Sins of our fathers

[coolhandfox]

As much as the loss to Cardiff is annoying or down right depressing, I still think Puel is paying for the sins of Shakespeare and Ranieri, those sin being poor recruitment. He's had one summer and one summer budget to address the weakness in the squad and focus main on the defence for the now and the future.

 

We seemed to be link with a number of attacking talents but got only Maddison and a panic buy in Ghezzel at the end of the window. The club had little choice but to move on Ulloa, who top flight days were over, Slim, talented but supposedly a poor influence on the dressing room, and Musa, I once in a life time chance to recoup a fee.

 

Leaving us with in striking options;

Vardy  (Fantastic but clearly not fully fit)

Okazaki (We had he's best in 2015/16 and more than likely leaving in the summer

Nacho (Talent, but low on confidence and probably desire to make a impact.

 

Attacking Midfield;

Gray (Talented but a 1 good game in 5 player)

Albrighton (Grafter, Great crosser, team player)

Maddison (Talented, but finding his feet in the big league)

Ghezzel (New to the PL)

 

 

Looking at that list I'm not surprised, we are't banging them in against team sitting back and defending for there life's.

 

We have average squad hence we have average results

 

 

 

[H.a.r.r.y]

our back line is solid, probably one of the best we've had. it's just the rest of the team

[That_Dude]

I think he's first and foremost paying for his lack of charisma. Had he been a Pearson or Ranieri type in the press conferences, half of his mistakes would have been forgiven or at least indulged.

 

Never thought one could judge a manager on this basis, but it's actually possible.

[mozartfox]

1 minute ago, H.a.r.r.y said:

our back line is solid, probably one of the best we've had. it's just the rest of the team

That’s a fair comment.  That back 4 were all under 25.   creativity and goals is badly needed in the Summer. Said it once already in this thread, give Harvey a go and keep the wallet closed this window.

[David Hankey]

Football is all about scoring goals. Score goals and you'll win games, it's not rocket science. Our problem is we lack firepower and rely too much one one player.

Edited 29 December 2018 by David Hankey

[nettle]

4 minutes ago, That_Dude said:

I think he's first and foremost paying for his lack of charisma. Had he been a Pearson or Ranieri type in the press conferences, half of his mistakes would have been forgiven or at least indulged.

 

Never thought one could judge a manager on this basis, but it's actually possible.

It's not about charisma though is it the football being served up at home especially is shight and boring bit like his interviews, I think you'll find that might be his problem with some fans.

[Corky]

20 minutes ago, That_Dude said:

I think he's first and foremost paying for his lack of charisma. Had he been a Pearson or Ranieri type in the press conferences, half of his mistakes would have been forgiven or at least indulged.

 

Never thought one could judge a manager on this basis, but it's actually possible.

Pearson wasn't known for having charisma for a long time, can remember many debates on here about him either being dull or abrasive in press conferences. He seemed to be accused of the bizarre combination of being boring and arrogant.

 

Both men were popular initially because their results were good (and Pearson never won over a section of the fanbase despite the progress made). If Puel's results were better, the view of him would be different.

[lgfualol]

1 minute ago, Corky said:

Pearson wasn't known for having charisma for a long time, can remember many debates on here about him either being dull or abrasive in press conferences. He seemed to be accused of the bizarre combination of being boring and arrogant.

The difference is Puel has an accent which upsets our fans.

[l444ry]

Should rename this the Blame anything but Puel Room 101 thread.

[That_Dude]

19 hours ago, nettle said:

It's not about charisma though is it the football being served up at home especially is shight and boring bit like his interviews, I think you'll find that might be his problem with some fans.

There is the tenacious false idea, fueled by his tenure at Southampton under difficult circumstances, that Puel is defensive minded and prefers safe football to a riskier approach. Aka boring football. That couldn't be farther from the truth to anyone who took a bit of time to watch what he did in the french league. He favors attacking football and has a lot of love for flair players. Watch some games of Nice under his reign for example.

