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CosbehFox

The "do they mean us?" thread pt 2

By CosbehFox, in Leicester City Forum

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Dames

Dames

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Xen said:

We'd have a chance of winning, sure, but I wouldn't put it as a 'very good' chance.

 

The Champions League groups always has at least one 'group of death' meaning a big team gets knocked down into the Europa (and often gets to the final at least). This year, the Ro32 contains - among others - Arsenal, Chelsea, Sevilla, Valencia, Bayer Leverkusen etc. We'd have a reasonable chance at progressing in all games, but it's far from clear-cut. If we were in the Ro32 this season our odds of winning the whole thing would be somewhere around 33-1 at best,

 

 

Optimism is great - and I'd love us to have another European cup run. Fwiw I think we'd probably do well and get to the QFs again. But there are very, very few teams who could be confident of having a 'very good chance of winning' the whole thing.

Maybe I am being too optimistic but I imagine in 2 seasons time if this were to happen some of the players we have now will be very very good players. We'd had a team littered with internationals some of them England internationals and I imagine we would have added to the squad. Maybe I am optimistic in the thinking we'd keep all our best players but if we did and they kicked on like we think they would we would be better positioned for a crack at that cup. Probably more around 15-1 in reference to how you put it.

 

Some people are thinking I'm saying we should outright win it and theres no excuse if we don't and i'm 'delusional' but i'm not saying we should outright win it, what I'm saying is that we should have an ambition to have a go at the cups because they are winnable. Success breeds success and we are better positioned in terms of youth and potential coming through to capitalise on that success than we were when we won the League.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Guest said:

I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment personally. We can do better than we are currently, but getting a more ambitious/attack-minded manager in isn't going to change the reality that we're an upper mid-table club with a squad to match. Competing with the top 6 regularly isn't a simple question of ambition. To make it realistically possible we need to either spunk billions on players Man City style, which we can't afford and can go horribly wrong anyway, or go slowly and steadily with a focus on improving our infrastructure and developing young players - which is seemingly what we're trying.

 

I know we all want the club to develop and progress, none of us want to just float about from 8th-12th for all eternity, but it's not going to just happen overnight and setting European competitions as targets just isn't realistic for me. There needs to be a middle ground between 'self-deprecating, little old us, aren't we lucky to be top half' Leicester and 'we won the league, why aren't we top 6, we shouldn't have to compete with Watford and West Ham' Leicester.

I'm not saying we compete with the top 6 in the league outright but those top 6 teams are leaving gaps in cup competitions that we could exploit. This season for example realistically we could have beaten Man City this season to get in the Semis of the League Cup and then hopefully got passed Burton and we'd have been in the final. On our day we can beat anyone and we've proven that, on the flip side we've also proven we can lose to anyone too.

 

If i'm being honest I think teams like West Ham and Everton also have the players resources to do something similar but like us and many other teams in the league they are priortising a high league finish and the financial rewards from that. Currently that is leaving a gap that can be exploited - it might not be the case forever.

 

Also i'm not blaming Puel for any of this because the choice not to have a go at the cups is clearly a club decision and it has been for a while now.

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The Doctor

The Doctor

Posted
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1 hour ago, Dames said:

What so as a fan I can't be optimistic or ambitious? Am I saying we should be winning it or he is sacked? No i'm not. I didn't even mention Puel to be honest.

 

I'm saying with the players we have and the potential they have we do have a very good chance of winning it if we get there and hold on to those players. It would be 2 years down the line from now and if we kept those players i'd expect some of them to be very good.

 

Are you really trying to tell me Leicester aren't as good of a club/team as some of the riff raff you get in the Europa League?

 

We aren't playing with Danny Tiatto and Patrick Kisnorbo as our starting CM's anymore and we aren't flirting with administration either. We are allowed to have a degree of realistic ambition without it being labelled as delusional to be honest.

There's realistic ambition, and I'd say a run into the latter stages of the Europa League is, then there's unrealistic ambitions, which would include winning it - look at the next round:

 

Fenerbahçe v Zenit

Rapid Wien v Inter Milan
Slavia Praha v Genk
Krasnodar v Leverkusen
Rennes v Real Betis
Olympiacos v Dynamo Kyiv
Lazio v Sevilla 
BATE v Arsenal 
Galatasaray v Benfica

Viktoria Plzeň v Dinamo Zagreb
Club Brugge v Salzburg
Zürich v Napoli 
Malmö v Chelsea
Shakhtar Donetsk v Eintracht Frankfurt
Celtic v Valencia
Sporting CP v Villarreal

 

Straight away I see 4 sides (Chelsea, Arsenal, Napoli and Valencia) we're behind. Sevilla, Inter Milan, Leverkusen and Lazio you could make a good case for being ahead of us as well. 

