Brexit!

[Alf Bentley]

Barnier channels Swiss Toni from The Fast Show....

 

 

[Strokes]

40 minutes ago, Benji said:

Incorrect second quote I’m afraid.  Here is what he actually said:

 

“... I’ve been wondering what the special place in hell looks like for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it safely”

 

The tweet has been cut short to suit their agenda.  It’s a shame a lot of people seem to believe everything they read online.

Yeah, it’s similar to the Liam fox quote on ‘the easiest deal in history’, that gets bandied around. I wish people would research what they post better. 

[Facecloth]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah, it’s similar to the Liam fox quote on ‘the easiest deal in history’, that gets bandied around. I wish people would research what they post better. 

What's the actual quote then?

[Benji]

8 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah, it’s similar to the Liam fox quote on ‘the easiest deal in history’, that gets bandied around. I wish people would research what they post better. 

Maybe we need a Foxestalk equivalent of the BBC fact checker.  I nominate Alf, his posts are usually TL;DR so I assume they’re completely factual (and well researched)...

Edited 11 October 2019 by Benji

[Charl91]

27 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah, it’s similar to the Liam fox quote on ‘the easiest deal in history’, that gets bandied around. I wish people would research what they post better. 

 

21 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

What's the actual quote then?

This is the Liam Fox quote. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40667879/eu-trade-deal-easiest-in-human-history

 

Must admit I hadn't heard it in context before either, and having listened to it, I will agree that the quote is widely used out of context. He says it should be the easiest trade deal, because our rules and regulations are in alignment, etc, and he goes on to caveat it with "the only reason we wouldn't come to an agreement is because politics gets in the way of economics". 

 

So not quite as bad as it first sounds, though it is still a pretty stupid thing to say to be honest, because that "only reason" is quite a hefty one. 

[Strokes]

27 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

What's the actual quote then?

It’s not so much the quote but the context, he is talking about a free trade deal not the withdrawal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40667879/eu-trade-deal-easiest-in-human-history

[Alf Bentley]

BBC lunchtime news on Brexit:

 

- There's light at the end of the tunnel

- Despite rumours, we don't really know what the light is

- Negotiations intensified, but unclear whether we're in the tunnel yet

 

Half Man Half Biscuit would have words of caution at this point....

 

 

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, Manwell Pablo said:

This is what I was alluding to when I mentioned demographics. If we were to have another referendum you'd imagine, given we are going to have to have a GM first so by the time it finally rolls around you'd be looking at potentially in excess of four years so kids aged 14 (possibly even 13 depending on date) and upwards at the time of the first referendum would now be eligible to vote and we all know they are heavily majority remain, so they would be a huge influx of remain voters. 

 

I'm not sure that would work Matt to be honest, the younger new voters wont listen to it as they will view this first one irrelevant as they didn't vote in it, and like I say, you wont get many remainers changing their mind, what has the government done in the last 3 and a half years to change their mind? Nothing, they've just enforced the idea of one of the reasons I, and many others, voted remain. Brexit could be a good idea done properly and for the right reasons, but this lot are incompetent and selfish, so it's going to be a disaster.

If you read any Peter Kellner or Matthew Goodwin they go into pretty good details on how overrated "demographic change" is when predicting electoral politics, you can find many quotes across the press from the 70's, 00's and bundles in 1997 about the Conservatives never winning an election again as it was only old people voting for them and the demographics left them no chance.

People change their political opinions and thoughts far more than many realise, I'd have voted remain up until the Lisbon treaty (although I thought a referendum on Maastrict was neccessary)  I mean the most obvious argument against it is that overwhelmingly exactly the same people who voted for us to join where then voting leave later on.

 

I'm not saying Leave would definitely win, but assuming results on potential demographics has always been extremely fallable as your cognitive behaviour changes as you get older, you become more conservative, more strict, more tradionational. the same might just be the same for political positions like leave.
 

