Horse Racing - Should it be banned?

[Guest Kopfkino]

14 minutes ago, deejdeej said:

What makes you think a horse in a field would be miserable **** sake 

 

Cos they're racehorses, bred and then trained to race. They're worked most days for 6-9 months of the year. Many thoroughbreds get bored if they're not worked, exactly the same as a border collie or springer spaniel if you restrict it to home and garden for a period. 

 

Yes if you have a Cleveland Bay that's hardly been trained and has always just been turned out in a field then it will be perfectly happy just doing that - not so much a trained thoroughbred.

[ozleicester]

THousands of horses are killed every year, simply for the pleasure of "humans"

 

Cruelty isnt sport...and dont believe the "owners love them they live like kings bullsh!t" that only applies to the top 1% the rest are run into the ground or killed for not being fast enough.

FFS its 2019, we dont need cruelty to have fun.

 

Oh and the absurd, if we ban it we will kill the thousands of existing horses... but, dont the owners love them? wont they keep them alive because they are beautiful creatures?

impose a progressive ban that begins today and ensure the end of racing by 2024

[Kitchandro]

I thought this discussion would come up again after today, and I think it raises some very interesting points.

 

Firstly, some people just believe in 'animal use', and others don't. For example, I accept humans' right to use animals for our own benefit. Animals are not our equals. I would never directly inflict pain on an animal for enjoyment, but I'm happy for one to be slaughtered in order for me to enjoy eating it. Likewise, I don't like to see horses killed, but I accept that it is part and parcel of horse racing, a sport which I enjoy watching (though less so these days as I will partly explain).

 

I would find it very odd that people would be ok with having an animal killed so they could enjoy eating it, but are not ok with watching a horse race because of the small percentage that will be unintentionally killed. But of course, there are people out there who are ok with neither, and when it comes to this argument at least they are consistent.

 

People should remember that by comparison racehorses are not bred to die like livestock and poultry are, and are generally kept in much better conditions and live much better lives. They are bred to race and that is why they exist. Accidents happen in horse racing as in all sports but unfortunately horses cannot be treated like humans. They are powerful but fragile beasts that can suffer life threatening injuries any time, any place. As a lifelong racing fan I can reel off plenty of names who were killed on the gallops at home or in other freak accidents. And that's just as an armchair fan, not someone who works and cares for them on a daily basis.

 

The other thoughts are about the Grand National itself and I'd like to respond to Col directly in regards to that as I think he sums up the point I'm going to make:

 

2 hours ago, Col city fan said:

Why not make all races on the flat or reduce the fence sizes? What idiotic point are you trying to make? Horses can have a great life under stables and running races without having to fall so hard they snap their necks in two.

Again, think before you blurt ffs..

Unfortunately there are a large amount of people who watch the Grand National once a year and have no knowledge of the sport outside of this one occassion or even the race itself.

 

Today was the first time since 2012 that a horse has died in a Grand National. The lack of fatalities in recent years has almost certainly been down to the fact that the fences have not only been drastically reduced in size over the years but also since 2012 they are constructed in a completely different way, which makes them far more forgiving. In other words, horses can get away with far more mistakes on the Grand National course than they can get away with on any other course in Britain, let alone the Grand National course pre-2012, which was the toughest in Britain.

 

For real racing fans and those who watched Grand Nationals growing up when they were covered by the BBC, this has also made the race fairly dull, low quality and unrecognisable from the race pre-2012. Famous fences such as Bechers Brook pose apparently no threat at all to even novicey jumpers, horses are ploughing through fences with no risk of actually falling, and frankly, with less fallers the race has invariably become less entertaining.

 

Not only this, but the course being easier (and in fact shorter in distance now as well) has devalued the challenge to the extent where in the last few years we've had several long priced winners, a winner who had never previously won a jump race before, and (also partially due to the handicapping being done completely differently these days) now a dual winner who is being compared to Red Rum when in fact his achievement is nowhere near what that horse's was.

