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[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

The famous Cathy Newman interview was on channel 4 don't forget.  I know they aren't the media but Cambridge Uni have recently been a huge disappointment and rescinded the offer of a 2 month fellowship because some students and lobbyisys got up in arms about it, with many disparaging comments about him being a white male going unchallenged on social media.  So much for academic integrity and stamping out racism.   That could have been a very interesting learning opportunity for all involved.

 

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Just read about the Cambridge situation, how awful. 

 

The opportunity for students to receive free lectures from one of the leading psychologists on the World and it's denied because a small minority don't think he's "woke" enough - pathetic. 

I'm not actually sure what to think of JP anymore: he's clearly got smarts and he's a good communicator who often makes reasonable points...but there must be a reason he's such an icon among the alt-right even if he himself wants to distance himself from them as much as is possible.

 

If it's purely coincidental, then I have sympathy for the guy.

 

14 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Looking at the map, I'm surprised how many have signed the petition in some places: e.g. 1000+ in Leicester South, where I live - and 1000+ in Folkestone, the Brexity town where I grew up.

There were at least a few hundred signing in every constituency as far as I could tell.

 

That said, the map correlates very strongly to the pattern of Leave/Remain votes at the referendum: high in London, Brighton, Bristol, Cardiff, Cambridge, Edinburgh etc; low in northern ex-industrial areas etc.

Probably further evidence of strongly polarised views that haven't shifted all that much since 2016 - maybe enough to tilt the vote narrowly the other way if it was rerun, as the polls suggest, but not definitely or by a large margin.

 

 

Would be funny if 17.4 million sign the petition, though.....will of the people, innit? 

 

In all seriousness, much as I wish the nation would come to its senses and turn against Brexit and cancel it, I won't be signing any such petition.

 

I'm highly dubious that even a second referendum would be a good idea. I'd settle for Soft Brexit now. Revoking Article 50 would cause outrage and could seriously damage our already creaking democracy - unless there's a major shift in public opinion, and there's no sign of that, nation still divided down the middle.

That's my fear, too.

 

Though (putting my pessimist hat on here) I fear such conflict both in the UK and around the world may well end up being inevitable no matter what course of action is chosen anyway...there just seems to be too many factors pushing the tension needle to 11, too much overly aggressive nationalism in too many places - and the way the Earth is changing is only going to lead to additional resource stresses (potable water, mainly) which will of course exacerbate matters further.

 

I hope, really really hope, that I'm wrong though.

[urban.spaceman]

21 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Looking at the map, I'm surprised how many have signed the petition in some places: e.g. 1000+ in Leicester South, where I live - and 1000+ in Folkestone, the Brexity town where I grew up.

There were at least a few hundred signing in every constituency as far as I could tell.

 

That said, the map correlates very strongly to the pattern of Leave/Remain votes at the referendum: high in London, Brighton, Bristol, Cardiff, Cambridge, Edinburgh etc; low in northern ex-industrial areas etc.

Probably further evidence of strongly polarised views that haven't shifted all that much since 2016 - maybe enough to tilt the vote narrowly the other way if it was rerun, as the polls suggest, but not definitely or by a large margin.

 

 

Would be funny if 17.4 million sign the petition, though.....will of the people, innit? 

 

In all seriousness, much as I wish the nation would come to its senses and turn against Brexit and cancel it, I won't be signing any such petition.

 

I'm highly dubious that even a second referendum would be a good idea. I'd settle for Soft Brexit now. Revoking Article 50 would cause outrage and could seriously damage our already creaking democracy - unless there's a major shift in public opinion, and there's no sign of that, nation still divided down the middle.

Completely agree Alf. I voted remain but to remain now after all this would lead to very grave consequences. 

[lgfualol]

I got onto the website and signed up. I haven't received my confirmation email though..

 

#conspiracy

[Carl the Llama]

13 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

I got onto the website and signed up. I haven't received my confirmation email though..

 

#conspiracy

Check your junk mail

[bovril]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

Check your junk, male

This could be a good slogan for testicular cancer checks. 

[Buce]

42 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Completely agree Alf. I voted remain but to remain now after all this would lead to very grave consequences. 