1 hour ago, Benji said:

Incorrect second quote I’m afraid.  Here is what he actually said:

 

“... I’ve been wondering what the special place in hell looks like for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it safely”

 

The tweet has been cut short to suit their agenda.  It’s a shame a lot of people seem to believe everything they read online.

 

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Yeah, it’s similar to the Liam fox quote on ‘the easiest deal in history’, that gets bandied around. I wish people would research what they post better. 

Numerous examples of this....

 

Michael Gove - who is widely quoted as saying "We've had enough of experts" when the full quote was "People have had enough of experts consistently getting things wrong"

Jacob Rees-Mogg - "I do find it uplifting so many people donate to foodbanks" suddenly goes around on Facebook as him saying "foodbanks are uplifting"

This happens all over the place now from all sides and it is really time it is stopped.

[Alf Bentley]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

If you read any Peter Kellner or Matthew Goodwin they go into pretty good details on how overrated "demographic change" is when predicting electoral politics, you can find many quotes across the press from the 70's, 00's and bundles in 1997 about the Conservatives never winning an election again as it was only old people voting for them and the demographics left them no chance.

People change their political opinions and thoughts far more than many realise, I'd have voted remain up until the Lisbon treaty (although I thought a referendum on Maastrict was neccessary)  I mean the most obvious argument against it is that overwhelmingly exactly the same people who voted for us to join where then voting leave later on.

 

I'm not saying Leave would definitely win, but assuming results on potential demographics has always been extremely fallable as your cognitive behaviour changes as you get older, you become more conservative, more strict, more tradionational. the same might just be the same for political positions like leave.
 

 

Numerous examples of this....

 

Michael Gove - who is widely quoted as saying "We've had enough of experts" when the full quote was "People have had enough of experts consistently getting things wrong"

Jacob Rees-Mogg - "I do find it uplifting so many people donate to foodbanks" suddenly goes around on Facebook as him saying "foodbanks are uplifting"

This happens all over the place now from all sides and it is really time it is stopped.

 

Good post.

 

The generation who voted most heavily for Brexit were the generation of the Swinging Sixties, hippy festivals, peace and free love and flowers in their hair. 

Though it might have been the ones who stayed at home and missed out on all the free love.... 

 

I'm too young to remember it, but surprised to hear that people thought the Tories were doomed in the 70s: they won a majority in 1970 & 1979 and only lost narrowly (twice) in 1974.

 

I certainly remember such speculation after they were hammered in 1997 & 2001.....ironic, because there was the same speculation about Labour a few years earlier, particularly after they lost yet again in 1992. 

[Manwell Pablo]

14 minutes ago, MattP said:

If you read any Peter Kellner or Matthew Goodwin they go into pretty good details on how overrated "demographic change" is when predicting electoral politics, you can find many quotes across the press from the 70's, 00's and bundles in 1997 about the Conservatives never winning an election again as it was only old people voting for them and the demographics left them no chance.

People change their political opinions and thoughts far more than many realise, I'd have voted remain up until the Lisbon treaty (although I thought a referendum on Maastrict was neccessary)  I mean the most obvious argument against it is that overwhelmingly exactly the same people who voted for us to join where then voting leave later on.

 

I'm not saying Leave would definitely win, but assuming results on potential demographics has always been extremely fallable as your cognitive behaviour changes as you get older, you become more conservative, more strict, more tradionational. the same might just be the same for political positions like leave.
 

 

Numerous examples of this....

 

Michael Gove - who is widely quoted as saying "We've had enough of experts" when the full quote was "People have had enough of experts consistently getting things wrong"

Jacob Rees-Mogg - "I do find it uplifting so many people donate to foodbanks" suddenly goes around on Facebook as him saying "foodbanks are uplifting"

This happens all over the place now from all sides and it is really time it is stopped.