 

As far as I remember we just beat Manchester City at home and it was rather a thrilling game. We do have problems at breaking teams who come and sit deep, there is no denying it, but the blame can't be put solely on the manager. Maddison scores the pen and this forum would look a whole lot different. Some fans never backed him from the beginning and it's no coincidence that those are the same who call for his head after every single defeat. It's depressing.

 

I think that you can see his reign with two possible mindsets, either you'd still expect football from 2014 until 2016 then you're in for one hell of a disappointment. Or you put things in perspective. You'd take into account that our best players bar Vardy are gone and that the actual team will only reach its full potential in the next season(s), meaning that shite football performances are absolutely unavoidable before things start to click and suddenly the whole thing is more bearable.

 

If we slide and find ourselves in a relegation battle, then by all means sack him. But right now we're 8th with one of the youngest teams in the league and if this is a good enough reason to get rid of him, then we indeed have delusions of grandeur.

Edited 30 December 2018 by That_Dude

[That_Dude]

1 hour ago, Corky said:

Pearson wasn't known for having charisma for a long time, can remember many debates on here about him either being dull or abrasive in press conferences. He seemed to be accused of the bizarre combination of being boring and arrogant.

 

Both men were popular initially because their results were good (and Pearson never won over a section of the fanbase despite the progress made). If Puel's results were better, the view of him would be different.

But that's how most of people remember it right now, isn't it?

 

Puel steadied a sinking ship and we're actually 8th with half a season still on-going. Not that bad for a team which doesn't have the same ambitions as the top 6, I think. I was ready to write off two seasons (and still am) when he was signed because he had a huge amount of dirty work to do before things get really better. If the situation doesn't improve after that, he can get the boot.

Edited 29 December 2018 by That_Dude

[inckley fox]

44 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

As much as the loss to Cardiff is annoying or down right depressing, I still think Puel is paying for the sins of Shakespeare and Ranieri, those sin being poor recruitment. He's had one summer and one summer budget to address the weakness in the squad and focus main on the defence for the now and the future.

 

We seemed to be link with a number of attacking talents but got only Maddison and a panic buy in Ghezzel at the end of the window. The club had little choice but to move on Ulloa, who top flight days were over, Slim, talented but supposedly a poor influence on the dressing room, and Musa, I once in a life time chance to recoup a fee.

 

Leaving us with in striking options;

Vardy  (Fantastic but clearly not fully fit)

Okazaki (We had he's best in 2015/16 and more than likely leaving in the summer

Nacho (Talent, but low on confidence and probably desire to make a impact.

 

Attacking Midfield;

Gray (Talented but a 1 good game in 5 player)

Albrighton (Grafter, Great crosser, team player)

Maddison (Talented, but finding his feet in the big league)

Ghezzel (New to the PL)

 

 

Looking at that list I'm not surprised, we are't banging them in against team sitting back and defending for there life's.

 

We have average squad hence we have average results

By the same measure, he benefited from the excellent investment under Pearson. If you look at our other mid-table rivals over the past 12 months, I'm not sure they've had forwards with Vardy's goal-per-shot ratio, one of the world's most respected keepers, or even Morgan, Albrighton, Mahrez and the funds that came from selling Mahrez. I know there have been critics of Walsh's recruitment, but there's a reason why he was - until 2016 - the most revered recruiter in English football, and it's that he uncovered 200m worth of talent in Mahrez, Kante, Vardy and Drinkwater for just 7m. Pearson's green light was more dependable than Ranieri's, it's true, but that leaves a legacy.

 

Plus, Maguire was an excellent defender to inherit. Chilwell was already emerging. Ndidi was an integral part of the side and performing well. We shouldn't lower the bar just because Ranieri failed to replace Kante or deal with the title hangover, and because Shakespeare wasn't a proper manager. There were awful signings and Puel had to deal with them, but there were also excellent players, many of which had won the league 18 months earlier.

 

And you have to look at his investment too. Just as Shakespeare screwed up with Iheanacho, Silva and Iborra, but struck gold with Maguire, so has Puel done very well with Pereira (I'll pause before shaking any maracas over Maddison) but got it wrong with Diabate and, perhaps, Ghezzal among others. I'm optimistic about his younger acquisition, but let's not get carried away that our recruitment missteps are a thing of the past.

