The VAR thread

[The Doctor]

A video ref is ultimately the future, particularly with the amount of money on the line (how much did Bournemouth lose out on in those two years out because they forgot to turn on the goal line tech at villa in the 19/20 season), but if you want it to work you need a roots and branches reform of PGMOL, because the refs just aren't good enough in general and putting them behind a monitor isn't making their judgement better

[Dahnsouff]

5 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

I think its just becoming too complicated and in that moment the officials are tying themselves in knots. Personally, time to sack off VAR for anything other than clear and obvious errors until they have tested new tech for off-sides somewhere else. I don't think the PL should be a testing ground for the tech right now. Getting old men to draw lines on monitors during fast paced games is a crazy system. 

Personally think the PL should definitely be a testing ground for tech, 100%.

 

Ask IBM or some such to make an AI based system to draw the lines, flag off sides, etc and take it out of hands of individuals. 

 

The benefits to both parties are almost immeasurable, and the only losers are the old men in smokey Stockley Park basements. 

 

Never happen due to vested interests but it should

[coolhandfox]

Still think they could learn from cricket.

 

Like umpires call on LBW, anything less then 12 inches, goes with the on field lines man.

 

That way you get rid of the really howlers, but don't slow down the game.

[yorkie1999]

Get rid. Instead of talking about a bad decision from the linos and refs, we're now talking about bad decisions from VAR, the linos and refs, and none of them are accountable.

[Spudulike]

I'm not convinced that we should now ditch VAR. It's too late, the genie is out of the bottle. 

 

Virtually every week we were being outraged by mistakes made by on pitch referees pre-VAR. Accusations of unconscious bias towards certain teams aplenty. 

 

We are now outraged because the off-field officials still make mistakes despite having time and technology to get it right. However, I would argue that less obvious mistakes are now being made but it's increasingly highlighted as we can also see the lines etc. 

 

I say stick with it but work urgently to get it right. It can't be beyond the wit of man, can it. 

[jmono84]

Teams will have to be more like us and score so many goals we can afford a legitimate goal being disallowed!!

[Chelmofox]

57 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Personally think the PL should definitely be a testing ground for tech, 100%.

 

Ask IBM or some such to make an AI based system to draw the lines, flag off sides, etc and take it out of hands of individuals. 

 

The benefits to both parties are almost immeasurable, and the only losers are the old men in smokey Stockley Park basements. 

 

Never happen due to vested interests but it should

Didn't make myself clear. Use PL games to test tech by all means, but implement in the matches when tested and the tech in understood. This might already be happening to be honest and why we are in this funny middle ground. 

[krelm]

Did VAR draw the lines wrong in our match too?  The spurs player at the top looks ahead of Dier as blue line goes through top of his head.  

[Super_horns]

1 hour ago, Spudulike said:

I'm not convinced that we should now ditch VAR. It's too late, the genie is out of the bottle. 

 

Virtually every week we were being outraged by mistakes made by on pitch referees pre-VAR. Accusations of unconscious bias towards certain teams aplenty. 

 

We are now outraged because the off-field officials still make mistakes despite having time and technology to get it right. However, I would argue that less obvious mistakes are now being made but it's increasingly highlighted as we can also see the lines etc. 

 

I say stick with it but work urgently to get it right. It can't be beyond the wit of man, can it. 

Maybe people just needed to accept officials will make errors like everyone else rather than having Sky etc looking at every incident.
 

Basically that is why VAR came in as people thought it would bring perfection and there wasn’t going to be any debates .

 

As you say it’s worse than ever !

[Super_horns]

2 hours ago, justfoxes said:

So incompetent it’s as if they are incapable of using the technology correctly In The way it was bought in for and for John Moss to not draw the lines to check for offside but try and judge for himself is incompetent, what if that decision he made was the difference of a team being relegated therefore losing Funds etc and having to streamline work force within the club it’s diabolical, I still say ex players and Computer nerds should be employed by VAR PGMOL rather than these incompetent arrogant officials !

I thought it was Lee Mason but either way was very poor usage of a basic system .

[westernpark]

Just get rid of it. No debate. Ruins football as a fan, because those collection of moments that you might remember throughout your life of celebrating goals, all adhere to a VAR check.

