Alf Bentley Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 (edited) Decent analysis: https://news.sky.com/story/eu-has-put-mps-in-the-driving-seat-for-brexit-11672338 "At times it was difficult to imagine that the prime minister who presented her delay compromise to the media in Brussels was the same one who had a day previously launched an uncompromising attack on the Commons for blocking her deal, and promised no lengthy delay. There was an embryonic sliver of almost regret from the PM over her "frustration" with the delay in that extraordinary statement.But here in Brussels after a day of behind-closed-doors drama, the PM had to accept a path to a long delay she had ruled out the day before, and that a short delay would be far shorter than she had hoped.Because this was the EU itself setting the terms and calendar of the Article 50 extension. The image of the day was the representatives of the 27 continuing member states gathered around a laptop hammering out the deal, while British representatives were locked out of discussions on another floor of the European Council building. Indeed, it was more even than that. During the course of the day in Brussels the mood of the EU27 shifted. At the beginning there was a hardline approach to the extension, helpful to the PM - the leaders almost all on message to cement the PM's plan to seal the withdrawal deal next week. But during the PM's 90-minute plea on an extension, mainly because she simply did not answer what would happen should the planned meaningful vote fail, there was a change.Some EU leaders had also met with visiting UK opposition leaders - Vince Cable and Jeremy Corbyn. Both communicated doubt about the PM's capacity to pass her deal. So the EU27 leaders decided to debate and decide for themselves, not the request from the PM, but also a wider solution to the current impasse. It offered a path to a longer extension that the PM had been prevented from asking for by a cabinet revolt. But it also squeezed the length of a shorter extension after passing a deal to just eight weeks with a deadline of 22 May. In any event the 29 March "cliff edge" was pushed back to 12 April. The structure was designed to reach around the prime minister and provide space for the House of Commons to crystallise its own solution. Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts, a member of the Brexit Steering Group, said: "What we did here was create some space to let parliament take hold of the process. Will they stand up to that responsibility? I don't know. To me, May, despite what I've heard from other leaders, her strategy of running down the clock has failed." The delay gives time for indicative votes, and for the Commons to take control of the process of asking for a longer extension by holding EU elections. It also allows the PM one last tilt at passing her deal. But the EU chose not to put all its eggs in that basket. It cannot rely on Theresa May's promises on that point. The delay deal agreed here was far away from the message sent by her now notorious Downing Street address blaming MPs for the impasse. Now those same MPs are in the driving seat". Well, the Brexiteers did say that they wanted "our sovereign British parliament to take back control".... Edited 22 March 2019 by Alf Bentley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nalis Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 Honesty think the third vote on her deal will lose by a greater majority than the second vote. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Nalis said: Honesty think the third vote on her deal will lose by a greater majority than the second vote. Now there is no "deal v no deal" situation it's a genuine possibility. Although if it isn't close surely they won't even bring it to the house? She should just resign and I presume Lidington takes over and starts the "indicative votes" procedure. Edited 22 March 2019 by MattP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 17 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Well, the Brexiteers did say that they wanted "our sovereign British parliament to take back control".... We did, but the idea wasn't to give it them just so they could hand it back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 5 minutes ago, MattP said: We did, but the idea wasn't to give it them just so they could hand it back You should have elected an ERG majority in parliament, then. I shouldn't laugh. Wouldn't entirely surprise me if we end up with an ERG majority govt soon..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 45 minutes ago, MattP said: "A union that has its members best interest at heart" Go and say that on the streets of Rome or Athens and see the reaction you get. That's a little unfair Matt. Go on the streets of Bordeaux and ask about Macron and the French governement (probably the best option available at the last election) Go on the streets of Workington and ask about May and the British government. Having not been allowed to vote on Brexit and being one of the first in the firing line I'm obviously not happy with the situation and I'd quite like May to implode, a GE and or referendum to be called and Brexit to be at the least delayed until Britian and the EU can agree on an organsided and fair exit procedure. I don't like the EU leaders and any ideas of federalism but I do like the EU and community togetherness, help and accosiated strength. For the first time I enjoyed seeing some humanity from Tusk and Juncker yesterday: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-47662526/brexit-three-moments-that-raised-a-smile?ocid=global_bbccom_email_21032019_top+news+stories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 56 minutes ago, Lionator said: This is what a lot of ardent leavers are saying to be fair. "It'll be hard to begin with, but we'll get through just like WW2" You can be sure not one of them lived through it. Presumably, the deluded fools they think the Empire will come to the rescue. 55 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said: I'm speechless. Apart from saying I'm speechless that is. All very sinister. