Stadium Expansion...?

[Hollyfox]

35 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

If the entire block is a free for all and everyone knows that then I've got no issue with it. 

 

I used to have a season ticket on the terrace at Welford Road and you just knew that part of the deal was first come first served, you want a good spot you go early. 

 

What I have a problem with is there being allocated seats and people just ****ing it off and standing where they want with no regard for other people. 

There's no way they'll allow safe standing to be introduced and just have an area where you can just stand where you like. 

It'll be hard enough to bring in as it is but they'll have to be certain criteria so there's not too many people in one part of the area. 

That could cause a crush and after years of trying to bring these areas back, the powers that be will be scrutinising everything. 

One of the main problems is people acting like idiots. 

 

To compare people being drunk at cricket and rugby is absolutely ridiculous. 

 

Anyone got any footage of Glamorgan fans steaming into a load of Kents? 😄

[CosbehFox]

38 minutes ago, Livid said:

So if we're going to force them to move, where do we move them to ? We're already tight on space the only area where you could move to en masse is the new upper tier. Aside from people not wanting to move seats at the the season ticket prices in SK1/G1 (£5 difference I think) are around the cheapest available and having just completed that survey the expansion seats look like they're going to cost a premium. They could initially discount their tickets but that will eventually expire.

In some ways though that's what the survey is all about. It's about weighing up the correlations - maybe if they find that there is three blocks what have over 95% of standing then it's more business sense to relocate the other 5% (with you making an area of the ground cheaper in full). Equally it could go the other way as you've illustrated. Equally we could have scenario where someones seat is in the proposed season ticket plus area and they are asked for a huge rise. 

 

There's mitigating circumstances where you could have two blocks of the Kop standing, two blocks of the Kop seating (similar to Celtic Park where it's a corner block). Those being moved could literally be moved ten seats to right or left. Staying in the same cost bracket, in the same area of the ground and with their regular social group. For example, there could be an element of make the standing one of those awkward corners with the poorest view and give the relocated person a more clearer view of the pitch at the same price towards the middle of the Kop. 

 

 

Edited 14 August 2019 by Cardiff_Fox

[Hollyfox]

4 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Everywhere I've been in Germany with the exception of the Espirit Arena you can wonder around the home or away terrace with absolute impunity. 

 

That's not what's being proposed here by any stretch. 

I'm the Allianz, the Munich fans do their bit then the bloke at the front silences the home lot and let the away (Frankfurt when I was there) sing their songs for a few minutes. 

 

Then Boom, they start up again. 

 

It's rivalry but a mutual respect and I saw no trouble before or after the game in loads of biergartens that we went to. 

 

Many of our lot are different. 

 

I'm sure Chelsea fans would relish walking around the new Spurs ground  with impunity. 

 

Our fans have a history of very bad behaviour. 

 

Many well known films have even glorified this shit. 

 

Would love standing to come back, it's what drew me to football in the 1st place really as City were pretty bad but the Kop end, the bloke surfing on a big blue sheet, the beers and the good away days like Southend made me addicted. 

👍

[KrefelderFox666]

55 minutes ago, Hollyfox said:

I think this is one of the major problems with bringing terracing back (or safe standing) in this country. 

 

We just don't follow rules like many of our European counterparts. 

 

In Germany, for example, you have your allocated space and that's where you stand. 

 

I really do think stewards will struggle to get groups to not gather in those spaces which could be a problem. 

 

If it comes in, I think they'll have to be tough rules put in place and possibly a confiscation of a season ticket if ST holders don't do this. 

 

 

Yh, that's completely wrong. There may be a section where people normally stand but no such thing as reserved standing. In Germany, most of the standing is a little more towards terracing but with regular crowdbreakers. First come first served, no patches are reserved for anyone. Generally groups get in early and place their scarves flags, belongings whatever down and it's common courtesy to pick a space where the "ultras" don't congregate, or you join in.

 

In Munich for example, you have a ticket for the standing section and you can go in any block (until capacity is reached), first come first served.

 

I was at the German cup final in May and had a seat in the upper tier. I can assure you, more than 50% of people were not in their seats. Was it an issue with people? No. I ended up going into the lower tier for the second half which is where the ultra groups were and there was groups of people near the bottom with the rest just spread out over free seats, sometimes 1 person to 2 seats. People don't moan over there, they just deal with it and I guess are used to it over a long period of time. Same when I have been to Munich CL away games, the club even state that people may not be in their allocated seats so you just find a spare one.

[davieG]

3 hours ago, Jobyfox said:

I first started watching football in the old Kop at Filbert Street. I loved standing and the atmosphere generated in pen 3. 

