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[davieG]

5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Might give you a few hints so that you can rule over the Foxes Talk reich for 1000 years - or at least have more clout. 

 

Was it worth reading as you recall? I've been told it's simply not very well written - rambling - but would like to find out for myself some day, if I get round to it before I snuff it.

It was interesting because of who it was but difficult to remember how I felt about the style, on reflection it was probably about 35/40 years ago 

 

I think this is a free download - https://onemorelibrary.com/index.php/en/books/social-sciences/book/political-science-183/mein-kampf-193

I assume it's an English translation

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

 

 

Here he's using the example of someone reviewing The Bell Curve, and saying that some things are not up for debate.

 

But Owen, Wheen had to actually ****ing read the book to review it you prat. 

 

The left needs to get rid of dickheads like him.

I guess the argument is that once the book has been read and it's reasonably evident to a lot of people just how awful it is then there's not much point in it being on bookshelves beyond those of people who are actually interested/agree with the source material?

 

It's a piss poor argument tbh borne out of authoritarianism, but I see the argument being made.

 

Truth be told, my own take is that if I wanted to read bigoted, unsubstantiated and unscientific rubbish like how black people have genetically lower IQ's (as if such tests are a catch-all anyway) or how the Holocaust didn't happen I wouldn't bother paying for it purely for a veneer of slick delivery that blokes like Irving can offer, I'd just visit practically any Facebook or Youtube news comment thread and get it for free.

[urban.spaceman]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I guess the argument is that once the book has been read and it's reasonably evident to a lot of people just how awful it is then there's not much point in it being on bookshelves beyond those of people who are actually interested/agree with the source material?

 

It's a piss poor argument tbh borne out of authoritarianism, but I see the argument being made.

 

Truth be told, my own take is that if I wanted to read bigoted, unsubstantiated and unscientific rubbish like how black people have genetically lower IQ's (as if such tests are a catch-all anyway) or how the Holocaust didn't happen I wouldn't bother paying for it purely for a veneer of slick delivery that blokes like Irving can offer, I'd just visit practically any Facebook or Youtube news comment thread and get it for free.

Wonder what Owen suggests we should do with books we disagree with?

 

Burn them perhaps?

[Guest MattP]

I've got Mein Kampf and Mao's little red book on my shelves so the book burners from right and left can come for me.

 

Never amazes me to see how people like Owen Jones manage to publicly embarrass themselves so consistently.

[Bilo]

Irving is an odd one to have on your shelf as the Lipstadt trial completely discredited him as a historian even from an objective standpoint.

 

It's a bit rich of Jones though, considering he vociferously defended Corbyn when he wrote the foreword for a book that argued that Jews controlled world finance and the antisemitic mural. 

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Wonder what Owen suggests we should do with books we disagree with?

 

Burn them perhaps?

Anyone with half a brain knows that burning a book or killing an author doesn't kill an idea. Perhaps a while ago it was more true (but probably not even then), but in this digital age it's especially not true.

 

The best solution to sorting through folks clearly hankering after shitty ideas is to give them that kind of platform and then make sure they look as ridiculous as possible. However, that isn't always foolproof in this age of curated digital information either, as the events of November 2016 rather clearly proved.

[Kopfkino]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

I've got Mein Kampf and Mao's little red book on my shelves so the book burners from right and left can come for me.

 

Never amazes me to see how people like Owen Jones manage to publicly embarrass themselves so consistently.

 

I've got Tommy Robinson's book situated closely to Michael Cook's Brief Intro to the Koran and The House of Islam so am I Muslim or an Islamophobe? Can't bear the tension

[bovril]

I've got Clough's biography on my shelf, does that make me a..... urgh don't even go there. 

[ealingfox]

18 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

I've got Tommy Robinson's book situated closely to Michael Cook's Brief Intro to the Koran and The House of Islam so am I Muslim or an Islamophobe? Can't bear the tension

 

Bit weird that you've got Tommy Robinson's book tbh.

[davieG]

I've got Ian Holloway's biography.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, davieG said:

I've got Ian Holloway's biography.

In that case, yes you are.