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 18 minutes ago, Nalis said: Honesty think the third vote on her deal will lose by a greater majority than the second vote. Wouldn't surprise me, either. Firstly, her rant about parliament the other night will have alienated precisely some of those she needs to win over. She was never going to win over those with hard-line views, be that Corbyn or Peter Bone. The people she needed were those who were least cynical or ideological about Brexit, and most genuine about using parliament to get concessions that would have allowed them to support her deal - be that Tory Brexiteers who wanted to avoid No Deal or Labourites who wanted to honour the referendum result but needed more genuine concessions (not just cheap handouts from May). Lisa Nandy was on the verge of switching if she could get concessions on parliamentary input into the future relationship.....but was clearly furious at May's rant against parliament. Secondly, there's now no immediate cliff-edge - and the possibility of other options succeeding. Why would those who either prefer a different outcome or who fear No Deal switch any time soon? We could still end up in a May's Deal v. No Deal situation just before 12th April, I suppose.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: We could still end up in a May's Deal v. No Deal situation just before 12th April, I suppose.... May is like an anti-Sylvester Stallone. By the twelfth April it could be May's Deal V (it's just that she's lost every one of them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 2 minutes ago, FIF said: May is like an anti-Sylvester Stallone. By the twelfth April it could be May's Deal V (it's just that she's lost every one of them). Dutch PM Mark Rutte compared her instead to the knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 19 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: You should have elected an ERG majority in parliament, then. I shouldn't laugh. Wouldn't entirely surprise me if we end up with an ERG majority govt soon..... Very possible - you would assume the candidate the ERG backed would win a Tory leadership election and the Tories are still favourites to win the next election thanks to the state of the opposition. 17 minutes ago, Buce said: You can be sure not one of them lived through it. Not one leaver lived through WW2? You sure about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 55 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Decent analysis: https://news.sky.com/story/eu-has-put-mps-in-the-driving-seat-for-brexit-11672338 "At times it was difficult to imagine that the prime minister who presented her delay compromise to the media in Brussels was the same one who had a day previously launched an uncompromising attack on the Commons for blocking her deal, and promised no lengthy delay. There was an embryonic sliver of almost regret from the PM over her "frustration" with the delay in that extraordinary statement.But here in Brussels after a day of behind-closed-doors drama, the PM had to accept a path to a long delay she had ruled out the day before, and that a short delay would be far shorter than she had hoped.Because this was the EU itself setting the terms and calendar of the Article 50 extension. The image of the day was the representatives of the 27 continuing member states gathered around a laptop hammering out the deal, while British representatives were locked out of discussions on another floor of the European Council building. Indeed, it was more even than that. During the course of the day in Brussels the mood of the EU27 shifted. At the beginning there was a hardline approach to the extension, helpful to the PM - the leaders almost all on message to cement the PM's plan to seal the withdrawal deal next week. But during the PM's 90-minute plea on an extension, mainly because she simply did not answer what would happen should the planned meaningful vote fail, there was a change.Some EU leaders had also met with visiting UK opposition leaders - Vince Cable and Jeremy Corbyn. Both communicated doubt about the PM's capacity to pass her deal. So the EU27 leaders decided to debate and decide for themselves, not the request from the PM, but also a wider solution to the current impasse. It offered a path to a longer extension that the PM had been prevented from asking for by a cabinet revolt. But it also squeezed the length of a shorter extension after passing a deal to just eight weeks with a deadline of 22 May. In any event the 29 March "cliff edge" was pushed back to 12 April. The structure was designed to reach around the prime minister and provide space for the House of Commons to crystallise its own solution. Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts, a member of the Brexit Steering Group, said: "What we did here was create some space to let parliament take hold of the process. Will they stand up to that responsibility? I don't know. To me, May, despite what I've heard from other leaders, her strategy of running down the clock has failed." The delay gives time for indicative votes, and for the Commons to take control of the process of asking for a longer extension by holding EU elections. It also allows the PM one last tilt at passing her deal. But the EU chose not to put all its eggs in that basket. It cannot rely on Theresa May's promises on that point. The delay deal agreed here was far away from the message sent by her now notorious Downing Street address blaming MPs for the impasse. Now those same MPs are in the driving seat". Well, the Brexiteers did say that they wanted "our sovereign British parliament to take back control".... Correct Alf , after we had left the EU. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 1 hour ago, Grebfromgrebland said: I'm not being biased I'll post benefits of brexit as and when they become known. But if Vince Cable is right it shows exactly where we are as a nation. You lefties make me laugh, you’ve spent years telling us you don’t mind being hit in the pocket to create a better society but when we do the same, it’s treated with disbelief and labelled racist more often than not. You also spend years telling us that the media is poison and is trying to frighten us, then lap up shit like this. Brexit has deranged the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 12 minutes ago, MattP said: Very possible - you would assume the candidate the ERG backed would win a Tory leadership election and the Tories are still favourites to win the next election thanks to the state of the opposition. Not one leaver lived through WW2? You sure about that? That’s not what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grebfromgrebland Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 Got a good news brexit story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 14 minutes ago, MattP said: Very possible - you would assume the candidate the ERG backed would win a Tory leadership election and the Tories are still favourites to win the next election thanks to the state of the opposition. Very possible, indeed, though a lot might (or might not) happen to change that scenario. 