 

I sit in a similar position at the KPS as I stood all those years ago. The demographic of the people in the area has changed. There are many more women, many more older people, many more people who want to sit and watch quietly.

 

I’ve long thought that a true atmosphere will only return when safe standing returns. The like minded fans can stand together and, although it’s a sweeping statement, I feel this area will also contain the more vocal fans. The chants and songs will not die out as they do now when they reach the old lady doing her knitting or the old fella reaching for his flask, That’s not to undermine the value of those fans at all.

 

In fact those older fans are similar to me. 30 years on I don’t want to stand and jump around anymore. With age and maturity I’m far less vocal than I used to be. I’m happy to sit and watch now. 

 

But I’m a firm believer that safe standing will enhance the match day experience for many and probably for all with the atmosphere it will generate. 

That happened the day we moved into the KP because people were encouraged to select the same stand as they were in at Filbo so you got a combination of the Kop and the Double Decker all mixed into the South Stand/ New Kop.

[KrefelderFox666]

41 minutes ago, Livid said:

 

I have nothing against safe standing at all, but there's still some issues with implementing it. A new ground and a designated standing area, not a problem implementing it in a existing ground raises issues. 

 

I'm assuming those who have been campaigning for it are looking at the SK1/G1 corner. 

 

I sit in G1 (stand when it get's exciting!) and if you look at the make up of SK1 and G, away from Union FS standing at the back, it's a real mix, Pensioners, Families with younger kids, Lads the whole spectrum of our support. They're not all going to want to stand. 

 

So if we're going to force them to move, where do we move them to ? We're already tight on space the only area where you could move to en masse is the new upper tier. Aside from people not wanting to move seats at the the season ticket prices in SK1/G1 (£5 difference I think) are around the cheapest available and having just completed that survey the expansion seats look like they're going to cost a premium. They could initially discount their tickets but that will eventually expire.

 

I assume the boys in L1 stand there because it's a clapper's throw from the away fans, do they want to move ? If we have a safe standing area I can't see standing in L1 being tolerated the way it currently is. 

 

The "Do you want an atmosphere ?" argument comes at a cost and i'm just not sure it's worth paying.

 

Being tight on space is a bit of a myth. There are currently 6,000 empty seats which equates to about 20% of stadium capacity and 25% home allocation capacity. Every 4th seat is empty. With an expansion of say 8,000, that makes 14,000 free seats to choose from. It would not be an issue to find an alternative seat in the stadium unless you are really pedantic about being in one particular seat. In that case, yes, the person would be annoyed.

 

Don't forget that those couple of thousand wanting safe standing will be vacating their seats as well, creating space elsewhere (in particular SK1/L1 but many others). As I said before, moving a few hundred people so that we can congregate those who stand safely into one area is minimal disruption.

 

I see it working like this:

 

Ground is expanded

Let's say all of SK1 becomes safe standing

Everyone in SK1 now is given the option to renew there, or move

Everyone not in SK1 can apply to become part of SK1 safe standing area

Everyone who has had to move away from SK1 now gets first choice on any vacated/available seats elsewhere (choice of 14,000 or so seats)

Other people can relocate

New season ticket holders can buy

 

I would love to get an atmosphere back into stadiums in the UK, it really has sunk over the past 10-15 years. The PL used to be the flagship league. It's become a joke now where any European side could come here and pretty much outdo us. And atmosphere should be part of football, it's not a theatre.

[yorkie1999]

6 minutes ago, davieG said:

That happened the day we moved into the KP because people were encouraged to select the same stand as they were in at Filbo so you got a combination of the Kop and the Double Decker all mixed into the South Stand/ New Kop.

Then everyone found out where the away fans were going to be seated, so they all went to L1

[yorkie1999]

2 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

Being tight on space is a bit of a myth. There are currently 6,000 empty seats which equates to about 20% of stadium capacity and 25% home allocation capacity. Every 4th seat is empty. With an expansion of say 8,000, that makes 14,000 free seats to choose from. It would not be an issue to find an alternative seat in the stadium unless you are really pedantic about being in one particular seat. In that case, yes, the person would be annoyed.

 

Don't forget that those couple of thousand wanting safe standing will be vacating their seats as well, creating space elsewhere (in particular SK1/L1 but many others). As I said before, moving a few hundred people so that we can congregate those who stand safely into one area is minimal disruption.