 

It is obviously understandable that the course was modified to satisfy the general public being as it's the race everyone watches, but none of these people show any interest in the welfare of horses for the rest of the year despite the fact Aintree is far from the worst culprit for horse fatalities in Britain. Similarly, the horse racing authorities, much like in football, react only to public outcry and rarely to the advice of those in the game, which is a sure sign they are only doing it to save face and keep their product popular. Horses die at other meetings all year round but it's just accepted - until it's the Grand National (or very occassionally Cheltenham).

 

Nor do people consider that flat racing, apparently the 'kind' version of the sport, has horses racing at 2-years old. And to answer your answer your direct question about flat racing Col - the careers are generally much shorter in that discipline and frankly the racing is pretty boring to a lot of jump racing fans, so it's allure is limited from both a business and sporting sense. And as above, this would not prevent horses dying once in a while at a racetrack.

 

Today the horse which was killed appeared to have it's leg broken by another horse bringing it down. Interestingly, the last horse that died in the Grand National 7 years ago suffered the exact same fate. In other words, neither of these injuries were a direct result of the fences. Over the years, many people, including those who have ridden in the National themselves, had argued that the reduction in fence size encouraged the horses to go faster which is more likely to cause serious injuries. There was staistical evidence for this with more horses being killed between 1990-2010 than 1970-1989.

 

Clearly this is no longer the case as further, even more drastic changes to the course have seriously reduced the danger element and the statistics prove it, and today I would even say they went at a slow pace, so even that can't be blamed for the death of Up For Review. The horse racing authorities have now backed themselves into a corner, where they have prioritised horse welfare (ahem money) over the entertainment the Grand National provided to real jump racing fans, and have lost the elite yet unpredictable nature that was the essence of the 'old' race.

 

Yet it has not stopped the complaints, and they will be expected to react to them as they have done before - with changes to the Grand National. But how many more can they make? There were only 7 fallers today (including unseats and brought downs) which I imagine is very close to the average since 2012 - and 1 of those resulted in a death. In years like 1994 and 2001 there were upwards of 20 fallers in each but no deaths in either. Which in islation is actually a worse ratio of deaths to falls.

 

So what we have now, as I predicted several years ago, is a situation where your traditional racing fans hate the Grand National, whereas many members of the general public still hate the Grand National.

 

 

[Kitchandro]

33 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

THousands of horses are killed every year, simply for the pleasure of "humans"

 

Cruelty isnt sport...and dont believe the "owners love them they live like kings bullsh!t" that only applies to the top 1% the rest are run into the ground or killed for not being fast enough.

FFS its 2019, we dont need cruelty to have fun.

 

Oh and the absurd, if we ban it we will kill the thousands of existing horses... but, dont the owners love them? wont they keep them alive because they are beautiful creatures?

impose a progressive ban that begins today and ensure the end of racing by 2024

Of course plenty of people in racing love their horses, don't be daft. It's ludicrous to sugget anything otherwise. Just like a lot of people love their dogs and cats, but some get bored of them or can't afford them and leave them to die.

 

You're not living in the real world, people wouldn't breed or own horses without racing because they are extremely expensive to keep compared to house pets and can't draw a profit any other way. I like horses but like most people I don't live on a farm and therefore there would be no point owning one unless I was racing it. It's not going to play fetch with me or sit on my lap whilst I chill by the fire.

[Strokes]

I love the sport and I don’t really care whether a bunch of fannies think it’s cruel. It isn’t and it’s one of the greatest shows on the planet.

[stripeyfox]

I'm not a racing fan as such. I'm probably one of those people who watch the National but have little or no interest beyond that. But from what I understand, the standards of equine care within the sport are amazing.

 

Every effort to limit risk is made, but unfortunately some horses die from time to time. No one wants to see that (and you could see the fallen horse yesterday thrashing around after it went down at the first). 

 

It is ludicrous to suggest racing should be "banned". As Kitch says, humans use animals for all sorts of reasons (mainly killing them to eat). Racehorses are very well cared for and also remember that a tiny fraction of them are killed during races. It is just the hysterical reaction of animal rights lunatics and facebook warriors that make this out to be a big problem

 

[Guest Col city fan]

8 hours ago, ozleicester said:

THousands of horses are killed every year, simply for the pleasure of "humans"

 

Cruelty isnt sport...and dont believe the "owners love them they live like kings bullsh!t" that only applies to the top 1% the rest are run into the ground or killed for not being fast enough.