 

That said, I can't agree that the squad is weak. A lot of neutral pundits have pointed out that we have some very good options at our disposal and should, perhaps, be doing better on paper. I mean, we have Silva, Iborra, Evans, Soyuncu, Simpson and Iheanacho who can barely get a look-in, the luxury of sending Barnes and a new 17m signing out on loan. I sympathise with the need to off-load dead wood, but there's quality at our disposal.

 

Whether our style of football suits that quality is another matter.

[themightyfin]

1 hour ago, coolhandfox said:

As much as the loss to Cardiff is annoying or down right depressing, I still think Puel is paying for the sins of Shakespeare and Ranieri, those sin being poor recruitment. He's had one summer and one summer budget to address the weakness in the squad and focus main on the defence for the now and the future.

 

We seemed to be link with a number of attacking talents but got only Maddison and a panic buy in Ghezzel at the end of the window. The club had little choice but to move on Ulloa, who top flight days were over, Slim, talented but supposedly a poor influence on the dressing room, and Musa, I once in a life time chance to recoup a fee.

 

Leaving us with in striking options;

Vardy  (Fantastic but clearly not fully fit)

Okazaki (We had he's best in 2015/16 and more than likely leaving in the summer

Nacho (Talent, but low on confidence and probably desire to make a impact.

 

Attacking Midfield;

Gray (Talented but a 1 good game in 5 player)

Albrighton (Grafter, Great crosser, team player)

Maddison (Talented, but finding his feet in the big league)

Ghezzel (New to the PL)

 

 

Looking at that list I'm not surprised, we are't banging them in against team sitting back and defending for there life's.

 

We have average squad hence we have average results

 

 

 

A while new thread for this? Every point has been made 100 times over. Really?

[nettle]

43 minutes ago, That_Dude said:

There is the tenacious false idea, fueled by his tenure at Southampton under difficult circumstances, that Puel is defensive minded and prefers safe football to a riskier approach. Aka boring football. That couldn't be further from the truth to anyone who took a bit of time to watch what he did in the french league. He favors attacking football and has a lot of love for flair players. Watch some games of Nice under his reign for example.

 

As far as I remember we just beat Manchester City at home and it was rather a thrilling game. We do have problems at breaking teams who come and sit deep, there is no denying it, but the blame can't be put solely on the manager. Maddison scores the pen and this forum would look a whole lot different. Some fans never backed him from the beginning and it's no coincidence that those are the same who call for his head after every single defeat. It's depressing.

 

I think that you can see his reign with two possible mindsets, either you'd still expect football from 2014 until 2016 then you're in for one hell of a disappointment. Or you put things in perspective. You'd take into account that our best players bar Vardy are gone and that the actual team will only reach its full potential in the next season(s), meaning that shite football performances are absolutely unavoidable before things start to click and suddenly the whole thing is more bearable.

 

If we slide and find ourselves in a relegation battle, then by all means sack him. But right now we're 8th with one of the youngest teams in the league and if this is a good enough reason to get rid of him, then we indeed have delusions of grandeur.

I'm not asking us to repeat the premiership win but with the most expensive squad ever assembled in the history of the club I'd expect  us to be a bit more ambitious playing at home against shight sides. 

I just don't think Puel plays an open expansive game and is quite a defensive type of manager playing two holding midfielder's at home to Cardiff just seems a bit negative I'm my book.

[coolhandfox]

42 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

By the same measure, he benefited from the excellent investment under Pearson. If you look at our other mid-table rivals over the past 12 months, I'm not sure they've had forwards with Vardy's goal-per-shot ratio, one of the world's most respected keepers, or even Morgan, Albrighton, Mahrez and the funds that came from selling Mahrez. I know there have been critics of Walsh's recruitment, but there's a reason why he was - until 2016 - the most revered recruiter in English football, and it's that he uncovered 200m worth of talent in Mahrez, Kante, Vardy and Drinkwater for just 7m. Pearson's green light was more dependable than Ranieri's, it's true, but that leaves a legacy.