 

Oh absloutley but your sort of making irrelevant points here.  This isn't electoral politics we are talking about, nor does it really have anything to do with the Tory's as it's worth remembering before being totally hijacked by the Brexit Bunch the Tory party was a majority pro remain party

 

This is a referendum on EU membership which Leave won on a wafer thin thing margin, very different from an election, young people are much more engaged in this than your standard party politics and would be out in their droves to overturn the result, especially those aged 16-17 who felt they were having their future opportunities limited and not being given a say in the matter.  I wont bother going and fetching the source material as I'll get the old "the polls said remain would win last time" line but there have been studies done on this and it suggests those that did not vote in the last referendum voting remain would swing it in favor of a remain victory.

 

Also Dave Smith, 37,  from Sutton Coldfield isn't going to vote Leave after voting remain  four year later due to his cognitive behavior some how is he. Obviously people change their mind but and everything you say is true, however as I have already said, beside believing the original referendum result should be upheld for democratic reasons (I can't see this happening for reasons stated)  Remain voters have been given absoluty no reason since the last referendum to change their vote, we've been treated to the three years of political chaos unrest and  uncertainty we all thought we would be and also as I have already said the less hard line leave voters will be the ones changing their mind if anyone. 

 

Now I wouldn't guarantee Remain would win based on all of this, but I  I would be utterly amazed if it wasn't even closer. than it was last time at least.

 

It's all a bit irrelevant anyway as unfortunately there isn't a creadible remain party to vote for and the next GE and we will be dragged out by Boris in Janauary deal or no deal as a result.

[Spudulike]

I don't know if these latest developments are a breakthrough or not but I'm enjoying the misery on the faces of the BBC correspondents.

 

Still no details as to what was agreed with the T Shock yesterday that might have restarted the negotiations. However, last week No. 10 said they would be letting the EU commission, know, privately, how the UK Government will be swerving the Benn Legislation and therefore forcing a no-deal. Some speculation around that the EU have taken this seriously and therefore have finally concluded they must do a deal. I suppose that it will all become clear over the weekend. 

[Foxhateram]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47470864?fbclid=IwAR2To6NOtZPN3Cm9fEuglFr0cksm41yMiVmDDn10TW5fyqrSjfwbphZ1Zlw

[Parafox]

5 hours ago, MattP said:

If you read any Peter Kellner or Matthew Goodwin they go into pretty good details on how overrated "demographic change" is when predicting electoral politics, you can find many quotes across the press from the 70's, 00's and bundles in 1997 about the Conservatives never winning an election again as it was only old people voting for them and the demographics left them no chance.

People change their political opinions and thoughts far more than many realise, I'd have voted remain up until the Lisbon treaty (although I thought a referendum on Maastrict was neccessary)  I mean the most obvious argument against it is that overwhelmingly exactly the same people who voted for us to join where then voting leave later on.

 

I'm not saying Leave would definitely win, but assuming results on potential demographics has always been extremely fallable as your cognitive behaviour changes as you get older, you become more conservative, more strict, more tradionational. the same might just be the same for political positions like leave.
 

 

Numerous examples of this....

 

Michael Gove - who is widely quoted as saying "We've had enough of experts" when the full quote was "People have had enough of experts consistently getting things wrong"

Jacob Rees-Mogg - "I do find it uplifting so many people donate to foodbanks" suddenly goes around on Facebook as him saying "foodbanks are uplifting"

This happens all over the place now from all sides and it is really time it is stopped.

And becomes "fake news"

[HappyHamza]

If a deal is brought back it needs to have a second referendum attached to it and then be voted through.  Its time we finally got a final decision from the people one way or another, fully informed about what the leave option is.

[HappyHamza]

12 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

There's a proportion of Brexit voters who will never accept anything other than the fantasy vision they were sold. Just hope the majority recognise what's proposed is the best they're going to get.

The vision they were sold was in EFTA like Norway.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

4 minutes ago, HappyHamza said:

If a deal is brought back it needs to have a second referendum attached to it and then be voted through.  Its time we finally got a final decision from the people one way or another, fully informed about what the leave option is.

So the referendum would be: Deal vs No Deal

Yes?

 

 

[WigstonWanderer]

55 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

So the referendum would be: Deal vs No Deal

Yes?