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Dames

Dames

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Babylon said:

You lack ambition.

Wouldn't call that a lack of ambition I just think a lot of Leicester fans are naturally inclined to be pessimistic and therefore see posts like mine and think they are completely outrageous.

 

34 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

There's realistic ambition, and I'd say a run into the latter stages of the Europa League is, then there's unrealistic ambitions, which would include winning it - look at the next round:

 

Fenerbahçe v Zenit

Rapid Wien v Inter Milan
Slavia Praha v Genk
Krasnodar v Leverkusen
Rennes v Real Betis
Olympiacos v Dynamo Kyiv
Lazio v Sevilla 
BATE v Arsenal 
Galatasaray v Benfica

Viktoria Plzeň v Dinamo Zagreb
Club Brugge v Salzburg
Zürich v Napoli 
Malmö v Chelsea
Shakhtar Donetsk v Eintracht Frankfurt
Celtic v Valencia
Sporting CP v Villarreal

 

Straight away I see 4 sides (Chelsea, Arsenal, Napoli and Valencia) we're behind. Sevilla, Inter Milan, Leverkusen and Lazio you could make a good case for being ahead of us as well. 

I was talking about in 2 years time when realistically if we went and won a cup next season and got into the competition that way a lot of the younger players we have now would have improved (Provided we kept ahold of them which cup wins would help with).

 

Under Puel we've beaten both Chelsea and Arsenal, in the past we've beaten Sevilla who have won the competition multiple times - we can beat anyone on our day but as i've mentioned on the flip side of things we've proven we can lose to almost anyone as well.

 

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Ric Flair

Ric Flair

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Babylon said:

It took Marseille 19 games to get to the final, not a chance in hell the club would commit to a challenge to win that. Our squad isn't anywhere near good enough to take on that battle whilst remaining competitive in the league.

 

Ambition is fine, when tempered with realism... thinking we can win a cup, win the europa and get into the champions league is not that. We struggle to beat bottom half teams at the moment, as do the clubs around us.

The only way we somehow do that is by winning the rotation roulette every time we'd play in the league or cup, it's very difficult. Is that 19 games including qualifying rounds or group games and knockout games? Frightening isn't it, is that why we nearly got relegated when getting through 10 games in the CL? It does make you question what the point of it all is? Why do we care so much about this thankless and pointless sport? I'm gonna tell the missus i'm packing it in....

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Babylon

Babylon

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1 minute ago, Ric Flair said:

The only way we somehow do that is by winning the rotation roulette every time we'd play in the league or cup, it's very difficult. Is that 19 games including qualifying rounds or group games and knockout games? Frightening isn't it, is that why we nearly got relegated when getting through 10 games in the CL? It does make you question what the point of it all is? Why do we care so much about this thankless and pointless sport? I'm gonna tell the missus i'm packing it in....

I presume they were in the opening rounds. I just looked at who was in the final and counted the games, it's absolutely mental. If you're a Liverpool or Man City you'll have the quality to rest players in both competitions without it taking too much of a toll. But for your middle of the road club it could be impossible almost.

 

I'm a Leicester fan, it's never been about winning trophies particularly for me, they were always a glorious bonus. I'm just happy not having owners that don't treat us like shit, having a team that's in the top division and a club I can be proud of.

 

Growing up I only knew us in the second division, getting promoted seemed like an impossibility and good football the reserve of teams I watched in the FA Cup final, or the odd Division One team that turned up at ours in the cup. Perhaps that's why I'm far more patient when it comes to demanding things from the team.

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Xen

Xen

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26 minutes ago, Babylon said:

I presume they were in the opening rounds. I just looked at who was in the final and counted the games, it's absolutely mental. If you're a Liverpool or Man City you'll have the quality to rest players in both competitions without it taking too much of a toll. But for your middle of the road club it could be impossible almost.

 

I'm a Leicester fan, it's never been about winning trophies particularly for me, they were always a glorious bonus. I'm just happy not having owners that don't treat us like shit, having a team that's in the top division and a club I can be proud of.

 

Growing up I only knew us in the second division, getting promoted seemed like an impossibility and good football the reserve of teams I watched in the FA Cup final, or the odd Division One team that turned up at ours in the cup. Perhaps that's why I'm far more patient when it comes to demanding things from the team.

Marseille came 5th in the league and entered in the 3rd qualifying round, same round as Everton for finishing 7th.

 

So 2 legs against Belgian side Oostende, 2 against Slovenian side Domzale in the playoff round, their 6 group games included trips to Portugal, Austria and Turkey. Followed by home and away legs in Portugal, Spain, Germany and Austria (again) before the final at relatively local Lyon. 19 games in total, as you said.

