Brexit!

[Leicester_Loyal]

 

[WigstonWanderer]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Well of course you do, you aren't interested in facts or Erskine May, you just like a speaker who helps the cause you support and wilfully now seem to ignore this opens up precedent for others to do the same in the future which is terrible, such short term thinking.

 

Can you explain to me how fair and democratic it is that MP's stand on one manifesto they don't implement it? Do the people of Bracknell really now have to accept being represented by a Lib Dem MP? 

 

Would you be so tolerant if the MP for Cambridge just decided to campaign for a 2nd ref then after being elected switched to the Tories and demanded a hard Brexit? My feeling is that you wouldn't then be upholding the rights of that person or instructing the speaker to do so.

 

As for parliament being split down the middle as the public is -  around 75% of parliament voted to Remain.

 

Sorry but anyone who still defends Bercow is either so blinded by a desire to remain they've lost sight of what the job is supposed to be, or they are just lying.

For you, “Remain” is like an indelible tattoo that can’t be removed. Remainers may as well walk along ringing a bell, and calling “unclean, unclean”. Practically all the Tory remainers I’ve heard seem pretty committed to leaving the EU, though not necessarily on the same terms as the ERG would like.

 

In a similar way, some Labour MPs would go along with a pretty hard Brexit from what I can tell (Kate Hoey, etc) which was not the Labour Party’s position at the last election. All parties except Tories & DUP campaigned on a soft Brexit as I understand, and even the Tories made little mention of No Deal.

 

A soft Brexit would still probably get through the House, but no one has offered that. By going for more extreme versions of what was only ever a vague and flawed proposition, the whole project has been stymied because it doesn’t have a mandate in parliament.

 

As for the speaker’s role, I’m not sure what facts you are referring to, but the simple fact is that if the government had a majority, the speaker would not, and could not have provided facilities for parliament to take any independent action. His actions have simply ensured that parliament’s voice prevails. This is as it should be.

Edited 10 October 2019 by WigstonWanderer

[Guest MattP]

15 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

As for the speaker’s role, I’m not sure what facts you are referring to, but the simple fact is that if the government had a majority, the speaker would not, and could not have provided facilities for parliament to take any independent action. His actions have simply ensured that parliament’s voice prevails. This is as it should be.

I asked the question before but nobody answered. 

 

What in the speakers role is having clandestine meetings with backbenchers and members of the European parliament? Can you show me precedent of where that is "'as it should be"?

 

John Bercow was a good speaker to start with, but as he's gone on he's believed his own celebrity and is now using it for his own career, interviews on CNN, the ridiculous behaviour in parliament during PMQ's. The open airing of his own political views.

 

It's outrageous he's still sat there after the Panorama documentary on his bullying, anyone else would have at least had to step down and be the subject of an investigation. 

Edited 10 October 2019 by MattP

[HappyHamza]

If Boris has agreed to N.Ireland being in a permanent or semi-permanent customs union I'll be intrigued to hear how it's better than the backstop. 

[m4DD0gg]

Let's face it. The powers that be both seen and unseen, London and the South East and the minority side of the original referendum vote will never let us leave. 

[Foxin_Mad]

I think maybe I am missing the point here.

 

Please can someone explain what benefits we will actually see by being Brexited? especially a hard no deal Brexit. I am struggling to see any.

 

Whether we like it or not we live in a global economy. The ONLY was to make Brexit any form of success would be to become a mostly self sufficient island, where we make and buy our own stuff.

 

We are not going to do that, our tariffs document is stupid, punishing producers of local produce, or inferior imported crap. 

 

We need to be using this as an opportunity to turn the trade deficit around.

 

Any deals we do with other countries are likely to include some kind of movement clauses for people, we will likely have to share access to things and don't have the power to negotiate big deals alone. 

[Alf Bentley]

58 minutes ago, m4DD0gg said:

Let's face it. The powers that be both seen and unseen, London and the South East and the minority side of the original referendum vote will never let us leave. 

