Brexit!

[Guest MattP]

13 hours ago, HappyHamza said:

If a deal is brought back it needs to have a second referendum attached to it and then be voted through.  Its time we finally got a final decision from the people one way or another, fully informed about what the leave option is.

And then a third I imagine if we choose to leave again.

 

Why on earth would any leave voter trust you to uphold the result if it doesn't go your way? They wouldn't and rightfully so.

[Wymsey]

Got offered 'The Brexiteer' newspaper earlier in town.

Might be a good paper to read tonight to nod off..

[bovril]

2 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

Got offered 'The Brexiteer' newspaper earlier in town.

Might be a good paper to read tonight to nod off..

Keep hold of it...

 

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-bums-rush-no-deal-could-wipe-out-toilet-paper-stocks-11831093

[WigstonWanderer]

11 minutes ago, bovril said:

Keep hold of it...

 

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-bums-rush-no-deal-could-wipe-out-toilet-paper-stocks-11831093

I remember the great toilet roll shortage of ‘71 (or was it ‘72, some time around then anyway). Dad used to come round in the morning with a few squares and that had to last. I think it was a shortage anyway. He could have just been on some sort of economy drive. We ‘ad it tuff in them days.

[Strokes]

23 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

I remember the great toilet roll shortage of ‘71 (or was it ‘72, some time around then anyway). Dad used to come round in the morning with a few squares and that had to last. I think it was a shortage anyway. He could have just been on some sort of economy drive. We ‘ad it tuff in them days.

I think that still goes on in wigston to be fair.

[HappyHamza]

On 12/10/2019 at 13:46, MattP said:

And then a third I imagine if we choose to leave again.

 

Why on earth would any leave voter trust you to uphold the result if it doesn't go your way? They wouldn't and rightfully so.

Grow up.

It's clearly the right thing to do democratically given the current state of pubkic opinion, the wide gap between vote leave promises and reality and fact it was a vote based on theory rather than reality. 

If a version of leave gets the people's backing then it would be a version that exists and is ready to implement. 

If the people look at the final options and decide that they'd prefer remain then that also is immediately actionable. 

The idea that remainers in parliament have attempted to ignore the will of the people is demonstrably false. We have a divided parliament over the issue because the people are divided and returned a divided parliament AFTER the referendum. 

The majority of MPs have voted for different versions of brexit already.  If the ERG had backed Teresa May we'd have been out months ago.  But they didn't.  And peoole like you argued that it was because the deal was bad. Yet it looks very much as if Boris is going to bring back a deal very similar to the one that saw him resign from the cabinet. 

The only democratic thing to do now is give the final say to the people.

Edited 13 October 2019 by HappyHamza

[Leicester_Loyal]

'We cannot possible leave with no-deal, we need a deal!'

 

Now we could potentially have got a deal we need a second referendum with Remain included in it.

 

Forgive me for not trusting the next referendum result to be honoured.

Edited 13 October 2019 by Leicester_Loyal

[HappyHamza]

40 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

'We cannot possible leave with no-deal, we need a deal!'

 

Now we could potentially have got a deal we need a second referendum with Remain included in it.

 

Forgive me for not trusting the next referendum result to be honoured.

We had a deal under TM that wasn't deemed to be brexity enough for the ERG.

 

The government has spent the last three years implementing the referendum. 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, HappyHamza said:

We had a deal under TM that wasn't deemed to be brexity enough for the ERG.

 

The government has spent the last three years implementing the referendum. 

If boris agrees a deal with the EU and it passes parliament, why should we have another referendum? 

[Claridge]

1 hour ago, HappyHamza said:

Grow up.

It's clearly the right thing to do democratically given the current state of pubkic opinion, the wide gap between vote leave promises and reality and fact it was a vote based on theory rather than reality. 

If a version of leave gets the people's backing then it would be a version that exists and is ready to implement. 

If the people look at the final options and decide that they'd prefer remain then that also is immediately actionable. 

The idea that remainers in parliament have attempted to ignore the will of the people is demonstrably false. We have a divided parliament over the issue because the people are divided and returned a divided parliament AFTER the referendum. 