 

It's a big ask for our relatively small squad to handle that on top of a league campaign (and cups). Marseille were fairly fortunate in that they were quite central to most of their draws - if we got drawn against Astana in Kazakhstan, Maccabi Tel Aviv in Israel and Lokomotiv Moscow, for instance, we'd be looking at an insane amount of travelling just for those 3 fixtures.

 

 

Much rather we show consistency in the league (and domestic cups) than focus on European tours which end with us playing the likes of Millwall in the Championship the year after.

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Ric Flair

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56 minutes ago, Babylon said:

I presume they were in the opening rounds. I just looked at who was in the final and counted the games, it's absolutely mental. If you're a Liverpool or Man City you'll have the quality to rest players in both competitions without it taking too much of a toll. But for your middle of the road club it could be impossible almost.

 

I'm a Leicester fan, it's never been about winning trophies particularly for me, they were always a glorious bonus. I'm just happy not having owners that don't treat us like shit, having a team that's in the top division and a club I can be proud of.

 

Growing up I only knew us in the second division, getting promoted seemed like an impossibility and good football the reserve of teams I watched in the FA Cup final, or the odd Division One team that turned up at ours in the cup. Perhaps that's why I'm far more patient when it comes to demanding things from the team.

Yeah it's a massive ask, probably one we could have coped better with in the last 2 seasons where we had a huge squad (although not necessarily full of the right talent) but as we move towards are more compact squad, any ambitions of getting in to Europe and then winning it are a pipe dream as it's brutal. It would surely give our promising academy players some first team football though, if nothing else. As a fan, i'd take the experience of getting there even if it was via qualifying rounds but if we honestly think we are going to put out our strongest side for an extra 10-15 games then fans are off their nut. It's one thing demanding your manager go full strength for an extra couple of latter stage cup games in the hope of a cup final day out and possible silverware but even I wouldn't think it's possible for a core lot of our team playing 60+ games. I also wouldn't want to us to go and sign 6+ extra players for the off chance we go deep in to a Europa League run but it does leave you feeling it's a strange existence being a medium sized club. You want success and to get in to Europe but then when Europe is secured, you ideally could do without it.

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KingsX

KingsX

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9 hours ago, Dames said:

 players will be easier to convince if they see the club is working towards something. At the minute the only ambition is Premier League prize money and in a players eyes thats less legitmate than a League cup medal no matter how much you try to spin it.

 

The idea that “winning trophies” is highly motivating to players is common here (including posters as thoughtful as yourself).  But that sentiment is a projection of fans’ own feelings onto the players.

 

Fans care about tradition, entertainment, and reflected glory.  Players care about money, fame, and the likelihood of being noticed (by big European clubs and their national teams).

 

PL, EL and CL trophies fit the bill for both groups.  Domestic cups offer no money and only domestic prestige.  Meaningful to fans … less so to players and clubs.

 

A cup gets you European football, so that should be a carrot for players.  And if players cared enough that League or FA cups made a difference where they signed, clubs would also care.  But even Championship clubs rotate, and big clubs play their reserves until the semis.

 

The financial incentives killing the cups will not be denied.  What clubs need to build is long-term reputation and success, and in in this age of PL money, the EFL and probably FA Cups actually work against that.  I‘ll post a new General Sport topic on that view.  Get some discussion/argument if eyes don’t completely glaze over.

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Dames

Dames

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6 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Yeah it's a massive ask, probably one we could have coped better with in the last 2 seasons where we had a huge squad (although not necessarily full of the right talent) but as we move towards are more compact squad, any ambitions of getting in to Europe and then winning it are a pipe dream as it's brutal. It would surely give our promising academy players some first team football though, if nothing else. As a fan, i'd take the experience of getting there even if it was via qualifying rounds but if we honestly think we are going to put out our strongest side for an extra 10-15 games then fans are off their nut. It's one thing demanding your manager go full strength for an extra couple of latter stage cup games in the hope of a cup final day out and possible silverware but even I wouldn't think it's possible for a core lot of our team playing 60+ games. I also wouldn't want to us to go and sign 6+ extra players for the off chance we go deep in to a Europa League run but it does leave you feeling it's a strange existence being a medium sized club. You want success and to get in to Europe but then when Europe is secured, you ideally could do without it.

I hear this and also what Babs is saying but aren’t there talks of reducing down the  amount of games in the Europa League within the next few years? Might go some way to alleviating some of the concerns about too many games. 