 

Just for factual accuracy....

 

Overall, the SE narrowly voted Leave by about the same margin as the UK nationally. Some areas of SE voted Remain, others voted Leave.

 

Map here (Leave areas in blue, Remain areas in yellow): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

[m4DD0gg]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

 

Just for factual accuracy....

 

Overall, the SE narrowly voted Leave by about the same margin as the UK nationally. Some areas of SE voted Remain, others voted Leave.

 

Map here (Leave areas in blue, Remain areas in yellow): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

Just for factual accuracy I was being sarcastic. 

 

And while we are talking facts the majority voted leave yet the butt hurt and pathetic excuse for a political system in this country are hell bent on not letting it happen. 

 

Wow just looked at that map in detail. The vast majority of England is made up of blue. 

Edited 11 October 2019 by m4DD0gg

[Alf Bentley]

6 minutes ago, m4DD0gg said:

 

Wow just looked at that map in detail. The vast majority of England is made up of blue. 

 

The vast majority of England is blue because most rural areas voted Leave and rural areas take up more space, though they have fewer people.

Most large cities (London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Bristol, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Cardiff & even mainly Unionist Belfast) voted Remain - but they take up less space on the map.

 

England voted Leave by 53.4% to 46.6%

Scotland voted Remain by 62% to 38%

Wales voted Leave by 52.5% to 47.5%

N. Ireland voted Remain by 55.8% to 44.2%

[m4DD0gg]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

 

The vast majority of England is blue because most rural areas voted Leave and rural areas take up more space, though they have fewer people.

Most large cities (London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Bristol, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Cardiff & even mainly Unionist Belfast) voted Remain - but they take up less space on the map.

 

England voted Leave by 53.4% to 46.6%

Scotland voted Remain by 62% to 38%

Wales voted Leave by 52.5% to 47.5%

N. Ireland voted Remain by 55.8% to 44.2%

Oh well. Fact remains the majority voted leave. 

[Manwell Pablo]

On 10/10/2019 at 07:53, MattP said:

Polling has barely moved from referendum day - I genuinely have no idea how you can come to the conclusions you have.

 

If the Tories (who are currently anything from 5 to 15 points ahead in polls) are finished they everyone else is already dead.

 

Lefties have been telling us the Conservative party has been dying since the 70's - it's a bit boring now to anyone over the age of 30.

 

On 10/10/2019 at 08:54, Jon the Hat said:

Wow.  What nonsense.  For start there is no consensus on that the question would be, and you forget that the polls said that last time.  There is without doubt a silent Brexit group who don't say they would vote leave because of the abuse they get.

 

The Tories are never finished,

 

Think you've both got your heads buried in the sand somewhat if you think there isn't a decent chance a second referendum wouldn't reverse the original result.

 

The sheer demographics around the difference of who would be voting this time alone would have a chance of swinging the pretty paper thin result alone, without even factoring in the fact the absolute mess they've made of the whole process convincing some less hardened brexit voters the other way. There would be very few who voted remain switching sides and you would expect an improved turn out in pro remain Scotland. 

[Alf Bentley]

Will be interesting to hear what has caused all the optimism about a Brexit Deal after the Johnson-Varadker talks.

 

I thought Varadker's body language was of a man trying to control smugness while Johnson's looked a bit subdued and sheepish.....might be misreading it, though, and a long way to go regardless of what's happened.

 

The New Statesman has heard interesting rumours. If there's any truth in them, expect the DUP and ERG hardliners to be spitting feathers later...and a few Labourites & Lib Dems to be looking nervous.