The majority of MPs have voted for different versions of brexit already.  If the ERG had backed Teresa May we'd have been out months ago.  But they didn't.  And peoole like you argued that it was because the deal was bad. Yet it looks very much as if Boris is going to bring back a deal very similar to the one that saw him resign from the cabinet. 

The only democratic thing to do now is give the final say to the people.

We should have a vote every week until remain wins, that’s the most democratic thing to do.

[twoleftfeet]

2 hours ago, HappyHamza said:

Grow up.

It's clearly the right thing to do democratically given the current state of pubkic opinion, the wide gap between vote leave promises and reality and fact it was a vote based on theory rather than reality. 

If a version of leave gets the people's backing then it would be a version that exists and is ready to implement. 

If the people look at the final options and decide that they'd prefer remain then that also is immediately actionable. 

The idea that remainers in parliament have attempted to ignore the will of the people is demonstrably false. We have a divided parliament over the issue because the people are divided and returned a divided parliament AFTER the referendum. 

The majority of MPs have voted for different versions of brexit already.  If the ERG had backed Teresa May we'd have been out months ago.  But they didn't.  And peoole like you argued that it was because the deal was bad. Yet it looks very much as if Boris is going to bring back a deal very similar to the one that saw him resign from the cabinet. 

The only democratic thing to do now is give the final say to the people.

And do you not think that because the majority of mps have voted for different versions of brexit the only question needed in a second is which sort of brexit we should have. Not a rerun of the referendum.

[WigstonWanderer]

3 hours ago, HappyHamza said:

Grow up.

It's clearly the right thing to do democratically given the current state of pubkic opinion, the wide gap between vote leave promises and reality and fact it was a vote based on theory rather than reality. 

If a version of leave gets the people's backing then it would be a version that exists and is ready to implement. 

If the people look at the final options and decide that they'd prefer remain then that also is immediately actionable. 

The idea that remainers in parliament have attempted to ignore the will of the people is demonstrably false. We have a divided parliament over the issue because the people are divided and returned a divided parliament AFTER the referendum. 

The majority of MPs have voted for different versions of brexit already.  If the ERG had backed Teresa May we'd have been out months ago.  But they didn't.  And peoole like you argued that it was because the deal was bad. Yet it looks very much as if Boris is going to bring back a deal very similar to the one that saw him resign from the cabinet. 

The only democratic thing to do now is give the final say to the people.

Very well put.

[WigstonWanderer]

2 hours ago, Claridge said:

We should have a vote every week until remain wins, that’s the most democratic thing to do.

Read what he actually wrote.

[WigstonWanderer]

1 hour ago, twoleftfeet said:

And do you not think that because the majority of mps have voted for different versions of brexit the only question needed in a second is which sort of brexit we should have. Not a rerun of the referendum.

No. In a democracy, the people have a perfect right to change their mind. In this case, one the biggest ever decisions and totally irreversible, it is more important than ever that the the final deal is really what the majority want versus the existing arrangements. I’m genuinely surprised that this isn’t self evident to anyone who calls themselves a democrat.

 

As just about anyone who has argued for this has said, a second vote would be a simple ratification of something actually deliverable. The legislation would already be in place and would automatically become law upon approval. There would be no scope for a third referendum.

Edited 13 October 2019 by WigstonWanderer

[Claridge]

1 hour ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Read what he actually wrote.

3 years of blah, blah,blah. Can’t read any more. 

[The Guvnor]

13 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

No. In a democracy, the people have a perfect right to change their mind. In this case, one the biggest ever decisions and totally irreversible, it is more important than ever that the the final deal is really what the majority want versus the existing arrangements. I’m genuinely surprised that this isn’t self evident to anyone who calls themselves a democrat.

 

As just about anyone who has argued for this has said, a second vote would be a simple ratification of something actually deliverable. The legislation would already be in place and would automatically become law upon approval. There would be no scope for a third referendum.

