicester aren't as good of a club/team as some of the riff raff you get in the Europa League?

 

We aren't playing with Danny Tiatto and Patrick Kisnorbo as our starting CM's anymore and we aren't flirting with administration either. We are allowed to have a degree of realistic ambition without it being labelled as delusional to be honest.

[Babylon]

3 minutes ago, Dames said:

Thats due to a number of things. Kante was the only real star player to move on that season but he never really wanted to play for Leicester in the first place.

 

Drinkwater left the season after which besides the Champions League run was a season we spent flirting with relegation as well as poor cup runs at that point you're thinking as a player well my stock is high and Leicester's is dropping like a lead balloon so i'll get out whilst I can.

 

Mahrez left 2 seasons after - granted rumours are he wanted out but he still signed a new deal as the owners convinced him about ambition but then the reality of the situation hit and he was too good of a player to be playing for mid table.

 

We've got a good core of young players now which is down in part to Puel but as a club to keep these players and not become a mid table feeder club we have to have some sort of ambition. You can start small with the cups and gradually scale it up but you have to start somewhere - players will be easier to convince if they see the club is working towards something. At the minute the only ambition is Premier League prize money and in a players eyes thats less legitmate than a League cup medal no matter how much you try to spin it.

 

I know you'll throw the arguement about the new training ground and facilities etc which is all good and well but that ties into just playing for a league position for prize money to clear off debts.. not ambitious, not as ambitious as we could be.

We're building a state of the art training ground and expanding the stadium, ambition isn't only shown on the pitch.

 

It doesn't matter what we do if Man City, Man U etc come calling then players are 95% of the time going to want to leave, cup runs or no cup runs. The chances of us actually winning a trophy are slim, without a slice of luck we are probably going to have to face at least two top 6 clubs. If it was easy we'd have more than three in the bag in 135 years. So realistically you'd be actually lucky to get to one semi or one final a decade for a club of our size and budget. Spurs are bigger and better than us and can't win a trophy.

 

This is a LONG TERM project, not measured in one or two years. Players you like are going to get sold unless the owners pump in £500m. We can only aim for natural growth on and off the pitch, which is difficult to do at the same time as money is key in both. Our short term aim is to keep the club steady whilst we grow off the field, then we will want to grow on the field after that.

[Xen]

18 minutes ago, Dames said:

You win the league cup and then you're playing in a european competition which Leicester would stand a very good chance of winning.

We'd have a chance of winning, sure, but I wouldn't put it as a 'very good' chance.

 

The Champions League groups always has at least one 'group of death' meaning a big team gets knocked down into the Europa (and often gets to the final at least). This year, the Ro32 contains - among others - Arsenal, Chelsea, Sevilla, Valencia, Bayer Leverkusen etc. We'd have a reasonable chance at progressing in all games, but it's far from clear-cut. If we were in the Ro32 this season our odds of winning the whole thing would be somewhere around 33-1 at best,

 

 

Optimism is great - and I'd love us to have another European cup run. Fwiw I think we'd probably do well and get to the QFs again. But there are very, very few teams who could be confident of having a 'very good chance of winning' the whole thing.

[mozartfox]

10 hours ago, browniefox said:

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Totally agree.

[Babylon]

3 minutes ago, Dames said:

What so as a fan I can't be optimistic or ambitious? Am I saying we should be winning it or he is sacked? No i'm not. I didn't even mention Puel to be honest.

 

I'm saying with the players we have and the potential they have we do have a very good chance of winning it if we get there and hold on to those players. It would be 2 years down the line from now and if we kept those players i'd expect some of them to be very good.

 

Are you really trying to tell me Leicester aren't as good of a club/team as some of the riff raff you get in the Europa League?

 

We aren't playing with Danny Tiatto and Patrick Kisnorbo as our starting CM's anymore and we aren't flirting with administration either. We are allowed to have a degree of realistic ambition without it being labelled as delusional to be honest.

It took Marseille 19 games to get to the final, not a chance in hell the club would commit to a challenge to win that. Our squad isn't anywhere near good enough to take on that battle whilst remaining competitive in the league.