 

I see it working like this:

 

Ground is expanded

Let's say all of SK1 becomes safe standing

Everyone in SK1 now is given the option to renew there, or move

Everyone not in SK1 can apply to become part of SK1 safe standing area

Everyone who has had to move away from SK1 now gets first choice on any vacated/available seats elsewhere (choice of 14,000 or so seats)

Other people can relocate

New season ticket holders can buy

 

I would love to get an atmosphere back into stadiums in the UK, it really has sunk over the past 10-15 years. The PL used to be the flagship league. It's become a joke now where any European side could come here and pretty much outdo us. And atmosphere should be part of football, it's not a theatre.

Where are there currently 6000 empty seats?

[Papasmurf]

24 minutes ago, Hollyfox said:

There's no way they'll allow safe standing to be introduced and just have an area where you can just stand where you like. 

It'll be hard enough to bring in as it is but they'll have to be certain criteria so there's not too many people in one part of the area. 

That could cause a crush and after years of trying to bring these areas back, the powers that be will be scrutinising everything. 

One of the main problems is people acting like idiots. 

 

To compare people being drunk at cricket and rugby is absolutely ridiculous. 

 

Anyone got any footage of Glamorgan fans steaming into a load of Kents? 😄

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-49237955

 

[davieG]

Just now, yorkie1999 said:

Where are there currently 6000 empty seats?

I think he means seats without a ST holder that another ST holder could move to.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Hollyfox said:

I'm the Allianz, the Munich fans do their bit then the bloke at the front silences the home lot and let the away (Frankfurt when I was there) sing their songs for a few minutes. 

 

Then Boom, they start up again. 

 

It's rivalry but a mutual respect and I saw no trouble before or after the game in loads of biergartens that we went to. 

 

Many of our lot are different. 

 

I'm sure Chelsea fans would relish walking around the new Spurs ground  with impunity. 

 

Our fans have a history of very bad behaviour. 

 

Many well known films have even glorified this shit. 

 

Would love standing to come back, it's what drew me to football in the 1st place really as City were pretty bad but the Kop end, the bloke surfing on a big blue sheet, the beers and the good away days like Southend made me addicted. 

👍

I'm sorry, but that is a severe distortion of the reality of the German fan scene.

 

For one, there are many reasons why a capo at the front might shut up for a few minutes but purely doing so out of politeness to let the opposition fans have a go at being loud isn't one of them. He usually perks up just because it's gone quieter in his end and not as many are singing as had been previously.

 

For two, trouble at German games is far more regular and on a bigger scale than it is in England nowadays. I'm not surprised you didn't see any in a Biergarten as these people are seriously organised in and out of the stadium. A tourist attraction is the last place they'd want to do their business.

 

You're right in that's there's mutual respect to some extent and in exceptional circumstances (such as Ultras groups working together on campaigns opposing the German FA, ticket price increases, police brutality etc), but that's where it stops. Banner and scarf stealing goes on regular as clockwork, and those on the receiving end often find themselves on the end of a good kicking for their trouble (something I have personal experience of having been decked and robbed in Stuttgart while carrying what I thought was a well hidden Bochum and Leicester flag a few years ago).

 

If anything, the authorities here would have less to deal with in England than they would in Germany purely because more hardcore fans by and large don't organise in the same way as they do on the continent.

[KrefelderFox666]

4 minutes ago, davieG said:

I think he means seats without a ST holder that another ST holder could move to.

Yes, sorry, 6,000 empty seats that season ticket holders can move to.

[CosbehFox]

Also another point I've forgot to make is that you'd surprise how wide the demographic is on a terrace in Germany or Italy (where I've seen football)

 

Look at these stats here - interesting how much more lower we are compared to the rest of Europe. Despite some of those countries having a big reputations for trouble and the stadiums in general being less policed/managed.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/658959/europe-football-fans-by-country-and-gender/

 

 

[Livid]

12 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

Yes, sorry, 6,000 empty seats that season ticket holders can move to.

Not where groups could sit together though.  A guy has just bought his first ST in what was the spare seat next to me his two mates are two rows in front and three behind. 

[davieG]

1 minute ago, Livid said:

Not where groups could sit together though.  A guy has just bought his first ST in what was the spare seat next to me his two mates are two rows in front and three behind. 

As  of now but presumably there would be ' groups' of fans moving to the standing area.

[Livid]

4 minutes ago, davieG said:

As  of now but presumably there would be ' groups' of fans moving to the standing area.

Not trying to be the Devil’s Advocate but nothing is guaranteed.

 

No safety issues with people standing it’s just not so straightforward as just let’s use this area. 

[fazzyfox]

Just completed the survey, worried that the threat of staging Jimmy Carr shows in the arena will lead to mass rejection of the entire project!