 

Not as grave as leaving will.

 

 

The country being divided and the damage done to the trust in politicians is already a fait accompli. Continuing with this farce because 25% of the population was duped into thinking it's a good idea will not heal those things, it will just add further damage to an already damaged nation.

Edited 21 March 2019 by Buce

[Jon the Hat]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Not as grave as leaving will.

 

 

The country being divided and the damage done to the trust in politicians is already a fait accompli. Continuing with this farce because 25% of the population was duped into thinking it's a good idea will not heal those things, it will just add further damage to an already damaged nation.

Are you still convinced people were duped?  Really?

 

I maintain that leaving now is a better plan that waiting a few years for the EU to fall apart.

[Buce]

9 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Are you still convinced people were duped?  Really?

 

I maintain that leaving now is a better plan that waiting a few years for the EU to fall apart.

 

Demonstrably so.

 

The Leave campaign was built on lies. 'The easiest trade deals in history'; '60 million Turks all coming here'; '£350 million a week to the NHS'. And more. It was all bullshit. Even the staunchest believers in Leave now concede we'll be worse off, though, by 'we' they mean the proles - the likes of Bozo Johnson and Rees-Smug will prosper regardless, as will all the millionaires in the government.

 

If it was all such a good idea, then put it to the people again, now the truth is out.

[Innovindil]

 

Can we get back to racist day please. 

[Guest MattP]

12 minutes ago, Buce said:

Demonstrably so.

 

The Leave campaign was built on lies. 'The easiest trade deals in history'; '60 million Turks all coming here'; '£350 million a week to the NHS'. And more. It was all bullshit. Even the staunchest believers in Leave now concede we'll be worse off, though, by 'we' they mean the proles - the likes of Bozo Johnson and Rees-Smug will prosper regardless, as will all the millionaires in the government.

 

If it was all such a good idea, then put it to the people again, now the truth is out.

What about the emergency budget, 300,000 job losses and immediate recession in the aftermath of a vote to leave? What about the "dangerous fantasy" of the EU army? What about the denial of more integration? 

 

If you want to believe we were conned that's fine, no leave voter will lose any sleep over it - but we will have a chuckle at your side thinking it's vote wasn't also based on a pack of lies.

 

I'm just glad we won so we found out for sure. It would have awful to see you get away with it.

 

P.S The NHS is actually going to get even more than that now - unfortunately given the lack of funding everywhere else.

[lgfualol]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

Check your junk mail

It arrived in my mail about 45 minutes after signing up. 

 

Wont do shit but oh well 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

 

I'm not actually sure what to think of JP anymore: he's clearly got smarts and he's a good communicator who often makes reasonable points...but there must be a reason he's such an icon among the alt-right even if he himself wants to distance himself from them as much as is possible.

 

If it's purely coincidental, then I have sympathy for the guy.

 

 

If you listen to the content of what he says it doesnt lean to the right.  In fact if you listen to or read him extensively it starts to boggle the mind that there is such kick-back against him when he is so well intentioned.  I think its more indicative of how polarising debate is currently that he's construed on the right of the political spectrum

 

Maybe in opposing certain insane leftist ideology some right leaning people are drawn to that, more incidental if anything; even if there is a substantial right wing group of individuals clinging to what he's doing which I think its negligible

 

Edited 21 March 2019 by AlloverthefloorYesNdidi

[bovril]

I feel like we're living in a film set in 2019.

[EnderbyFox]

For the first time in the whole process, I'm now starting to believe we will actually leave next week with no deal. May's deal wont be third time lucky and she's too stubborn to attempt the longer extension. She'll fold to the right of her party imo. 

 

Fingers crossed she's booted out before then but I won't be holding my breath. 

[Strokes]

45 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Demonstrably so.

 

The Leave campaign was built on lies. 'The easiest trade deals in history'; '60 million Turks all coming here'; '£350 million a week to the NHS'. And more. It was all bullshit. Even the staunchest believers in Leave now concede we'll be worse off, though, by 'we' they mean the proles - the likes of Bozo Johnson and Rees-Smug will prosper regardless, as will all the millionaires in the government.

