The Politics Thread 2020

[Dahnsouff]

I utterly despair at times, at our want to be both awkward and demonstrate a flagrant refusal to use common sense in line with the guidance.

Surely we all accept that there is always slight nuance in each individuals circumstance, so why do people insist of not accepting that the government can never provide individual specific instructions, merely guidance 

Or are we now at the point that we feel the sharp tip of the crisis has passed and we can be more blasé about the whole thing?

(Yes Dominic Cummings, I include you)

[davieG]

3 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

I utterly despair at times, at our want to be both awkward and demonstrate a flagrant refusal to use common sense in line with the guidance.

Surely we all accept that there is always slight nuance in each individuals circumstance, so why do people insist of not accepting that the government can never provide individual specific instructions, merely guidance 

Or are we now at the point that we feel the sharp tip of the crisis has passed and we can be more blasé about the whole thing?

(Yes Dominic Cummings, I include you)

I don't care what the guidelines say I'm staying isolated. Of course being retired I'm lucky enough to choose that although I badly miss my kids and grandkids.

 

I don't understand the argument he broke the rules I didn't, I didn't do this, that or the other. Well neither did I because I don't want to get or spread this bastard virus not because some laws say I shouldn't.

[Dahnsouff]

Sorry @davieG - wasn't a moan anyone, more a generic rant.

Would rather this whole thing ended one way or another, so we can discuss the pandemic rather than the clowns on the side lines.

[davieG]

Just now, Dahnsouff said:

Sorry @davieG - wasn't a moan anyone, more a generic rant.

Would rather this whole thing ended one way or another, so we can discuss the pandemic rather than the clowns on the side lines.

I was only replying to your post as it seem to be relevant and a continuation, not as a direct response. I actually agree with you.

[Alf Bentley]

7 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

Is finding Helen Whately oddly attractive a Coronavirus symptom?

 

Asking for a friend

 

I can half-see it, Belle. Whately can have a pleasantly relaxed manner that draws you in so that you forget that she's an evil Tory and view her more as a comfy pair of slippers next to your rocking chair.

 

Be careful with comments like this, though. Some young(ish) intellectual like @Finnegan or @bovril is bound to jump on you in the inexplicable belief that their status as members of the intelligentsia somehow precludes them ever aging and admiring middle-aged Tory women on their TV screens.

 

Whately isn't in the same league as the luscious Penny Mordaunt, by the way.

[WigstonWanderer]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Ha, no still got to sell the house, and I am not about to quit my job in this economic environment.

Flights might be stopped, but have no doubt there are a continuous flow of trucks coming and going through the tunnel and on ferries, also ships in and out.  Logistics if anything are busier than ever.

I think when we do all the studies they will find that the population density of our cities, plus the volume of commuters is what has driven a lot of it, and possibly our tendancy to put our elderly in care homes might be higher than some other countries.

The flip side for Australia (and NZ) is it has absolutley no immunity in the community, so unless you plan to keep the lockdown for years I am not sure what the exit strategy is?  The economy will fall over if you can't allow tourist, students and business people in and out for years.

Yes I’d keep hold of a job at this stage as long as possible.

 

Goods have also flowed in and out of Australia throughout as well as between states.

 

Clearly there are many factors in play affecting the severity of the epidemic, including population density, transport infrastructure, behavioural factors, possibly weather, etc. However I think it’s beyond doubt that early intervention is crucial to reducing both the health and economic impacts, and surely isolating the infected is absolutely crucial - I’m pretty sure they knew that in the Middle Ages.

 

As for herd immunity, last night they said that serology tests indicate less than 8% of the population have been infected which is nowhere near the 60%+ usually quoted as required. Having said that, places like London will clearly have a higher percentage. Also as I mentioned above, there is an Oxford paper that I found quite convincing (I’m sure they’ll be pleased to know ) that gives some hope that the threshold for herd immunity might be significantly lower, so who knows.

 

I’m just happy to be here in Perth and out of the line of fire.

Edited 29 May 2020 by WigstonWanderer

[Bellend Sebastian]

23 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I can half-see it, Belle. Whately can have a pleasantly relaxed manner that draws you in so that you forget that she's an evil Tory and view her more as a comfy pair of slippers next to your rocking chair.

 

Be careful with comments like this, though. Some young(ish) intellectual like @Finnegan or @bovril is bound to jump on you in the inexplicable belief that their status as members of the intelligentsia somehow precludes them ever aging and admiring middle-aged Tory women on their TV screens.

 

Whately isn't in the same league as the luscious Penny Mordaunt, by the way.

Not many are, Alf, not many are.

 

I'd have NO problem being told to know my place by her

[Mike Oxlong]

54 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

Is finding Helen Whately oddly attractive a Coronavirus symptom?