[Kopfkino]

9 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

Bit weird that you've got Tommy Robinson's book tbh.

It just isn't and it's served me well

[Guest MattP]

18 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

Bit weird that you've got Tommy Robinson's book tbh.

Hello Owen

[Mike Oxlong]

Information is power 

 

May be a load of tosh but sounds good 

[StanSP]

3 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

The left needs to get rid of dickheads like him.

How would you propose this is done out of interest? 

 

I don't agree that Gove should be hounded so much for having such books - having it doesn't necessarily mean you distinctly agree with it. Literally simple as that. Is a bit weird to have such a volume of controversial books though, no? Of course it genuinely could be for learning purposes. Nothing wrong with that obviously. 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

3 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

Seriously, though.....idiocy from Owen Jones.

 

3 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

He's such an idiot he lacks the skills to understand just how much of an idiot he actually is.

The left needs to get rid of dickheads like him.

 

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Never amazes me to see how people like Owen Jones manage to publicly embarrass themselves so consistently.

Owen Jones - as viewed by Private Eye. Enjoy!

 

[Guest MattP]

34 minutes ago, StanSP said:

How would you propose this is done out of interest? 

 

I don't agree that Gove should be hounded so much for having such books - having it doesn't necessarily mean you distinctly agree with it. Literally simple as that. Is a bit weird to have such a volume of controversial books though, no? Of course it genuinely could be for learning purposes. Nothing wrong with that obviously. 

Such a volume? It's two.

 

As others have said though, you openly voted for a man to lead the country who wrote the foreword for a book written by a holocaust denier.

 

So Gove owning one shouldn't bother you one bit.

Edited 4 May 2020 by MattP

[StanSP]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

you openly voted for a man to lead the country who wrote the foreword for a book written by a holocaust denier.

yeah but did he own the book himself ?

[Strokes]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I guess the argument is that once the book has been read and it's reasonably evident to a lot of people just how awful it is then there's not much point in it being on bookshelves beyond those of people who are actually interested/agree with the source material?

 

It's a piss poor argument tbh borne out of authoritarianism, but I see the argument being made.

 

Truth be told, my own take is that if I wanted to read bigoted, unsubstantiated and unscientific rubbish like how black people have genetically lower IQ's (as if such tests are a catch-all anyway) or how the Holocaust didn't happen I wouldn't bother paying for it purely for a veneer of slick delivery that blokes like Irving can offer, I'd just visit practically any Facebook or Youtube news comment thread and get it for free.

They may not have paid for it, they may not have even read it yet. I have lots of books on my bookshelf (not quite as many since lockdown) that are as yet unread, and some of them are gifts not especially to my taste.

[Alf Bentley]

13 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

 

 

Owen Jones - as viewed by Private Eye. Enjoy!

 

 

I hadn't seen that and I subscribe to Private Eye.

 

I think Owen Jones' problem is that he's still trying to make up for his "betrayal" of Corbyn in the run-up to the 2017 election.

 

Despite appearances to the contrary here and although he irritates some, he's a bright bloke and I've seen some good articles and interviews he's done over the years.

But he blotted his copybook with the Kneejerk Left by showing his good judgment and repeatedly criticising the recently departed Dear Leader c. 2016-2017.

Guido Fawkes isn't someone I'd normally quote, but this popped up when I Googled looking for evidence to support my memory and emphatically makes my point: https://order-order.com/2017/06/12/10-times-owen-jones-betrayed-corbyn/ 

 

Everything that Jones says in those "traitorous" comments is bloody right. His initial judgment was correct......problem is he is a prominent left-wing journalist and wrongly concluded that he'd misjudged things after the narrow 2017 defeat....and faced a lot of hostility from the Corbynista crew for his "treachery". Ever since, he seems to have been pandering to the Kneejerk Left so as to restore his "left-wing" reputation. This comment on David Irving seems like another example of that. Shame as he's capable of much better. Awkward situation, mind, to have gone all mea culpa about his initial judgment, which was correct, then seemed to him to be disproved by 2017....but was again categorically proved right in 2019! 