 

If it was all such a good idea, then put it to the people again, now the truth is out.

I’m not against a second referendum, I am against one that would include Mays deal vs Remain. As both options are unappealing. I think if the public has the opportunity to decide the fate of brexit, all the options should be on the table.

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

If you listen to the content of what he says it doesnt lean to the right.  In fact if you listen to or read him extensively it starts to boggle the mind that there is such kick-back against him when he is so well intentioned.  I think its more indicative of how polarising debate is currently that he's construed on the right of the political spectrum

 

Maybe in opposing certain insane leftist ideology some right leaning people are drawn to that, more incidental if anything; even if there is a substantial right wing group of individuals clinging to what he's doing which I think its negligible

 

This is exactly my point: that group of individuals really isn't negligible and not easily dismissed - a reasonably simple internet trawl will show the truth of that. You probably shouldn't judge someone by the company they keep, but it does raise the question as to why he's so popular with such folks.

 

I'm totally with you on the idea that the centre ground is disappearing given how much polarisation is going on and perhaps he's been caught up in that, but I think the above question does need a legit answer.

[Alf Bentley]

55 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Not as grave as leaving will.

 

 

The country being divided and the damage done to the trust in politicians is already a fait accompli. Continuing with this farce because 25% of the population was duped into thinking it's a good idea will not heal those things, it will just add further damage to an already damaged nation.

 

I agree with a lot you say. I think Brexit will leave the people of this country worse off economically and in terms of opportunities. I think it will also leave the UK politically and diplomatically weaker - and vulnerable to all sorts of pressure from major political, economic or military powers and major trading blocs.

 

If we continue to elect governments like the current one, I'd also expect major social damage and civil unrest, as the economic squeeze and "taking back control" leads to corporate tax cuts, the slashing of public services, increased poverty, increased deregulation, lower social/employment standards, higher crime & homelessness etc. But, ultimately, those are future political decisions that we have to take in this country. They are not inevitable.

 

It is also not inevitable that life in the EU would be better. The EU is no bed of roses with rising extremism (no doubt set to elect lots of Far Right MEPs in May) and high levels of unemployment, division and alienation in many EU countries.

Granted, I'd prefer to take my chances with a flawed EU than with a Brexit Britain, particularly under the Tories. That's why I voted Remain - and why I'd vote Remain again if we do end up with another referendum.

 

Brexit supporters drool as they predict the EU falling apart. It hasn't happened yet and the EU as a whole is still doing OK (it's just that some of its citizens are doing well and others are doing badly - a bit like the UK....late capitalism).

But it's certainly possible that the EU could implode given the various existential pressures on it.

 

It's also possible that the UK might learn the hard way from Brexit that it is no longer a great imperial power that can punch above its weight internationally. It's a massive fvcking shame if we do have to learn the hard way, but it might conceivably do the nation some good over the very long term - if we realise that our future security and prosperity, as a medium-sized nation, depends on being less insular and more internationalist - starting with continental alliances. We might just learn a bit of humility as a nation and usefully lose a bit of the Churchill-and-empire mindset, once we realise that we cannot take on the USA, China or the EU economically, Russia politically etc.

 

Don't get me wrong. If we end up with another referendum leading to a Remain vote, I'll be pleased in a way, even though it will cause unrest. But it comes with massive dangers that are not worth taking - of major civil unrest, even greater alienation from the democratic process, a major increase in violent racism and a serious rise of the violent, anti-democratic Far Right. Yes, things like that could happen anyway, if we continue to create a country afflicted by massive inequality, poverty and division. But it would be pretty inevitable, I think, if we just cancelled Brexit or called another referendum without this being justified by a shift in public opinion or a lack of acceptable alternatives.