 

Asking for a friend

Having just google imaged her I say yes 

 

It’s up to you whether to tell your friend 

 

 

[Bellend Sebastian]

2 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Having just google imaged her I say yes 

 

It’s up to you whether to tell your friend 

 

 

He will be made up to learn of your endorsement, I'm confident of that

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I can half-see it, Belle. Whately can have a pleasantly relaxed manner that draws you in so that you forget that she's an evil Tory and view her more as a comfy pair of slippers next to your rocking chair.

 

Be careful with comments like this, though. Some young(ish) intellectual like @Finnegan or @bovril is bound to jump on you in the inexplicable belief that their status as members of the intelligentsia somehow precludes them ever aging and admiring middle-aged Tory women on their TV screens.

 

Whately isn't in the same league as the luscious Penny Mordaunt, by the way.

 

You're never going to let my comment about fat, middle aged men go are you?

[Alf Bentley]

Just now, Finnegan said:

 

You're never going to let my comment about fat, middle aged men go are you?

 

I've lost some weight since quitting the booze. I'm officially only "overweight" now and not "obese" like Boris Johnson (keeping things on-topic) - BMI of 28 compared to his self-reported 35.

 

I also now view myself as late-middle-aged. I asked my daughter to define "middle-aged" recently and she said between 30 and 50. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

"Everyone will have their scenarios".

 

Clear as muck then. Everyone can just claim exceptional circumstances now. Not everyone will (thankfully), but everyone can. And those who do will inevitably, somewhere along the way, take actions which end up costing lives.

 

That's why this issue won't go away until the government either apologise or sack Cummings.

Hasn't this always been the case? Since day 1 when people were only allowed a certain amount of exercise, how can the police prove otherwise?

 

There's no way he'll be sacked now. We might get an apology saying he didn't think he was breaking guidelines but admits now he may have in the circumstances.

[purpleronnie]

1 hour ago, davieG said:

I don't care what the guidelines say I'm staying isolated. Of course being retired I'm lucky enough to choose that although I badly miss my kids and grandkids.

 

I don't understand the argument he broke the rules I didn't, I didn't do this, that or the other. Well neither did I because I don't want to get or spread this bastard virus not because some laws say I shouldn't.

Are you now considering seeing them?, staying outside 2 metres apart, I'm missing my nephews and nieces and want to see them.

[Leicester_Loyal]

4 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

Are you now considering seeing them?, staying outside 2 metres apart, I'm missing my nephews and nieces and want to see them.

You can see them from Monday in an outdoor space with the new guidelines (if you didn't already know).

[The Horse's Mouth]

https://twitter.com/JoanofA35775594/status/1266087155669090311?s=20 sturgeon must condemn 

[Bellend Sebastian]

My parents dropped some stuff of at our house yesterday (they didn't really stay long enough or get close enough for it to constitute a visit - that's what I'll tell the police anyway) and I really should've been more excited about that than I was.

 

Felt a bit weird if anything

[Voll Blau]

40 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Hasn't this always been the case? Since day 1 when people were only allowed a certain amount of exercise, how can the police prove otherwise?

 

There's no way he'll be sacked now. We might get an apology saying he didn't think he was breaking guidelines but admits now he may have in the circumstances.

I certainly don't recall being told "everyone will have their own scenarios" when lockdown began (though I agree on the policing point - unless you had a neighbour who was a particularly bad grass). The message at the time was so effective because it was so clear, it's now so muddied because the government have restrospectively claimed it actually meant something else.

 

An apology would probably placate a lot of people, and that's what makes it so maddening that one hasn't been forthcoming. If Downing Street think he's completely and utterly indispensable to their operation at this time of crisis then fine - although it's pretty fvcking alarming if that's the case - but showing no contrition whatsoever is actually what I think people see as the most burning injustice about this, if you're just looking at his actions personally. The hypocrisy shown by ministers in defending him is another matter.

[purpleronnie]

1 hour ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

You can see them from Monday in an outdoor space with the new guidelines (if you didn't already know).

Yes that's why I was asking DaveG.

[davieG]

1 hour ago, purpleronnie said:

Are you now considering seeing them?, staying outside 2 metres apart, I'm missing my nephews and nieces and want to see them.

I think they might pop over and chat from the front garden through the window. One of them is probably too young to understand the distancing and my son has been going into work 2/3 days a week. My others lot live in Oxfordshire so we'll have to wait longer for them. I don't want to risk anything as I am slightly vulnerable health wise.

[Jon the Hat]

3 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

"Everyone will have their scenarios".

 

Clear as muck then. Everyone can just claim exceptional circumstances now. Not everyone will (thankfully), but everyone can. And those who do will inevitably, somewhere along the way, take actions which end up costing lives.

 

That's why this issue won't go away until the government either apologise or sack Cummings.