14 minutes ago, MattP said: Not one leaver lived through WW2? You sure about that? Obviously, some leavers did live through WW2. But they'd have to be quite old now to have any proper memories of it. My uncle, who would have been 82 if he hadn't died 2 years ago, could just about remember being rushed to air-raid shelters when he was about 5. Anyone under about that age who spouts on about the war is probably just repeating stories told to them by their parents or whoever. To have served in WW2, you'd have to be in your 90s. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 Just now, Strokes said: You lefties make me laugh, you’ve spent years telling us you don’t mind being hit in the pocket to create a better society but when we do the same, it’s treated with disbelief and labelled racist more often than not. You also spend years telling us that the media is poison and is trying to frighten us, then lap up shit like this. Brexit has deranged the country. The relevant part of that is to create a better society. I’ve yet to see a Leaver explain what will be better about society without resorting to xenophobic statements about foreigners or a nostalgic belief in unicorn Britain taking its rightful place as a world leader. I know you don’t subscribe to any of that shit, so that post baffles me, tbh, bro. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 My grandma lived through the war and didn't think it was that great. Her basis for voting Remain was "it's kept the peace in Europe". I don't think anything's annoyed me more in this process than invoking the spirit of the Blitz to rationalise everything we're doing to ourselves as a country. It's fvcking bollocks. Go to a Wartime Weekend if you love all of that stuff so much, and leave the rest of us to live in the real world - a world many of those who lived through (and sadly died in) the war would no doubt rather have lived in. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grebfromgrebland Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Strokes said: You lefties make me laugh, you’ve spent years telling us you don’t mind being hit in the pocket to create a better society but when we do the same, it’s treated with disbelief and labelled racist more often than not. You also spend years telling us that the media is poison and is trying to frighten us, then lap up shit like this. Brexit has deranged the country. Not really comparable though is it? When the 'left' refer to getting hit in the pocket for a better life that means tax money spent on hospitals, schools, roads and the rest of the stuff we all benefit from. When the 'right' talk about getting hit in the pocket were just poorer without any benefits. What is this 'better life' you speak of? Try and describe it as see how it looks written down. Edited 22 March 2019 by Grebfromgrebland 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 33 minutes ago, Strokes said: You lefties make me laugh, you’ve spent years telling us you don’t mind being hit in the pocket to create a better society but when we do the same, it’s treated with disbelief and labelled racist more often than not. You also spend years telling us that the media is poison and is trying to frighten us, then lap up shit like this. Brexit has deranged the country. I honestly don't know why you keep biting. Just let them dismiss 17 million people as idiots/racists/little englanders. It's literally comedy gold and the reason we are where we are in the first place. You'll notice too I'm sure that there wasn't a single leftie comment about my headteacher talking shite post. Much easier to munch this stuff up as gospel nom nom nom must all play the victim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopic Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 My grandad, now 96, is Polish and fought in some pretty serious battles for Poland in WW2. Settled in the UK after the war. Still classed as a Polish citizen with passport, I assume he now has dual nationality or something as he's voted in elections and the referendum. He is still entirely there in his brain, he is a strong leave supporter and voted as such. I've never really spoken to him about it so not sure why he is on the leave side. Having said that, my entire family voted leave, except me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said: Not really comparable though is it? When the 'left' refer to getting but in the pocket for a better life that means tax money spent on hospitals, schools, roads and the rest of the stuff we all benefit from. When the 'right' talk about getting hit in the pocket were just poorer without any benefits. What is this 'better life' you speak of? Try and describe it as see how it looks written down. The NHS has had more money due to the example on the bus. And what about the ordinarily dishonest media that is now all of a sudden gospel? Edited 22 March 2019 by Strokes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 7 minutes ago, Kopic said: My grandad, now 96, is Polish and fought in some pretty serious battles for Poland in WW2. Settled in the UK after the war. Still classed as a Polish citizen with passport, I assume he now has dual nationality or something as he's voted in elections and the referendum. He is still entirely there in his brain, he is a strong leave supporter and voted as such. I've never really spoken to him about it so not sure why he is on the leave side. Having said that, my entire family voted leave, except me. I have some Polish colleges, some of them are very pro brexit, some very pro EU. In short the ones that support brexit say that the EU is German dominance but without the tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grebfromgrebland Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 1 minute ago, Strokes said: The NHS has had more money due to the example on the bus. Now I know you're trolling. What was on the bus was never going to happen. The NHS is more likely to be privatised and broken up if we brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 March 2019 Share Posted 22 March 2019 1 minute ago, Grebfromgrebland said: Now I know you're trolling. What was on the bus was never going to happen. The NHS is more likely to be privatised and broken up if we brexit. It has happened, the money has been pledged and allocated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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