 

Its never going to be a reality because Clubs will always prioritise the League above anything else but that mentality is leaving a massive gap in the cups to be exploited and as a fan you’re dying for your club to be the one that says ‘F it, we are gunna try and win the thing’ instead of ‘Put the reserves out, we’ve got Cardiff at home 3 days after and we need to be at full strength.’

 

 

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ScouseFox

ScouseFox

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9 hours ago, The Doctor said:

There's realistic ambition, and I'd say a run into the latter stages of the Europa League is, then there's unrealistic ambitions, which would include winning it - look at the next round:

 

Fenerbahçe v Zenit

Rapid Wien v Inter Milan
Slavia Praha v Genk
Krasnodar v Leverkusen
Rennes v Real Betis
Olympiacos v Dynamo Kyiv
Lazio v Sevilla 
BATE v Arsenal 
Galatasaray v Benfica

Viktoria Plzeň v Dinamo Zagreb
Club Brugge v Salzburg
Zürich v Napoli 
Malmö v Chelsea
Shakhtar Donetsk v Eintracht Frankfurt
Celtic v Valencia
Sporting CP v Villarreal

 

Straight away I see 4 sides (Chelsea, Arsenal, Napoli and Valencia) we're behind. Sevilla, Inter Milan, Leverkusen and Lazio you could make a good case for being ahead of us as well. 

i think the majority of those sides would be favourites against us. probably only be favs to qualify against prague, genk, krasnodar, brugge and malmo, for me. 

 

oh and celtic. 

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The Doctor

The Doctor

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4 minutes ago, ScouseFox said:

i think the majority of those sides would be favourites against us. probably only be favs to qualify against prague, genk, krasnodar, brugge and malmo, for me. 

 

oh and celtic. 

I don't know, Fenerbache are using Slimani, they can't be that good. 

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ScouseFox

ScouseFox

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1 minute ago, The Doctor said:

I don't know, Fenerbache are using Slimani, they can't be that good. 

so many of these europa league games are decided on who’s at home, though. i think we would probably lose to pretty much everyone in eastern europe, most our players don’t fancy it when we have to go to places like watford let alone spartak moscow or galatasaray. 

 

add in the fact that even if it was a last 16 tie or something, if it was a thursday night away game we would be taking the reserves so we could ensure we finished 12th instead of 14th in the league. 

 

 

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Dan LCFC

Dan LCFC

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11 hours ago, ealingfox said:

I make it at least 14 of those sides that would be justified in expecting to beat us over two legs.

In our current state even more than that for me. Genuinely think Salzburg would beat us over two legs.

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Dan LCFC

Dan LCFC

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9 hours ago, Xen said:

Marseille came 5th in the league and entered in the 3rd qualifying round, same round as Everton for finishing 7th.

 

So 2 legs against Belgian side Oostende, 2 against Slovenian side Domzale in the playoff round, their 6 group games included trips to Portugal, Austria and Turkey. Followed by home and away legs in Portugal, Spain, Germany and Austria (again) before the final at relatively local Lyon. 19 games in total, as you said.

 

It's a big ask for our relatively small squad to handle that on top of a league campaign (and cups). Marseille were fairly fortunate in that they were quite central to most of their draws - if we got drawn against Astana in Kazakhstan, Maccabi Tel Aviv in Israel and Lokomotiv Moscow, for instance, we'd be looking at an insane amount of travelling just for those 3 fixtures.

 

 

Much rather we show consistency in the league (and domestic cups) than focus on European tours which end with us playing the likes of Millwall in the Championship the year after.

Put us in their position I think Domzale bin us out. That is my genuine fear if we get to Europe. Fleetwood was a shambles and Newport was a demonstration that we hadn't really learnt from it. I worry we'd do the same again and receive a huge comeuppance.

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Ted Maul

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19 hours ago, The Doctor said:

There's realistic ambition, and I'd say a run into the latter stages of the Europa League is, then there's unrealistic ambitions, which would include winning it - look at the next round:

 

Fenerbahçe v Zenit

Rapid Wien v Inter Milan
Slavia Praha v Genk
Krasnodar v Leverkusen
Rennes v Real Betis
Olympiacos v Dynamo Kyiv
Lazio v Sevilla 
BATE v Arsenal 
Galatasaray v Benfica

Viktoria Plzeň v Dinamo Zagreb
Club Brugge v Salzburg
Zürich v Napoli 
Malmö v Chelsea
Shakhtar Donetsk v Eintracht Frankfurt
Celtic v Valencia
Sporting CP v Villarreal

 

Straight away I see 4 sides (Chelsea, Arsenal, Napoli and Valencia) we're behind. Sevilla, Inter Milan, Leverkusen and Lazio you could make a good case for being ahead of us as well. 

Some of the away days in there...

 

And some people would rather we didn't qualify lol

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