 

 

[Guest MattP]

Whenever I see Jones I cant help but think of this, still the funniest piece if journalism I've seen.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/04/russell-brand-endorsed-labour-tories-should-be-worried

 

This classic appeared the other week as well...has a journalist ever been so weirdly self delusional of his own impact?

 

Rattled? Ben's majority went from 1,057 to over 16,000

 

Maybe the trip wasn't as successful as Owen thought.

[Alf Bentley]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Whenever I see Jones I cant help but think of this, still the funniest piece if journalism I've seen.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/04/russell-brand-endorsed-labour-tories-should-be-worried

 

This classic appeared the other week as well...has a journalist ever been so weirdly self delusional of his own impact?

 

Rattled? Ben's majority went from 1,057 to over 16,000

 

Maybe the trip wasn't as successful as Owen thought.

 

Those certainly haven't aged well - though they do have the tone of partisan bravado that football fans spout to boost morale, shortly before their team loses 5-0.

 

Also, the Mansfield one is dated February 2018, so a lot closer to Corbyn's "glorious" defeat of 2017 than to the 2019 debacle.

If an election had been held in February 2018, with May still at the helm and Brexit undone, maybe Labour would have taken Mansfield..... 

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Also, the Mansfield one is dated February 2018, so a lot closer to Corbyn's "glorious" defeat of 2017 than to the 2019 debacle.

If an election had been held in February 2018, with May still at the helm and Brexit undone, maybe Labour would have taken Mansfield..... 

It may have been closer but I doubt they would have turned it over.

The trouble with people like Owen, is they enjoy their own opinions so much, they don’t have an ounce of respect for an alternative. When they are speaking, they can’t help but be so impressed with themselves that they don’t ever attempt to adapt to suit the audience. It’s not uniquely a problem for the left, it’s just that these people tend to be in prominent positions on the left currently. I think he does more for the Tories than he has ever and will ever achieve for Labour.

[Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Information is power 

 

May be a load of tosh but sounds good 

 

Of course. It's why the best/most difficult people to argue with are people that used to think something but have moved their position because they understand the pain points of the argument and the likely retorts. In my final year at uni, I remember being in the SU bar with a friend that used to be full on commie pick off a couple of people from MarxSoc in a way nobody else I knew could. 

 

Seems weirder to me to be so absent of curiosity that you'd dismiss something entirely based on wider opinion and the beliefs and narratives you've already formed. Different strokes for different folks. Maybe I just find it more interesting to pick things apart than sit in an arena of clapping sea lions. 

[Kopfkino]

38 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I hadn't seen that and I subscribe to Private Eye.

 

I think Owen Jones' problem is that he's still trying to make up for his "betrayal" of Corbyn in the run-up to the 2017 election.

 

Despite appearances to the contrary here and although he irritates some, he's a bright bloke and I've seen some good articles and interviews he's done over the years.

But he blotted his copybook with the Kneejerk Left by showing his good judgment and repeatedly criticising the recently departed Dear Leader c. 2016-2017.

Guido Fawkes isn't someone I'd normally quote, but this popped up when I Googled looking for evidence to support my memory and emphatically makes my point: https://order-order.com/2017/06/12/10-times-owen-jones-betrayed-corbyn/ 

 

Everything that Jones says in those "traitorous" comments is bloody right. His initial judgment was correct......problem is he is a prominent left-wing journalist and wrongly concluded that he'd misjudged things after the narrow 2017 defeat....and faced a lot of hostility from the Corbynista crew for his "treachery". Ever since, he seems to have been pandering to the Kneejerk Left so as to restore his "left-wing" reputation. This comment on David Irving seems like another example of that. Shame as he's capable of much better. Awkward situation, mind, to have gone all mea culpa about his initial judgment, which was correct, then seemed to him to be disproved by 2017....but was again categorically proved right in 2019! 

 

 

 

He's evidently a very smart bloke, his Chavs book is pretty decent and a good modern addition to left literature. But yeah as you say he's let himself get lost in the games of politics and the age of the spectacle. He'd be so much better if he stepped back a bit to be more considered rather than just being a high-profile activist.