[goose2010]

23 minutes ago, krelm said:

Did VAR draw the lines wrong in our match too?  The spurs player at the top looks ahead of Dier as blue line goes through top of his head.  

can clearly see from that the Kel has already played the ball too. 

 

So it should be taken a frame back at least. 

 

Its a joke, either get rid or if its that close the decision has to be the ref and their officials on the pitch. 

[Death by Football]

I hate the way it takes the edge off goal celebrations but I think it's too late to remove it altogether.

The issue is not the technology but the fact they are trying to make an empirical decision based on subjective rules.  As long as the decision relies on a human to evaluate and decide according to their reading of the rule book it will never work as it should and you may as well have the onfield ref making the decision without assistance.

If they applied clearer rules that could be empirically applied to over-rule clear and obvious errors it would be fine.  For instance if they changed the offside criteria to there being daylight (an actual gap) between the defender and attacker it would be very quick and easy to see if someone is off or not.

[OwnGoal]

3 minutes ago, goose2010 said:

can clearly see from that the Kel has already played the ball too. 

 

So it should be taken a frame back at least. 

 

Its a joke, either get rid or if its that close the decision has to be the ref and their officials on the pitch. 

On top of that I’m not sure the offside line is entirely straight. Doesn’t look 100% parallel with the penalty box. Maybe an optical illusion but looks further away towards the bottom.  

Edited 13 February 2023 by OwnGoal

[Chelmofox]

9 minutes ago, Death by Football said:

I hate the way it takes the edge off goal celebrations but I think it's too late to remove it altogether.

The issue is not the technology but the fact they are trying to make an empirical decision based on subjective rules.  As long as the decision relies on a human to evaluate and decide according to their reading of the rule book it will never work as it should and you may as well have the onfield ref making the decision without assistance.

If they applied clearer rules that could be empirically applied to over-rule clear and obvious errors it would be fine.  For instance if they changed the offside criteria to there being daylight (an actual gap) between the defender and attacker it would be very quick and easy to see if someone is off or not.

All you do is move the problem a bit further away. You now how to define what an actual gap means and if that gap appears between 2 frames where the player who passed the ball may or may not have actually been touching it then how do you determine what is what. 

 

Its all made more complicated by understanding perspectives which often looked warped on screens and screenshots.

 

In my view, until the tech is ready to handle the above in realtime without grandads drawing lines on computers and getting stressed to make quick decisions, move to 'clear and obvious' and put the onus on the linesman. In the above the margins are so tight that the linesman couldn't have made an error. Likewise, accept the same if the linesman had flagged offside then go with his decision. No one is benefiting from this incident being given offside or us arguing the toss about it for days.  

[yorkie1999]

I think the main problem is that they are trying to over analyse offsides, it's suppossed to be a clear and obvious mistakes, as on sturday, if it's taking a couple of minutes to check, it can't really be counted as clear and obvious can it. They should have a 15 second limit and the ref should be asking for it to be used.

[Chelmofox]

20 minutes ago, OwnGoal said:

On top of that I’m not sure the offside line is entirely straight. Doesn’t look 100% parallel with the penalty box. Maybe an optical illusion but looks further away towards the bottom.  

Perspectives. It will be straight as will the goal line. This is the hardest part of the whole thing and why the lines are used.

[Chelmofox]

Just now, yorkie1999 said:

I think the main problem is that they are trying to over analyse offsides, it's suppossed to be a clear and obvious mistakes, as on sturday, if it's taking a couple of minutes to check, it can't really be counted as clear and obvious can it. They should have a 15 second limit and the ref should be asking for it to be used.

Last post from me - promise! This is the problem with offsides, they are not part of the clear and obvious rule. They have to come up with a definitive answer. Because of this they have to keep analysing them until they come up with an answer. Until the tech is ready to automate, i think offsides should move to clear and obvious. But they won't change it, as we are too far into this mess and i think the vision is to move to an automated system at some point soon.