 

"The suggestion doing the rounds in Dublin is that Northern Ireland would leave the customs union - fulfilling, on paper at least, the DUP's demand for the whole UK to leave on the same terms - but be treated as if it hadn't, with EU tariffs applied at its ports and any difference with Britain's rebated to businesses. As for consent, Northern Ireland Secretary Julian Smith said last night that no one community would get a veto over the arrangements - and did not rule out putting them to a referendum. If you think that all sounds a bit like the sort of de facto Irish Sea border that the DUP has set its face like flint against for the duration of this process, then you'd be right. If you're old enough to remember the so-called customs partnership proposed by Theresa May last year - and subsequently rubbished by her own cabinet and many of her MPs - then this will also feel incredibly familiar. Both Arlene Foster and the hard Brexiteers of the European Research Group are keeping schtum for now, and have been careful to dismiss nothing. But, if the gist of this morning's reports are right, they have reason to be angry. Yet for Downing Street, the incentive to compromise is clear. If you are Johnson or Dominic Cummings, looking at a Parliament in which the DUP can no longer really be said to hold the whip hand, hearing 20 or more Labour MPs almost begging to vote for any deal, seeing the Tories who lost the whip over no-deal asking for the same, you noting that plenty of the 28 Spartans who voted against May's deal three times are now serving in your government, and that those who aren't are softening their opposition, and imagining the electoral dividends you've convinced yourself you might reap by just getting Brexit done... is it really so implausible that you'd execute this sort of u-turn? Of course, they are far, far from there yet. We might well look back at today's optimistic reporting as the prelude to another round of the blame game. If Johnson isn't willing to move as far as yesterday's statements implied, then expect things to fall apart very quickly. But, for the first time in his premiership, it is now just about possible to imagine a scenario in which he calls an election with a withdrawal agreement signed, sealed and delivered".

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, m4DD0gg said:

Just for factual accuracy I was being sarcastic. 

 

And while we are talking facts the majority voted leave yet the butt hurt and pathetic excuse for a political system in this country are hell bent on not letting it happen. 

 

Wow just looked at that map in detail. The vast majority of England is made up of blue. 

While we're talking in facts, that's an opinion - not a fact. And they've spent the past three years doing nowt but trying to get it to happen. It would have happened already if the most supposedly pro-Brexit MPs hadn't voted down May's deal.

[Guest MattP]

38 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

Think you've both got your heads buried in the sand somewhat if you think there isn't a decent chance a second referendum wouldn't reverse the original result.

 

The sheer demographics around the difference of who would be voting this time alone would have a chance of swinging the pretty paper thin result alone, without even factoring in the fact the absolute mess they've made of the whole process convincing some less hardened brexit voters the other way. There would be very few who voted remain switching sides and you would expect an improved turn out in pro remain Scotland. 

I've stated before its probably 50/50 - thought it's irrelevant anyway.

 

If a referendum was held tomorrow I think remain would win, although after another campaign I'm almost sure leave would win, especially fighting it on the issue of democracy. 

[Bobby Hundreds]

It would've been interesting if voting in the referendum had been mandatory (don't know should've been an option). Equally I wonder how many leavers/remainers have died since the referendum and how many have come into voting age. 

 

[Manwell Pablo]

21 minutes ago, MattP said:

I've stated before its probably 50/50 - thought it's irrelevant anyway.

 

If a referendum was held tomorrow I think remain would win, although after another campaign I'm almost sure leave would win, especially fighting it on the issue of democracy. 

 

2 minutes ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

It would've been interesting if voting in the referendum had been mandatory (don't know should've been an option). Equally I wonder how many leavers/remainers have died since the referendum and how many have come into voting age. 

 

 

This is what I was alluding to when I mentioned demographics. If we were to have another referendum you'd imagine, given we are going to have to have a GM first so by the time it finally rolls around you'd be looking at potentially in excess of four years so kids aged 14 (possibly even 13 depending on date) and upwards at the time of the first referendum would now be eligible to vote and we all know they are heavily majority remain, so they would be a huge influx of remain voters. 