FFS its 2019, we dont need cruelty to have fun.

 

Oh and the absurd, if we ban it we will kill the thousands of existing horses... but, dont the owners love them? wont they keep them alive because they are beautiful creatures?

impose a progressive ban that begins today and ensure the end of racing by 2024

We don’t need cruelty to have fun...

Absolutely spot on!

Tell that to the hunters too who murder elephants, giraffes etc ‘for fun’, or those who fight dogs for gambling purposes

They are the absolute scum of the fookin earth.

[David Guiza]

The fact that people make the comparison to F1 is embarrassing, considering the human stepping into the car make a voluntary and conscious decision. Also, if 3 drivers died in 3 days I think there would be some questions raised at the very least. In comparison horse racing as a sport doesn't blink at the death of competitors - some chav who thinks he's Gatsby for the weekend because he's wearing a three piece suit might be disheartened at the £20 he's thrown down the drain but that's about it.

 

Many think that because it's happened for years it must be ok, just like they did with circus animals or freak shows. Some seem to be obsessed with the notion that any pain or suffering by an animal is ok so long as they have been pampered in the past too - which is bizarre. If you took on a rescue dog and gave it the life of luxury 9/10ths of the time but occasionally whipped it and then shot it in the head because it lost all worth to you I think questions might be asked. 

 

The majority of things that are enjoyed by the elite are difficult to eradicate though, be it incest or slavery. Living somewhat in the country I have seen more than one hunts in the past year or so. The fact that it has been outlawed for 15 years doesn't matter to some.

 

It's yet another topic where people are very unlikely to change their minds though. If you aren't in favour then you'll also be a tree hugging softy to some. The only thing that would kill horse racing is a ban on gambling and that isn't going to happen anytime soon. I know some are adamant that horse racing would continue without betting, but I really don't see that and especially not in anywhere near the same capacity.

[Wymsey]

@Col city fan, next time post such images via a 'spoiler' - although you made a good point, my stomach churned very much looking at them..

 

Imagine if you were the horse, having to go through many whippings to run many miles during both training and event races (in fear that if you don't/refuse to do it, your life is at risk still) - hope would you feel?..

 

Yes, the tradition of the sport has been happening for centuries; but it's one of those situations where anti-animal campaigners are right in that it's an entertainment game for humans at the expenses of the poor horse's potential of injury/death via excessive habit of the hobby.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, peach0000 said:

On the day that a horse died in the grand national I wanted to know does anyone have any legitimate reasons why this barbaric excuse for a sport should be allowed? It's just a disgusting abuse of animals in my opinion. 

 

All butcher's shops should be closed as well as any animal breeding industries, Zoos, circuses, aquariums too if you want to go along this route.

 

I guess any sport can be seen as using human beings for that matter.

[ozleicester]

28 minutes ago, FIF said:

 

All butcher's shops should be closed as well as any animal breeding industries, Zoos, circuses, aquariums too if you want to go along this route.

 

I guess any sport can be seen as using human beings for that matter.

Human beings have a choice.

[peach0000]

34 minutes ago, FIF said:

 

All butcher's shops should be closed as well as any animal breeding industries, Zoos, circuses, aquariums too if you want to go along this route.

 

I guess any sport can be seen as using human beings for that matter.

Taking your points one by one;

Zoos - need to be held to a high standard and primarily used for conservation purposes. I personally would prefer a well run safari park environment to a zoo though. 

Circuses - If they are using animals they should be shut down.

Aquariums - as long as the fish are being kept in a spacious and appropriate space and looked after I would not see them as exploitative. However bigger more intelligent animals kept in         similar places (orcas for example) should be freed and the institutions shut down.

Animal breeding institutions - I would need to research the issue more, I don't want to just jump on a side without knowing what I'm talking about.

Butchers - this is where some may see me as hypocritical but I see a distinct difference between keeping animals for food (in good conditions) and exploiting animals for entertainment

Humans for sport - free choice, end of

 

These are of course just my views and I know people will disagree and find certain things I say hypocritical, so if I've missed any key points I'd be very happy to consider them.