 

Plus, Maguire was an excellent defender to inherit. Chilwell was already emerging. Ndidi was an integral part of the side and performing well. We shouldn't lower the bar just because Ranieri failed to replace Kante or deal with the title hangover, and because Shakespeare wasn't a proper manager. There were awful signings and Puel had to deal with them, but there were also excellent players, many of which had won the league 18 months earlier.

 

And you have to look at his investment too. Just as Shakespeare screwed up with Iheanacho, Silva and Iborra, but struck gold with Maguire, so has Puel done very well with Pereira (I'll pause before shaking any maracas over Maddison) but got it wrong with Diabate and, perhaps, Ghezzal among others. I'm optimistic about his younger acquisition, but let's not get carried away that our recruitment missteps are a thing of the past.

 

That said, I can't agree that the squad is weak. A lot of neutral pundits have pointed out that we have some very good options at our disposal and should, perhaps, be doing better on paper. I mean, we have Silva, Iborra, Evans, Soyuncu, Simpson and Iheanacho who can barely get a look-in, the luxury of sending Barnes and a new 17m signing out on loan. I sympathise with the need to off-load dead wood, but there's quality at our disposal.

 

Whether our style of football suits that quality is another matter.

I think the squad is a middle table PL squad, which with a bit of extra quality in attacking area could do very well.

[coolhandfox]

17 minutes ago, themightyfin said:

A while new thread for this? Every point has been made 100 times over. Really?

Cool story bro.....

[inckley fox]

2 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

I think the squad is a middle table PL squad, which with a bit of extra quality in attacking area could do very well.

Is Barnes an option, or are you thinking a signing?

 

For me it's a squad which on a great year could sneak 6th, on a bad year could dip to 13th/14th. But I base that on absolutely nothing other than my own gut feeling.

[coolhandfox]

15 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

Is Barnes an option, or are you thinking a signing?

 

For me it's a squad which on a great year could sneak 6th, on a bad year could dip to 13th/14th. But I base that on absolutely nothing other than my own gut feeling.

Think we need a bit of x factor like an Anderson type player

[Captain...]

13 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

As much as the loss to Cardiff is annoying or down right depressing, I still think Puel is paying for the sins of Shakespeare and Ranieri, those sin being poor recruitment. He's had one summer and one summer budget to address the weakness in the squad and focus main on the defence for the now and the future.

 

We seemed to be link with a number of attacking talents but got only Maddison and a panic buy in Ghezzel at the end of the window. The club had little choice but to move on Ulloa, who top flight days were over, Slim, talented but supposedly a poor influence on the dressing room, and Musa, I once in a life time chance to recoup a fee.

 

Leaving us with in striking options;

Vardy  (Fantastic but clearly not fully fit)

Okazaki (We had he's best in 2015/16 and more than likely leaving in the summer

Nacho (Talent, but low on confidence and probably desire to make a impact.

 

Attacking Midfield;

Gray (Talented but a 1 good game in 5 player)

Albrighton (Grafter, Great crosser, team player)

Maddison (Talented, but finding his feet in the big league)

Ghezzel (New to the PL)

 

 

Looking at that list I'm not surprised, we are't banging them in against team sitting back and defending for there life's.

 

We have average squad hence we have average results

 

 

 

I disagree I think we have a fantastic squad, much better than Cardiff’s and Palace and Burnley and Fulham and Brighton. Yet we consistently underperform against these teams. We give them so much time to set up defensively that it nullifies our attackers, Vardy, Nacho, Okazaki are all good footballers but as soon as we pass backwards or sideways they are taken out the game because even Cardiff’s championship defence can get organised quickly and block the space in behind. 

 

You can can look at recruitment, maybe if we sign a couple of world class forwards we’ll do better, but we will still have the same problem if we play 4231 in this way. The best striker in the world will struggle if isolated against a set defence. Puel was considered a great tactician in France but ligue 1 is a different beast and you don’t have teams like Burnley and Cardiff who will defend for 90 minutes. We need to find a new approach for these games or it will be the same pattern, we’ll win some and we’ll lose some, but the losses will be so much more frustrating because we are just not learning.