It is a non issue, it really is.  One man, not elected but an adviser, made one trip on Easter Sunday in which the motive and the trip itself are questionable.  Move on ffs.

 

Meanwhile, big things are happening:

The RNLI has decided to only put lifeguards (young fit people almost without exception) on 70 instead of their usual 240 beaches this year.  On balance I would argue that this is more likley to result in additional drownings than fulling staffing the 240 beaches would in COVID-19 deaths of their lifeguards.

The numbers are moving entirely in the right direction despite the fact that people have undoubtedly been out and interacting more in the past 4 weeks than the previous 4 weeks.

We have the highest death rate per capita in the world (agains those with good stats) so we need to understand why - this will come again and we need to be prepared.

The economy is going to take a big hit very soon - what are we going to do to accelerate opening up before the entire Leisure sector is ****ed;  Summer has to happen - make it!

 

 

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

https://twitter.com/JoanofA35775594/status/1266087155669090311?s=20 sturgeon must condemn 

Numerous MPs left Westminster and went home, some of them also came back again, during lockdown, when it was possible to connect remotely.  No one is mentioning this...  But Cummings??  HE MUST GO NOW!

[Voll Blau]

13 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

It is a non issue, it really is.  One man, not elected but an adviser, made one trip on Easter Sunday in which the motive and the trip itself are questionable.  Move on ffs.

In spite of the message it sends out to the public, in spite of the disastrous consequences that could have for public health, in spite of the way that could undermine the implementation of the track and trace programme, in spite of the anger felt by those who suffered devastating personal tragedies but obeyed all the rules during that time, in spite of the fact 61 Tory MPs want him to resign, in spite of the thousands of letters they were bombarded with from life-long Tory voters that prompted them to make that call, in spite of The Spectator - of all publications - running a column questioning Johnson's fitness to lead as a result of this. I could go on...

 

I'd say those make it pretty far from a "non-issue", and the simple fact is much of the public won't "move on" until they see some actual contrition and/or leadership from Downing Street. This is about more than one man and his actions, it's about the competence of government in a time of crisis.

[Dahnsouff]

3 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

In spite of the message it sends out to the public, in spite of the disastrous consequences that could have for public health, in spite of the way that could undermine the implementation of the track and trace programme, in spite of the anger felt by those who suffered devastating personal tragedies but obeyed all the rules during that time, in spite of the fact 61 Tory MPs want him to resign, in spite of the thousands of letters they were bombarded with from life-long Tory voters that prompted them to make that call, in spite of The Spectator - of all publications - running a column questioning Johnson's fitness to lead as a result of this. I could go on...

 

I'd say those make it pretty far from a "non-issue", and the simple fact is much of the public won't "move on" until they see some actual contrition and/or leadership from Downing Street. This is about more than one man and his actions, it's about the competence of government in a time of crisis.

Sorry @Voll Blau I generally like your posts, but the bit in bold is a very distasteful overreach and plays on heart strings where it is quite clear that the impact of DC's misbehaviour is not yet full known.

[Voll Blau]

Just now, Dahnsouff said:

Sorry @Voll Blau I generally like your posts, but the bit in bold is a very distasteful overreach and plays on heart strings where it is quite clear that the impact of DC's misbehaviour is not yet full known.

 

I chose my words very carefully and am loath to bring such emotional content into this, but you really don't have to look very far to see that that's clearly the case for many, many people. There are myriad news stories, letters to editors, online posts etc that I've read over the past few days highlighting people's personal experience of this, and the betrayal they feel as a result.

 

But their feelings do have real world consequences too - hence why I mentioned it. I acknowledge that, like you say, the full impact of the mistrust those people and others may now have of government policy from hereon in can't yet be quantified, but it is a very real threat nonetheless at a crucial juncture of this process when the government are again relying on the goodwill and sacrifice of the public for the common good.

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Voll Blau said:

 

I chose my words very carefully and am loath to bring such emotional content into this, but you really don't have to look very far to see that that's clearly the case for many, many people. There are myriad news stories, letters to editors, online posts etc that I've read over the past few days highlighting people's personal experience of this, and the betrayal they feel as a result.

 

But their feelings do have real world consequences too - hence why I mentioned it. I acknowledge that, like you say, the full impact of the mistrust those people and others may now have of government policy from hereon in can't yet be quantified, but it is a very real threat nonetheless at a crucial juncture of this process when the government are again relying on the goodwill and sacrifice of the public for the common good.

I understand and although I can see the potential effects of what DC did, we should be loathe to attribute all lockdown misdemeanours to his actions. Unlike the media at large (or small!), we should not (in my opinion) seek to act as a megaphone for outliers, we should always seek balance and unfortunately, balance is a very difficult thing to achieve during periods of outrage.

 

Good chat as always