[Guest Col city fan]

1 hour ago, David Guiza said:

The fact that people make the comparison to F1 is embarrassing, considering the human stepping into the car make a voluntary and conscious decision. Also, if 3 drivers died in 3 days I think there would be some questions raised at the very least. In comparison horse racing as a sport doesn't blink at the death of competitors - some chav who thinks he's Gatsby for the weekend because he's wearing a three piece suit might be disheartened at the £20 he's thrown down the drain but that's about it.

 

Many think that because it's happened for years it must be ok, just like they did with circus animals or freak shows. Some seem to be obsessed with the notion that any pain or suffering by an animal is ok so long as they have been pampered in the past too - which is bizarre. If you took on a rescue dog and gave it the life of luxury 9/10ths of the time but occasionally whipped it and then shot it in the head because it lost all worth to you I think questions might be asked. 

 

The majority of things that are enjoyed by the elite are difficult to eradicate though, be it incest or slavery. Living somewhat in the country I have seen more than one hunts in the past year or so. The fact that it has been outlawed for 15 years doesn't matter to some.

 

It's yet another topic where people are very unlikely to change their minds though. If you aren't in favour then you'll also be a tree hugging softy to some. The only thing that would kill horse racing is a ban on gambling and that isn't going to happen anytime soon. I know some are adamant that horse racing would continue without betting, but I really don't see that and especially not in anywhere near the same capacity.

Wonderful post

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Human beings have a choice.

Do they really? Maybe some do but most don't. It's by the by really. We are using human beings purely for sporting gratification. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, peach0000 said:

Taking your points one by one;

Zoos - need to be held to a high standard and primarily used for conservation purposes. I personally would prefer a well run safari park environment to a zoo though. 

Circuses - If they are using animals they should be shut down.

Aquariums - as long as the fish are being kept in a spacious and appropriate space and looked after I would not see them as exploitative. However bigger more intelligent animals kept in         similar places (orcas for example) should be freed and the institutions shut down.

Animal breeding institutions - I would need to research the issue more, I don't want to just jump on a side without knowing what I'm talking about.

Butchers - this is where some may see me as hypocritical but I see a distinct difference between keeping animals for food (in good conditions) and exploiting animals for entertainment

Humans for sport - free choice, end of

 

These are of course just my views and I know people will disagree and find certain things I say hypocritical, so if I've missed any key points I'd be very happy to consider them.

Zoo or safari park it's still the same Animals being limited to an area , often unnatural for the purpose of man's gratification.

Aquarium - same as above - it isn't natural, it is exploitative.

We breed animals for our own use, not for theirs. Nothing natural about it.

We don't need to exploit them for food do we? We force them to breed, force feed them, kill them (normally at a very immature age). Art least for sport we look after them and then when they finish allow them to live naturally till their natural death.

"End of" is the most stupid statement I've ever heard.

Boxers, Footballers, rugby players suffering brain damage for your entertainment - free choice is such a weak statement. Do you even know what choice is?

 

These views are just opinions, not even ones I necessarily agree with but they are as acceptable as the idea that horses shouldn't be bred to race imo.

[purpleronnie]

Excuse my ignorance but aren't the horses bred to run?  If there were no horse racing these horses wouldn't exist, and aren't they treated incredibly well for their whole lives?

[SouthStandUpperTier]

2 minutes ago, FIF said:

Do they really? Maybe some do but most don't. It's by the by really. We are using human beings purely for sporting gratification. 

There are instances where humans are exploited in sport. Be it pushy parents trying to turn their toddler into the next tennis superstar, or young African footballers being sold promises of a better life in Europe. But the vast majority of humans do it through choice, and because they love it.

[The Horse's Mouth]

What is barbaric about running one  straight line you Muppet 

[howlinmadmurfdoc]

10 hours ago, purpleronnie said:

Excuse my ignorance but aren't the horses bred to run?  If there were no horse racing these horses wouldn't exist, and aren't they treated incredibly well for their whole lives?

