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Countryfox

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By Countryfox, in General Chat

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, SO1 said:

But understandable given the situation.

Something that can be empathised with? Yeah.

 

Something that is practically counterproductive? Also yeah.

 

7 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Nissan is to announce a major expansion of battery production in Sunderland creating thousands of new jobs both directly and in the supply chain.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57640001

 

Excellent news. 

 

Electric cars will only get better in terms of efficiency and economy.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57634700

 

...but they might need to hurry up.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
38 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Tell that to Australia.

This has come up before wrt Chinese influence in Africa so I'll just repeat what I said there:

 

"However, for me "buy our stuff and take our loans or your economy will do down the pan" isn't quite the same as "actively back coups and direct military intervention in other states to bring about governments friendly to the intervener and sharing the same ideology as it".

 

There's a lot of truthful accusations about shit behaviour that can be leveled at the Chinese government. Being aggressively imperialist, I would say, is not one of them - not until we see a Zambian (or elsewhere) government with a state capitalist ideology, repressive dictatorship and Chinese military bases in multiple places in the country."

 

I don't think such behaviour comes down to being oppressive yet, especially when compared to how they treat their own citizens which certainly is.

 

NB. Not to tread on toes, but didn't you advocate for the way the Chinese government use tech as means to control once upon a time?

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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

This has come up before wrt Chinese influence in Africa so I'll just repeat what I said there:

 

"However, for me "buy our stuff and take our loans or your economy will do down the pan" isn't quite the same as "actively back coups and direct military intervention in other states to bring about governments friendly to the intervener and sharing the same ideology as it".

 

There's a lot of truthful accusations about shit behaviour that can be leveled at the Chinese government. Being aggressively imperialist, I would say, is not one of them - not until we see a Zambian (or elsewhere) government with a state capitalist ideology, repressive dictatorship and Chinese military bases in multiple places in the country."

 

I don't think such behaviour comes down to being oppressive yet, especially when compared to how they treat their own citizens which certainly is.

 

NB. Not to tread on toes, but didn't you advocate for the way the Chinese government use tech as means to control once upon a time?

They are using economic and technological power rather than military in the main, but that is the era we are in now.  I think to assume this is less nasty might turn out to be very wrong.  Certainly if you are an Australian university whose freedom of speech is being curtailed by pressure for Chinese students I think you have a bit big problem.  Playing with Chinese money is a dangerous game.

 

If I recall the conversation about use of technology for control I think I was pointing out the worrying trend of social points being earned by good citizens to incentives certain behaviours, about which there were stories around pre covid.  not seen much about it recently.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

They are using economic and technological power rather than military in the main, but that is the era we are in now.  I think to assume this is less nasty might turn out to be very wrong.  Certainly if you are an Australian university whose freedom of speech is being curtailed by pressure for Chinese students I think you have a bit big problem.  Playing with Chinese money is a dangerous game.

 

If I recall the conversation about use of technology for control I think I was pointing out the worrying trend of social points being earned by good citizens to incentives certain behaviours, about which there were stories around pre covid.  not seen much about it recently.

That university related problem could easily be solved by refusing Chinese students and taking the economic hit. It is nasty, I would agree, but hardly so much as military or more direct action of any kind IMO. I don't disagree that a problem exists, but I still wouldn't go so far as calling it oppression as other countries still have a multitude of decent options for dealing with it. For the time being, anyway, and yes, that could change.

 

I've actually been digging for the thread where we had the conversation and couldn't find it, but I do distinctly remember being rather shocked at you saying something along the lines of "Russians and Chinese use tech to deceive populations as an instrument of realpolitik, why shouldn't the West?" My thought then as now was that there are some lines you can't cross if you're the "good" guy, and moreover some lines you shouldn't cross if humanity is going to get along in the ways that it simply needs to. The ways social media and the like have come along in the meantime only reinforce that belief for me.

 

If it can't be found you're going to have to take that on faith, though.

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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

I've actually been digging for the thread where we had the conversation and couldn't find it, but I do distinctly remember being rather shocked at you saying something along the lines of "Russians and Chinese use tech to deceive populations as an instrument of realpolitik, why shouldn't the West?" My thought then as now was that there are some lines you can't cross if you're the "good" guy, and moreover some lines you shouldn't cross if humanity is going to get along in the ways that it simply needs to. The ways social media and the like have come along in the meantime only reinforce that belief for me.

 

If it can't be found you're going to have to take that on faith, though.

Ah that does ring a bell, so you might be right - I think we were talking about the use of data to target specific people in election campaigning, and I was trying to say that the cat is out of the bag on that one, and if one side then ignores it we can have skewed elections based on who can throw the most cash at it, which is not a good place to be.  Referring to the rumoured Russian interference in Brexit / elections / and the Chinese influence using the same / Risk of allowing Huawei access etc.  It needs to be considered very carefully.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Ah that does ring a bell, so you might be right - I think we were talking about the use of data to target specific people in election campaigning, and I was trying to say that the cat is out of the bag on that one, and if one side then ignores it we can have skewed elections based on who can throw the most cash at it, which is not a good place to be.  Referring to the rumoured Russian interference in Brexit / elections / and the Chinese influence using the same / Risk of allowing Huawei access etc.  It needs to be considered very carefully.

Rather than engaging in a free-for-all race to the bottom, perhaps better defences and regs against such use of data should be considered, then.

Edited by leicsmac
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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Rather than engaging in a free-for-all race to the bottom, perhaps better defences and regs against such use of data should be considered, then.

That would indeed be ideal, and I am sure governments are working on it, but in the meantime most of the population are freely giving away their data to most of their apps, so it is pretty hard to see a way to go back.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

That would indeed be ideal, and I am sure governments are working on it, but in the meantime most of the population are freely giving away their data to most of their apps, so it is pretty hard to see a way to go back.

It's a fair point tbh.

 

As a science communicator, I just find it very difficult to be able to convince people about what is fact and what is misinformation anyway in the current climate, without more being added to it.

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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

It's a fair point tbh.

 

As a science communicator, I just find it very difficult to be able to convince people about what is fact and what is misinformation anyway in the current climate, without more being added to it.

Indeed, it is almost impossible to avoid endless nonsense these days, even for those of us gifted with a decent brain.  Serious filtering required, but then somehow you risk missing what everyone else sees.  Tricky.

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Facecloth

Facecloth

Posted
Posted
Just now, Dr The Singh said:

Why?

Because he's scared people taking a stance against racism might change things, and he doesn't want that happening now does he.

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