 

If it comes down to a choice between a disastrous No Deal that almost nobody wanted or anticipated and May's Deal, loathed by the vast majority, then a referendum (not revocation) would be justified. For now, a Soft Brexit that obeys the flawed democratic mandate of the referendum but that maintains as many benefits of internationalism as possible remains an option - and the best option. Not a good option. Indeed, an option inferior to the status quo. But we no longer have any good option. We had the best option and we flushed it into the sewers when we voted for the Brexit shitshow in 2016 and didn't see sense in the years since - unless we miraculously recover our sanity as a nation now, which I absolutely do not expect. If we've not thought better of this by now, we're not going to do so until we have our faces rubbed into the shit for a good many years, if not decades....then we might learn.

 

Yes, the Leave campaign told blatant lies and floated impossible dreams and conned the nation, but the Remain campaign was pretty despicable, too. Yes, the vote was imperfect, but it has democratic validity and should only be overturned in extremis - if there's a major change in public opinion or the only alternatives are deeply unpopular or controversial.

 

 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

20 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

This is exactly my point: that group of individuals really isn't negligible and not easily dismissed - a reasonably simple internet trawl will show the truth of that. You probably shouldn't judge someone by the company they keep, but it does raise the question as to why he's so popular with such folks.

 

I'm totally with you on the idea that the centre ground is disappearing given how much polarisation is going on and perhaps he's been caught up in that, but I think the above question does need a legit answer.

I think ive answered it really by saying that as he's come up against leftist ideologues, to use his term, he's consequently been in a state of opposition to a group of people on the left, so incidentally people on the right using a very low level of analysis could use his image and co-opt it with their views, thinking that as he's not on that left team he might be on their right wing team  I think its exactly that and nothing more.  As the man himself says people extreme right wingers detest him as much as the extreme left wingers do

[urban.spaceman]

The petitions over a million now. The data quite amusingly showing many thousands of signatures from abroad...

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584.json

 

13 from Botswana!

[Buce]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

What about the emergency budget, 300,000 job losses and immediate recession in the aftermath of a vote to leave? What about the "dangerous fantasy" of the EU army? What about the denial of more integration? 

 

If you want to believe we were conned that's fine, no leave voter will lose any sleep over it - but we will have a chuckle at your side thinking it's vote wasn't also based on a pack of lies.

 

I'm just glad we won so we found out for sure. It would have awful to see you get away with it.

 

P.S The NHS is actually going to get even more than that now - unfortunately given the lack of funding everywhere else.

 

It’s not about ‘sides’, ffs - this isn’t football, it’s the future of our country at stake. I don’t expect you to get it, you’re just a working class version of Rees-Smug, stuck in the 19th century with your Tory Little Englander mentality. 

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

I’m not against a second referendum, I am against one that would include Mays deal vs Remain. As both options are unappealing. I think if the public has the opportunity to decide the fate of brexit, all the options should be on the table.

 

No quarrel with that, mate. 

[Guest MattP]

17 minutes ago, Buce said:

It’s not about ‘sides’, ffs - this isn’t football, it’s the future of our country at stake. I don’t expect you to get it, you’re just a working class version of Rees-Smug, stuck in the 19th century with your Tory Little Englander mentality. 

I've never been called working class before, thanks.

 

This Victorian era snobbery you have towards people who vote Leave and Conservative is actually quite disturbing, you never even debate things anymore - just throw insults about being little Englanders or being conned and on the odd time verge into warped conspiracy theories.

 

Got any more Latin for us? It's only you and Rees-Mogg I hear it from these days and I like it.

Edited 21 March 2019 by MattP

[Guest MattP]

Terrible to see more Russian interference in our democracy. 

 

 

[AKCJ]

Wonder what David Cameron makes of all this.

[Captain...]

7 hours ago, FIF said:

What are the people of the UK doing about Brexit?

 

If this were France the people would be on the streets and the city centres would be burning.

There is the petition, as mentioned, also a people’s vote march on Saturday. 

 

Re: The petition, it may not do much good but at the moment the idea of revoking article 50 is not even being discussed, it should be  because it is a realistic option and the only one that can actually be achieved. When you’ve been treading water for 2 years and the promised land is still nowhere in site and the beach you set off from is a short swim back. Just go back have a cocktail and relax, just try and ignore the shifty looking foreign family wearing speedos and shouting a lot.

 

If enough people sign it then it will hopefully put it as an option on a people’s vote.