 

I'm not sure that would work Matt to be honest, the younger new voters wont listen to it as they will view this first one irrelevant as they didn't vote in it, and like I say, you wont get many remainers changing their mind, what has the government done in the last 3 and a half years to change their mind? Nothing, they've just enforced the idea of one of the reasons I, and many others, voted remain. Brexit could be a good idea done properly and for the right reasons, but this lot are incompetent and selfish, so it's going to be a disaster.

[Bob Hazels shorts]

19 hours ago, MattP said:

I asked the question before but nobody answered. 

 

What in the speakers role is having clandestine meetings with backbenchers and members of the European parliament? Can you show me precedent of where that is "'as it should be"?

 

John Bercow was a good speaker to start with, but as he's gone on he's believed his own celebrity and is now using it for his own career, interviews on CNN, the ridiculous behaviour in parliament during PMQ's. The open airing of his own political views.

 

It's outrageous he's still sat there after the Panorama documentary on his bullying, anyone else would have at least had to step down and be the subject of an investigation. 

Insisted on creating a Creche in the Commons at a cost of + £1m, many against it.

Once open his kids were the only ones using it....well there's a surprise.

He's universally detested by the staff in the House of Commons

Edited 11 October 2019 by Bob Hazels shorts

[Jon the Hat]

20 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

 

I try really hard to remember that these Eurocrats don't represents our European friends and neighbours any more than they do us really.  They really are the out of touch elite.

[Jon the Hat]

Any new referendum would have to be fought on the basis of talking about the actual vision for the future - I want remainers to commit to a vision of where the EU is going, not just criticise leave for not knowing where Brexit will take us.  

[Winchesterfox]

8 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I try really hard to remember that these Eurocrats don't represents our European friends and neighbours any more than they do us really.  They really are the out of touch elite.

Unlike our Old Etionian and his hedge fund backers ...

[Benji]

20 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

 

Incorrect second quote I’m afraid.  Here is what he actually said:

 

“... I’ve been wondering what the special place in hell looks like for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it safely”

 

The tweet has been cut short to suit their agenda.  It’s a shame a lot of people seem to believe everything they read online.

[KrefelderFox666]

5 minutes ago, Benji said:

Incorrect second quote I’m afraid.  Here is what he actually said:

 

“... I’ve been wondering what the special place in hell looks like for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it safely”

 

The tweet has been cut short to suit their agenda.  It’s a shame a lot of people seem to believe everything they read online.

Or believe when a politician says something (like the benefits of Brexit that Johno and Farage drilled out and 17+ million believed).

 

Let's face it, politics is full of lies and people regularly fall for it. And it is hard to read and believe anything online unless there are some credible sources or it is recorded. Or one was present to see it for themselves. People are basing opinions on many things these days, it's all about their interpretation of words/articles etc.

[bovril]

I think we'll end up with a Brexit that leaves NI in the EU economic sphere. Will be interesting to see if Brexit voters accept this after all their talk of 'no surrender'. 

[Benji]

10 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

Or believe when a politician says something (like the benefits of Brexit that Johno and Farage drilled out and 17+ million believed).

 

Let's face it, politics is full of lies and people regularly fall for it. And it is hard to read and believe anything online unless there are some credible sources or it is recorded. Or one was present to see it for themselves. People are basing opinions on many things these days, it's all about their interpretation of words/articles etc.

To be honest I try not to engage in whataboutery (though I’m sure if someone could be bothered they’d be able to dig up a quote of when I’ve done it).  If I see something that’s clearly bullshit I’ll point it out.  If people were more accountable for what they said and published then the average person on the street who doesn’t have the time or interest to read everything could base their decisions on something more reflective of the truth.  You only have to look at the comments on that tweet to see the impact it has.

Edited 11 October 2019 by Benji

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

I think we'll end up with a Brexit that leaves NI in the EU economic sphere. Will be interesting to see if Brexit voters accept this after all their talk of 'no surrender'. 

There's a proportion of Brexit voters who will never accept anything other than the fantasy vision they were sold. Just hope the majority recognise what's proposed is the best they're going to get.