We are in this position because of absolute dog sh#t negotiating and p#ss poor decision making, crowned off nicely by calling for a snap General election in 2017. The EU never felt that we were serious about leaving without a deal, confirmed by Barnier  as he stated it had never been mentioned at the negotiating table, and that is why we are in this mess.

Remainers will say, have said, that any deal now 'cannot be improved upon', 'now we know what is deliverable' etc etc. 

From this leavers perspective it is fcuking criminal that this level of ineptitude has been dragged out for three years and serious negotiations for any change to the WA  have only taken place since the EU actually believed we were prepared to leave without a deal. Then hey fcuking presto the Benn bill was rushed through Parliament which has almost certainly not helped our negotiating team.

And now a confirmatory vote is being asked for...….Sigh

 

 

 

[Beechey]

Do we actually know what this new breakthrough deal might actually be?

[Dr The Singh]

24 minutes ago, Beechey said:

Do we actually know what this new breakthrough deal might actually be?

Burger King are bringing there 'impossible burger' to the UK before the EU

[Winchesterfox]

9 hours ago, The Guvnor said:

We are in this position because of absolute dog sh#t negotiating and p#ss poor decision making, crowned off nicely by calling for a snap General election in 2017. The EU never felt that we were serious about leaving without a deal, confirmed by Barnier  as he stated it had never been mentioned at the negotiating table, and that is why we are in this mess.

Remainers will say, have said, that any deal now 'cannot be improved upon', 'now we know what is deliverable' etc etc. 

From this leavers perspective it is fcuking criminal that this level of ineptitude has been dragged out for three years and serious negotiations for any change to the WA  have only taken place since the EU actually believed we were prepared to leave without a deal. Then hey fcuking presto the Benn bill was rushed through Parliament which has almost certainly not helped our negotiating team.

And now a confirmatory vote is being asked for...….Sigh

 

One of the myths of Brexit is that we hold all the cards and can get a great deal.  We could be out by now if the Tories had chosen red lines that were achievable, but even then the deal would have been damage limitation.  It's taken three years for the government to work out that the EU27 are in a much stronger negotiating position. (Who would have thought that 27 countries in a club have more power than the one who signed up to the rules but now wants to leave?)  The reason there are talks now is because Boris is making concessions, not because the EU27 are afraid of no deal, which would hurt the UK infinitely more times than them. 

[Guest MattP]

16 hours ago, HappyHamza said:

The majority of MPs have voted for different versions of brexit already.  If the ERG had backed Teresa May we'd have been out months ago.  But they didn't.  And peoole like you argued that it was because the deal was bad.

Fake news, totally false. Actually watch or listen to some in depth political shows.

 

Theresa May's deal lost by 58 votes on its final attempt to pass through parliament, 24 members of the ERG went against it.

 

So even if the whole ERG voted for it it still didn't pass parliament, stop parroting untrue clichés that you've read in the Guardian. 

[The Guvnor]

1 hour ago, Winchesterfox said:

One of the myths of Brexit is that we hold all the cards and can get a great deal.  We could be out by now if the Tories had chosen red lines that were achievable, but even then the deal would have been damage limitation.  It's taken three years for the government to work out that the EU27 are in a much stronger negotiating position. (Who would have thought that 27 countries in a club have more power than the one who signed up to the rules but now wants to leave?)  The reason there are talks now is because Boris is making concessions, not because the EU27 are afraid of no deal, which would hurt the UK infinitely more times than them. 

I can't ever remember anyone suggesting we hold all the ace cards. But don't forget  we are one of the largest contributors to ' The Club' and that would leave a massive hole in the EU project budget,  so yes we do have considerable clout, and be under no illusions they are desperate for us to continue with that contribution. 

It was always suggested that the negotiations would only get serious towards the 'witching hour' so the Benn bill was seriously not helpful for our negotiating stance. 

 

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Fake news, totally false. Actually watch or listen to some in depth political shows.

 

Theresa May's deal lost by 58 votes on its final attempt to pass through parliament, 24 members of the ERG went against it.