 

In pre match chat I said we should try 433 against Cardiff play with the same formation and style we did beating Man City and Chelsea. Instead we go back to the predictable and easy to defend against formation.

[Freeman's Wharfer]

The problem is not the squad - any manager outside the top 6 bar maybe Everton and West Ham would love to have the likes of Maguire, Vardy, Ricardo, Ndidi, Chilwell and Schmeichel - it's how they're being set up.

 

You can say we lack creativity but I think that's more to do with the fact we never have enough offensive players on the pitch to make a difference going forward.

[SouthStandUpperTier]

8 minutes ago, Captain... said:

I disagree I think we have a fantastic squad, much better than Cardiff’s and Palace and Burnley and Fulham and Brighton. Yet we consistently underperform against these teams. We give them so much time to set up defensively that it nullifies our attackers, Vardy, Nacho, Okazaki are all good footballers but as soon as we pass backwards or sideways they are taken out the game because even Cardiff’s championship defence can get organised quickly and block the space in behind. 

 

You can can look at recruitment, maybe if we sign a couple of world class forwards we’ll do better, but we will still have the same problem if we play 4231 in this way. The best striker in the world will struggle if isolated against a set defence. Puel was considered a great tactician in France but ligue 1 is a different beast and you don’t have teams like Burnley and Cardiff who will defend for 90 minutes. We need to find a new approach for these games or it will be the same pattern, we’ll win some and we’ll lose some, but the losses will be so much more frustrating because we are just not learning.

 

In pre match chat I said we should try 433 against Cardiff play with the same formation and style we did beating Man City and Chelsea. Instead we go back to the predictable and easy to defend against formation.

Maybe we should have stuck with 4-3-3, but playing the same style against Cardiff as against Chelsea and Man City is unrealistic, nigh on impossible.

Edited 30 December 2018 by SouthStandUpperTier

[Deeg67]

14 hours ago, lgfualol said:

The difference is Puel has an accent which upsets our fans.

This is the elephant in the room which is ignored most of the time.  Much of the problem comes down to Puel being guilty of MWF*, which many fans will never forgive.

 

*Managing While French

[RumbleFox]

14 hours ago, That_Dude said:

I think he's first and foremost paying for his lack of charisma. Had he been a Pearson or Ranieri type in the press conferences, half of his mistakes would have been forgiven or at least indulged.

 

Never thought one could judge a manager on this basis, but it's actually possible.

I agree with this.  Whilst I am firmly in the "Puel In" camp and I don't mind his persona at all (he comes across as  very decent guy in my opinion) I do think he could help himself more with showing the fans a bit more "pashun".  It shouldn't matter but it does to some people.  X

[RumbleFox]

16 minutes ago, Captain... said:

I disagree I think we have a fantastic squad, much better than Cardiff’s and Palace and Burnley and Fulham and Brighton. Yet we consistently underperform against these teams. We give them so much time to set up defensively that it nullifies our attackers, Vardy, Nacho, Okazaki are all good footballers but as soon as we pass backwards or sideways they are taken out the game because even Cardiff’s championship defence can get organised quickly and block the space in behind. 

 

You can can look at recruitment, maybe if we sign a couple of world class forwards we’ll do better, but we will still have the same problem if we play 4231 in this way. The best striker in the world will struggle if isolated against a set defence. Puel was considered a great tactician in France but ligue 1 is a different beast and you don’t have teams like Burnley and Cardiff who will defend for 90 minutes. We need to find a new approach for these games or it will be the same pattern, we’ll win some and we’ll lose some, but the losses will be so much more frustrating because we are just not learning.

 

In pre match chat I said we should try 433 against Cardiff play with the same formation and style we did beating Man City and Chelsea. Instead we go back to the predictable and easy to defend against formation.

I understand your point but, also, we have considerably out performed these teams this season in our overall results and lie above all of them in the league quite comfortably.  X

[Captain...]

58 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

I understand your point but, also, we have considerably out performed these teams this season in our overall results and lie above all of them in the league quite comfortably.  X

Therein lies the frustration that we have dropped points against all of them this season.

Edited 30 December 2018 by Captain...