 

To be fair they have obviously structured this survey with a specific group of questions mainly relating to facilities and touching upon access (travel) but one angle I would have liked to have seen explored (and maybe in future) would be this, regarding the possible change in culture when it comes to deciding whether to attend they could ask "If tickets were more likely to be available closer to the match day do you have friends or family who would be likely to attend who currently feel unable to". I fear though that even if this does become the case, if you have a season ticket or have secured yoir seat early it will be difficult / impossible to buy adjacent seats for friends weeks later. Perhaps the ability to trade in your seat for one with the later purchases would be appealing but logistically with 40,000+ seats do they really want to be investing in such an adjustment policy?

 

And based on my responses on catering and premium areas I got the following detailed print out of how it could look....

 

[Tommy G]

1 hour ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

Being tight on space is a bit of a myth. There are currently 6,000 empty seats which equates to about 20% of stadium capacity and 25% home allocation capacity. Every 4th seat is empty. With an expansion of say 8,000, that makes 14,000 free seats to choose from. It would not be an issue to find an alternative seat in the stadium unless you are really pedantic about being in one particular seat. In that case, yes, the person would be annoyed.

 

Don't forget that those couple of thousand wanting safe standing will be vacating their seats as well, creating space elsewhere (in particular SK1/L1 but many others). As I said before, moving a few hundred people so that we can congregate those who stand safely into one area is minimal disruption.

 

I see it working like this:

 

Ground is expanded

Let's say all of SK1 becomes safe standing

Everyone in SK1 now is given the option to renew there, or move

Everyone not in SK1 can apply to become part of SK1 safe standing area

Everyone who has had to move away from SK1 now gets first choice on any vacated/available seats elsewhere (choice of 14,000 or so seats)

Other people can relocate

New season ticket holders can buy

 

I would love to get an atmosphere back into stadiums in the UK, it really has sunk over the past 10-15 years. The PL used to be the flagship league. It's become a joke now where any European side could come here and pretty much outdo us. And atmosphere should be part of football, it's not a theatre.

What if you are in SK1 and have been for 10 years and don't want to relocate? If that becomes the safe standing area for example. 

 

Wherever they chose it to be it will  likely annoy people I guess

[walkerleeds]

39 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

What if you are in SK1 and have been for 10 years and don't want to relocate? If that becomes the safe standing area for example. 

 

Wherever they chose it to be it will  likely annoy people I guess

 

People should embrace change, not fear it.

 

You could argue it'll be a very good life lesson for them. 

[Vestan Pance]

3 hours ago, davieG said:

That happened the day we moved into the KP because people were encouraged to select the same stand as they were in at Filbo so you got a combination of the Kop and the Double Decker all mixed into the South Stand/ New Kop.

Spot on. Also the no concessions in the Filbo kop was dropped when we moved to KP, so more kids moved to South Stand.

[Hollyfox]

Re my comments on German fans/behaviour etc. 

I can only go on what I experienced and what my mates told me. 

Thanks for the replies 👍😁

[FoxyPalace.com]

[Sol thewall Bamba]

6 minutes ago, FoxyPalace.com said:

Horrible club but Stadium MK is one of the better of the generic modern bowls imo, the two tiers the whole way round breaks it up nicely.

[Speedwell 🦊]

8 hours ago, Speedwell 🦊 said:

I can’t see everyone wanting to stand and jump about in a safe standing area for 90 min+.Its just not like it was in sk3 at filbo.I cant see that atmosphere ever coming back imo! As for the ground.I think the new concourse and fanzone  will be great,however the estimated 7500 extra seats won’t cut it for me.We could fill 40k now,and if the club are striving to be a top six side even more fans will want to go down.Does anyone know if their is infrastructure in place to expand beyond 40k??

I agree about Dons.Nice looking stadium inside.The LCFC diagram looks really impressive.Will be fantastic for the local area,and not just on match days!Exciting times!!

[Speedwell 🦊]

8 hours ago, Speedwell 🦊 said:

I can’t see everyone wanting to stand and jump about in a safe standing area for 90 min+.Its just not like it was in sk3 at filbo.I cant see that atmosphere ever coming back imo! As for the ground.I think the new concourse and fanzone  will be great,however the estimated 7500 extra seats won’t cut it for me.We could fill 40k now,and if the club are striving to be a top six side even more fans will want to go down.Does anyone know if their is infrastructure in place to expand beyond 40k??

I agree about Dons.Nice looking stadium inside.The LCFC diagram looks really impressive.Will be fantastic for the local area,and not just on match days!Exciting times!!