 

So even if the whole ERG voted for it it still didn't pass parliament, stop parroting untrue clichés that you've read in the Guardian. 

 

I assume your figure of 24 ERG voting against is accurate. It certainly looks accurate, as 34 Tories voted against, but some of them were second-referendum types.

So, while the 34 Tory votes would have been enough to pass May's Deal, the 24 ERG votes would not.

 

However, 10 DUP MPs also voted against that final reading. So, if the 24 ERG + 10 DUP had voted the other way, May's Deal would have passed.

The vote would have been 320-310 in favour, instead of 286-344 against.

 

So, it is true to say that Brexit would have already happened, had it not been for the opposition of those ERG & DUP MPs.

 

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-29/division/B6052BBD-43BE-4A30-8365-E3A8B108009E/UnitedKingdom’SWithdrawalFromTheEuropeanUnion?outputType=Party

 

[Winchesterfox]

56 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

I can't ever remember anyone suggesting we hold all the ace cards. But don't forget  we are one of the largest contributors to ' The Club' and that would leave a massive hole in the EU project budget,  so yes we do have considerable clout, and be under no illusions they are desperate for us to continue with that contribution. 

It was always suggested that the negotiations would only get serious towards the 'witching hour' so the Benn bill was seriously not helpful for our negotiating stance. 

Michael Gove said it a couple of months before the referendum  :'The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want'   One of the many lies Brexiter politicians told about how easy and advantageous leaving would be.  There are loads more on Google.

 

You're right that the UK is a net contributor, but there is no chance the EU will bend to UK demands that break its founding principles or undermine the Good Friday Agreement.  The days of empire and WWII are long gone.  We are not as powerful or as important to Europe as Brexiter politicians think we are.  

[Terraloon]

18 hours ago, HappyHamza said:

Grow up.

It's clearly the right thing to do democratically given the current state of pubkic opinion, the wide gap between vote leave promises and reality and fact it was a vote based on theory rather than reality. 

If a version of leave gets the people's backing then it would be a version that exists and is ready to implement. 

If the people look at the final options and decide that they'd prefer remain then that also is immediately actionable. 

The idea that remainers in parliament have attempted to ignore the will of the people is demonstrably false. We have a divided parliament over the issue because the people are divided and returned a divided parliament AFTER the referendum. 

The majority of MPs have voted for different versions of brexit already.  If the ERG had backed Teresa May we'd have been out months ago.  But they didn't.  And peoole like you argued that it was because the deal was bad. Yet it looks very much as if Boris is going to bring back a deal very similar to the one that saw him resign from the cabinet. 

The only democratic thing to do now is give the final say to the people.

Saying they have voted on different versions of Brexit is simply not the case 
 

MPs  voted on and agreed to hold a referendum, they then voted on and agreed legislation to invoke Article 50, they then voted on and agreed the EU withdraw legislation so in effect the only thing they need to ask in any referendum is do we enter the transitional period following withdraw with a no deal or TM deal or BJs deal ( if he gets one.)

 

 

 

 

[Terraloon]

29 minutes ago, Winchesterfox said:

Michael Gove said it a couple of months before the referendum  :'The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want'   One of the many lies Brexiter politicians told about how easy and advantageous leaving would be.  There are loads more on Google.

 

You're right that the UK is a net contributor, but there is no chance the EU will bend to UK demands that break its founding principles or undermine the Good Friday Agreement.  The days of empire and WWII are long gone.  We are not as powerful or as important to Europe as Brexiter politicians think we are.  

Sorry but this is simplistic.

 

Leaving would have been easy if politicians had honoured the manifesto promises the majority of them got elected on their failures and their playing political games significantly undermined the UKs negotiating position there’s where the difficulty is.
 

Without the UKs net contributions the whole financial structure of the EU comes under significant pressure as it would if France and Germany withdrew but to dismiss the importance of the UK suits your take but it’s simply not the case.There is no way that significant budget cuts leading to a massive curtailment of the EU funding of projects wouldn’t have to follow the UKs withdraw that is unless the 6 or so other nett contributors increased their payments and that seems unlikely.