 

Ambition is fine, when tempered with realism... thinking we can win a cup, win the europa and get into the champions league is not that. We struggle to beat bottom half teams at the moment, as do the clubs around us.

[Dames]

Just now, Babylon said:

We're building a state of the art training ground and expanding the stadium, ambition isn't only shown on the pitch.

 

It doesn't matter what we do if Man City, Man U etc come calling then players are 95% of the time going to want to leave, cup runs or no cup runs. The chances of us actually winning a trophy are slim, without a slice of luck we are probably going to have to face at least two top 6 clubs. If it was easy we'd have more than three in the bag in 135 years. So realistically you'd be actually lucky to get to one semi or one final a decade for a club of our size and budget. Spurs are bigger and better than us and can't win a trophy.

 

This is a LONG TERM project, not measured in one or two years. Players you like are going to get sold unless the owners pump in £500m. We can only aim for natural growth on and off the pitch, which is difficult to do at the same time as money is key in both. Our short term aim is to keep the club steady whilst we grow off the field, then we will want to grow on the field after that.

I hear you honestly and I do understand your point.

 

There is a long term project in place and I accept that its good but at the same time there is no reason we can't be ambitious in the short term either? Play your full strength teams in the cup - see how far you go instead of just treating it as second rate. We aren't the only team guilty of this, almost all the teams in the league are. In recent times these cups have become more winnable because of the distain they are treated with by bigger clubs until the latter stages. You used Spurs as an example but they are one of the teams that treat the cups as second rate also.

 

I know players are going to get sold but my point is that they are short sighted what we don't want happening is all of our best players constantly jumping ship leaving us in a state of constant transition like Southampton who have slowly been sliding down the league for years now whilst selling their best players every season. Giving the players some short term ambitions is giving them something to aim for and believe in, no player is going to want to play with the aim of clearing a training ground debt, you don't get a medal for that. As soon as we slip into that Southampton mentality its going to be much harder to break no matter how good our facilities are.

 

[Dames]

3 minutes ago, Babylon said:

It took Marseille 19 games to get to the final, not a chance in hell the club would commit to a challenge to win that. Our squad isn't anywhere near good enough to take on that battle whilst remaining competitive in the league.

 

Ambition is fine, when tempered with realism... thinking we can win a cup, win the europa and get into the champions league is not that. We struggle to beat bottom half teams at the moment, as do the clubs around us.

We do struggle but with a few changes tactically and maybe another body or two and suddenly we won't be struggling.

 

We have a good base with a lot of young players with a lot of potential. If that potential is realised in 2 years time these players will be very good players and capable of winning that competition. I'm not saying right now the way things are they would win it but with the potential that is there we can be aiming higher. My argument is that we have to start being as ambitious on the pitch as we are off it with the facilities and it will be easier to convince these players to stay.

 

Financially we can compete with the big teams in terms of wages now so the only thing that could hold us back is on the pitch ambition.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dames said:

We do struggle but with a few changes tactically and maybe another body or two and suddenly we won't be struggling.

 

We have a good base with a lot of young players with a lot of potential. If that potential is realised in 2 years time these players will be very good players and capable of winning that competition. I'm not saying right now the way things are they would win it but with the potential that is there we can be aiming higher. My argument is that we have to start being as ambitious on the pitch as we are off it with the facilities and it will be easier to convince these players to stay.

 

Financially we can compete with the big teams in terms of wages now so the only thing that could hold us back is on the pitch ambition.

I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment personally. We can do better than we are currently, but getting a more ambitious/attack-minded manager in isn't going to change the reality that we're an upper mid-table club with a squad to match. Competing with the top 6 regularly isn't a simple question of ambition. To make it realistically possible we need to either spunk billions on players Man City style, which we can't afford and can go horribly wrong anyway, or go slowly and steadily with a focus on improving our infrastructure and developing young players - which is seemingly what we're trying.

 

I know we all want the club to develop and progress, none of us want to just float about from 8th-12th for all eternity, but it's not going to just happen overnight and setting European competitions as targets just isn't realistic for me. There needs to be a middle ground between 'self-deprecating, little old us, aren't we lucky to be top half' Leicester and 'we won the league, why aren't we top 6, we shouldn't have to compete with Watford and West Ham' Leicester.