 

 

No

[twoleftfeet]

9 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

So the referendum would be: Deal vs No Deal

Yes?

 

 

I think it should be by rights its a bit like a night out with friends you agree by a small majority to go for pizza get to the restaurant and then have to decide between pepperoni and margarita just for those that didnt want pizza to say the choice of nando's should still be available.

[HappyHamza]

10 minutes ago, twoleftfeet said:

I think it should be by rights its a bit like a night out with friends you agree by a small majority to go for pizza get to the restaurant and then have to decide between pepperoni and margarita just for those that didnt want pizza to say the choice of nando's should still be available.

It's absolutely nothing like that. 

 

One of the most ridiculous things is people trying to argue that more democracy is anti-democratic. 

 

And both JRM and Cummins have previously suggested two referendums.

 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indy100.com/article/brexit-second-referendum-dominic-cummings-boris-johnson-eu-9078981%3famp

 

[Innovindil]

19 minutes ago, HappyHamza said:

It's absolutely nothing like that. 

 

One of the most ridiculous things is people trying to argue that more democracy is anti-democratic. 

 

And both JRM and Cummins have previously suggested two referendums.

 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indy100.com/article/brexit-second-referendum-dominic-cummings-boris-johnson-eu-9078981%3famp

 

Well it sort of is. Let's be honest, people aren't calling for a second referendum to decide what sort of brexit we'll have, they're calling for a referendum to try and not have a brexit at all. There's no shame in admitting it, even though few choose to. 

 

The only problem I have with it is even if leave won (again), it would make no difference whatsoever to the current political climate. We'd still be exactly where we are now, with exactly the same people who disagree with it now still disagreeing. Hell, some high up politicians have already said as much. 

[Alf Bentley]

.

Edited 12 October 2019 by Alf Bentley

[st albans fox]

irrespective of which side of the fence you are, there are serious people out there proposing a second ref of deal v no deal v remain with a straight face ?????

 

 

[Alf Bentley]

39 minutes ago, twoleftfeet said:

I think it should be by rights its a bit like a night out with friends you agree by a small majority to go for pizza get to the restaurant and then have to decide between pepperoni and margarita just for those that didnt want pizza to say the choice of nando's should still be available.

 

I'd say it's more like a night out with friends where you've agreed by a small majority to go for a curry.

Some friends have swung the vote by recommending a new curry house where they apparently serve delicious food at very low prices and you can order whatever you like.

 

On arrival at the Bombay Brexit, you find that it looks scruffy, there are rodent droppings by the kitchen door the menu isn't great, and the prices are much higher than your mates had claimed.

Some of those who lost the vote and even a couple who supported the choice want to have a re-vote, hoping to eat somewhere better. Others who lost accept the original vote and want to make the best of it.

So, they try to order their favourite Rogan.

 

Those who won the vote then insist that there can be no re-vote - and that everyone must order the rat phall from the "No Deal Menu" as it's the "will of the people" and anyone wanting to reconsider the venue or to order something else is a traitor. 

[The Guvnor]

13 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I'd say it's more like a night out with friends where you've agreed by a small majority to go for a curry.

Some friends have swung the vote by recommending a new curry house where they apparently serve delicious food at very low prices and you can order whatever you like.

 

On arrival at the Bombay Brexit, you find that it looks scruffy, there are rodent droppings by the kitchen door the menu isn't great, and the prices are much higher than your mates had claimed.

Some of those who lost the vote and even a couple who supported the choice want to have a re-vote, hoping to eat somewhere better. Others who lost accept the original vote and want to make the best of it.

So, they try to order their favourite Rogan.

 

Those who won the vote then insist that there can be no re-vote - and that everyone must order the rat phall from the "No Deal Menu" as it's the "will of the people" and anyone wanting to reconsider the venue or to order something else is a traitor. 

You have too much time on your hands.

😄

[Alf Bentley]

2 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

You have too much time on your hands.

😄

 

More like an avoidance strategy so I don't have to get on with all the stuff that I should be doing with my time!