None of the ban racing brigade will even acknowledge that, bit like the vegans don’t realise if we didn’t eat meat there’d be no reason to breed most farm animals.

[Jattdogg]

The sport should be banned for being shite lol. Thats my personal opinion because i dont like watching horses run/jump just like i think car racing is shite  To each their own. If you enjoy it, have fun!

 

Do i think the horses love racing.....not really but i'm not a horse whisperer neither is anyone on here. If you claim to be then do share your weed.  Sure they may be treated well but i dont see a horse waking up thinking ohhh cant wait to have someone get on my back and go for a usain bolt like sprint today lol.

 

Of course you can consider it a bit "barbaric" if you are a hard core animal lover. I wouldnt say barbaric is the term but rather not normal horse behavior. Its human behavior riding a horse simple.

 

Being retired as a stud sounds like the best retirement though.

[ozleicester]

14 hours ago, purpleronnie said:

Excuse my ignorance but aren't the horses bred to run?  If there were no horse racing these horses wouldn't exist, and aren't they treated incredibly well for their whole lives?

thousands are bred, only hundreds make it to the track, hundreds of others are just killed!

 

 

14 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

What is barbaric about running one  straight line you Muppet 

Ask the horses that have been bred with wafer thin bones to improve speed, that have been killed because they break their legs running in a straight line.

 

HUge protests (not about racing, but related) in Australia today.

 

Watch Dominion.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-08/tougher-laws-for-animal-rights-activists-amid-plans-for-protest/10979204

[Innovindil]

5 hours ago, ozleicester said:

thousands are bred, only hundreds make it to the track, hundreds of others are just killed!

 

 

Ask the horses that have been bred with wafer thin bones to improve speed, that have been killed because they break their legs running in a straight line.

 

HUge protests (not about racing, but related) in Australia today.

 

Watch Dominion.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-08/tougher-laws-for-animal-rights-activists-amid-plans-for-protest/10979204

Huge protests from a few hundred vegans. 

 

Literally quaking. 

 

As for should horse racing be banned? Nah, get in the bin. Accidents happen in all walks of life, a few deaths/injuries shouldn't be enough to ban an entire sport enjoyed by millions. 

[RoboFox]

The sport needs to take a look at itself.

 

The use of the whips should be outright banned. No matter how how you look at it, beating the animals is not acceptable.

 

Fences should be removed, they risk they pose to the horses and jockeys is too great.

 

I had a bet on Up For Review in the Grand National on Saturday, it will likely be the last time I bet on horse racing. Seeing it writhe around on the floor after the fall was pretty shocking.

[Guest MattP]

Some people don't even seem to realise flat racing and national hunt are effectively two different sports.

 

Tiger Roll isn't going to start running on the flat if you ban the jumps.

 

As for racing not surviving without betting - if you think that you've never been to or seen the Dubai World Cup, at the open festival at Cheltenham I'd say the majority of the crowd aren't betting either.

[foxfanazer]

Banning horse racing seems a bit drastic imo. It's has made strides to lower the risk to the horses in certain aspects but still has a long way to go. 

 

Off topic slightly but the corruption in horse racing is something that really needs looking at. After working in a bookies for 4 or 5 years the things you see are scandalous. Completely stopped gambling on the horses

[David Guiza]

16 hours ago, howlinmadmurfdoc said:

None of the ban racing brigade will even acknowledge that, bit like the vegans don’t realise if we didn’t eat meat there’d be no reason to breed most farm animals.

So any cruelty in the world can be justified if the alternative is that they wouldn't exist anyway?

 

In that case any slaves that were forcibly bred by their 'masters' are justified because they served a purpose and wouldn't have been born were it not for the unethical and inhuman breeding?

 

I understand that's an extreme example but jusyfing something on that basis has always seemed a little bizarre to me. I can't, of course, speak on behalf of all animals activists, or vegans as you call them, but I suspect they would be satisfied with a few thousand happy and well looked farm animals, as opposed to millions bred for slaughter or entertainment. 

 

The same argument always crops up with puppy farms too. Any semi intelligent person can work out that there would be less dogs as a result, but the end justifies the means.