[KrefelderFox666]

1 minute ago, yorkie1999 said:

I think the main problem is that they are trying to over analyse offsides, it's suppossed to be a clear and obvious mistakes, as on sturday, if it's taking a couple of minutes to check, it can't really be counted as clear and obvious can it. They should have a 15 second limit and the ref should be asking for it to be used.

I think get rid of drawing the lines. Have a look at the replay and if the player looks offside or not (clearly) then overturn the decision. If you can't disprove the ref's decision after 30 seconds of viewing replays, then stick with it.

 

There will still be situations missed but no worse than now and it will be much quicker.

 

Looking at just the replay (no lines), Barnes looks on. Only once the lines are drawn (assuming correctly) does he become a toe offside.

[Unabomber]

This weekend shows why they need to bin it. They have it and still got decisions wrong. No excuse whatsoever for that Chelsea pen and Brentford goal. Then you have these stupid offside calls too. Some ideas just don’t work and this is one of them. Stick to goal line technology and let’s carry on.

[Death by Football]

6 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

All you do is move the problem a bit further away. You now how to define what an actual gap means and if that gap appears between 2 frames where the player who passed the ball may or may not have actually been touching it then how do you determine what is what. 

 

Its all made more complicated by understanding perspectives which often looked warped on screens and screenshots.

 

In my view, until the tech is ready to handle the above in realtime without grandads drawing lines on computers and getting stressed to make quick decisions, move to 'clear and obvious' and put the onus on the linesman. In the above the margins are so tight that the linesman couldn't have made an error. Likewise, accept the same if the linesman had flagged offside then go with his decision. No one is benefiting from this incident being given offside or us arguing the toss about it for days.  

I agree the onus should be on the onfield ref and assistant.  But it's still subjective as to what is a clear and obvious error.

I much preferred the pre-VAR system of allowing refs to be human and accepting that sometimes it goes for you and sometimes it doesn't.  But I don't see a way back to that.

[Spudulike]

41 minutes ago, Super_horns said:

Maybe people just needed to accept officials will make errors like everyone else rather than having Sky etc looking at every incident.
 

Basically that is why VAR came in as people thought it would bring perfection and there wasn’t going to be any debates .

 

As you say it’s worse than ever !

It isn't improving, that's for sure. Sadly the alternative is actually worse, in my opinion. 

 

Not forgetting that we most likely wouldn't have won the FA Cup without VAR. 

 

 

[fuchsntf]

 

I can't understand why VAR officials,

are not supplied with same tools for each individual Stadium. 

Then fixed prompts are forced on them,like lines over the field. Similar line thickness. Fouls/penalties I don't think they should be involved, only when Ref requests angles,but not end descision.They should be able to advise ref to look at incidents,but again ref makes the descision.

VAR should not make end descisions.

Offside..decide on an agreed width where defenders and most fans will be satisfied...If a forward gains advantage,under half body width,then defender has a problem...

Body extremities,head, foot ,hand ,arm

should not be considered offside.

If defenders know there is only marginals,they will always want to check..Football is about goals,or chances created,bonded with good defensive play,on enticing offside,but not on small margins...

Ref should inform the crowd,with specific hand arm movement,that VAR is being looked at, but decides for short to play on.Then VAR advises ref to take a look,or ref again requests support of detailed tools..

And then the VAR must have all prompts ready available...

 

VAR during the season should have an agreed 4 checkpoints,where rules can be newly accommodated,due to unexpected events..

 

These would be my own criteria..with slight re-assesment because of new turn of events,covering last paragraph.

 

 

[J. James]

2 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

Still think they could learn from cricket.

 

Like umpires call on LBW, anything less then 12 inches, goes with the on field lines man.

 

That way you get rid of the really howlers, but don't slow down the game.

Yep, one of the many problems with the present use of technology is that it is not possible for human beings to be as accurate as the camera and so by increasing the width of the line as you suggest would add the "human element" as is done in cricket.

 

If its there to stop "clear and obvious errors" then the tolerances must be what a human being is capable of seeing in real time.

 

Almost 100% of spectators are human so tailor the decisions to human senses not bloody computers!

[Guest Lcfc82]

Should be binned off but won’t be because it means admitting they shouldn’t of introduced it in the 1st place.

 

Adds nothing positive at all for the match going fan.