Coronavirus Thread

[String fellow]

The next tier review will be on Wednesday, with the more of England probably entering Tier 4 on Saturday, 

[foxile5]

13 minutes ago, Babylon said:

“Can’t wear a mask I’ve got anxiety”

 

Says Karen from New Parks whilst wandering around Primark in the middle of a pandemic.

It's the new bad back, that. 

 

Chuck it out there and see if it sticks. 

[Costock_Fox]

13 minutes ago, Babylon said:

“Can’t wear a mask I’ve got anxiety”

 

Says Karen from New Parks whilst wandering around Primark in the middle of a pandemic.

It’s always Karen, **** you Karen.

[Costock_Fox]

1 minute ago, foxile5 said:

It's the new bad back, that. 

 

Chuck it out there and see if it sticks. 

Maybe true but until you have suffered/known someone who has suffered maybe don’t he so flippant with that.

[foxile5]

Just now, Costock_Fox said:

Maybe true but until you have suffered/known someone who has suffered maybe don’t he so flippant with that.

Well A) I wasn't being flippant. I was joking that a legitimate medical issue is often exploited by some sections of the public - replying to a post suggestive of the very same (a post you responded to joking, by the way) - and B) don't be so flippant to assume that I haven't and don't. 

 

If you're going to take the moral high ground its probably best to not be laughing at one joke about anxiety and not the other. 

[Costock_Fox]

4 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

Well A) I wasn't being flippant. I was joking that a legitimate medical issue is often exploited by some sections of the public - replying to a post suggestive of the very same (a post you responded to joking, by the way) - and B) don't be so flippant to assume that I haven't and don't. 

 

If you're going to take the moral high ground its probably best to not be laughing at one joke about anxiety and not the other. 

I’m not taking any moral high ground, having witnessed someone suffering with anxiety yet previously id thought similar to what you said I was suggesting you maybe shouldn’t assume people do that.

 

And re my previous post,  It’s pretty obvious I don’t really think everyone in the world called Karen is a twat. 

[foxile5]

2 minutes ago, Costock_Fox said:

I’m not taking any moral high ground, having witnessed someone suffering with anxiety yet previously id thought similar to what you said I was suggesting you maybe shouldn’t assume people do that.

 

And re my previous post,  It’s pretty obvious I don’t really think everyone in the world called Karen is a twat.

Both posts you responded to were suggestive of anxiety being misused as an excuse and you only met one with an argument. That's the point I'm making. Not that you think people called Karen are twats. 

[Guest Harrydc]

31 minutes ago, Babylon said:

“Can’t wear a mask I’ve got anxiety”

 

Says Karen from New Parks whilst wandering around Primark in the middle of a pandemic.

People with anxiety can go shopping too 

[Costock_Fox]

3 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

Both posts you responded to were suggestive of anxiety being misused as an excuse and you only met one with an argument. That's the point I'm making. Not that you think people called Karen are twats. 

Sorry I’ve just re read the post and see what you mean.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Sadly these look nothing more than a PR stunt, there are apparently no toilet facilities but more importantly no staff available to work in them. That's why I'm not buying all this NHS at breaking point stuff, if it was the NHS would be using the volunteers who have offered to help or they'd be hiring emergency staff to help cope with demand. Hospitals were always going to get busier, we knew it and so did the Government, but they've done absolutely nothing to try and increase the number of NHS frontline staff in the 9 and a half months since this pandemic began, it makes zero sense.

The way it was described to me is that it’s the level staff are trained to which is the biggest issue. In particular when it comes to using ventilators etc. 
 

Internally at a lot of trusts is caused friction and headaches because a lot of it is down to effectively pay grades etc as well. There’s a recultance to promote as it would increase the wage Bill significantly.

[CosbehFox]

The latest news and stats are pretty eye watering. 
 

Now would be the right time for a leader to step up and call on the public to insist on a high level of compliance. A hard six weeks where collectively the public has to work hard. Get back to supermarkets having smaller capacities etc 
 

However I just don’t see it coming. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

16 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

The way it was described to me is that it’s the level staff are trained to which is the biggest issue. In particular when it comes to using ventilators etc. 
 

Internally at a lot of trusts is caused friction and headaches because a lot of it is down to effectively pay grades etc as well. There’s a recultance to promote as it would increase the wage Bill significantly.

Yeah the critical care wards would possibly still struggle, but the other wards should have adequate staff potentially. I also heard they're struggling for staff because the staff were told if they didn't take their annual leave they'd lose it, but I don't know if that's true.

 

Weird how they're worried about the wage bill but the lockdown is costing us billions a week!

 

I do think the NHS needs stripping back and starting again completely, it's mental how much money must go to waste. It's not just the NHS either, all these publically funded companies must waste hundreds of millions a year (NHS, councils, Network Rail etc.)

[CosbehFox]

Just now, Leicester_Loyal said:

Yeah the critical care wards would possibly still struggle, but the other wards should have adequate staff potentially. I also heard they're struggling for staff because the staff were told if they didn't take their annual leave they'd lose it, but I don't know if that's true.

 

Weird how they're worried about the wage bill but the lockdown is costing us billions a week!

 

I do think the NHS needs stripping back and starting again completely, it's mental how much money must go to waste. It's not just the NHS either, all these publically funded companies must waste hundreds of millions a year (NHS, councils, Network Rail etc.)

NHS is effectively hundreds of trusts. All different businesses. That’s before you even getting into other offshoots as well like NHS Property Services etc. 
 

I’ve seen both sides of public sector. Seen workplaces where it works okay, others where it doesn’t. There’s been a slow erosion of having directly employed staff in certain sectors and the use of consultants. It’s a short term balance tactic without any long term thinking. 
 

Anyway I’m veering off topic here 

[stix]

1 hour ago, Harrydc said:

People with anxiety can go shopping too 

Yep. As long as they wear a mask. 

[dsr-burnley]

2 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Sadly these look nothing more than a PR stunt, there are apparently no toilet facilities but more importantly no staff available to work in them. That's why I'm not buying all this NHS at breaking point stuff, if it was the NHS would be using the volunteers who have offered to help or they'd be hiring emergency staff to help cope with demand. Hospitals were always going to get busier, we knew it and so did the Government, but they've done absolutely nothing to try and increase the number of NHS frontline staff in the 9 and a half months since this pandemic began, it makes zero sense.

As far as staffing goes, there are about 60,000 - 80,000 student nurses in this country.  Once upon a time they would have been in hospitals learning on the job; in an absolute emergency, they could be mobilised en masse.  

[brucey]

26 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

As far as staffing goes, there are about 60,000 - 80,000 student nurses in this country.  Once upon a time they would have been in hospitals learning on the job; in an absolute emergency, they could be mobilised en masse.  

To do what exactly?

Operate ventilators?

When something inevitably goes wrong, and someone dies from the mistakes made by inadequately trained staff, who takes that responsibility?

[dsr-burnley]

Just now, brucey said:

To do what exactly?

Operate ventilators?

When something inevitably goes wrong, and someone dies from the mistakes made by inadequately trained staff, who takes that responsibility?

Are you seriously suggesting that the untrained students should operate the ventilators while the best qualified staff empty the bedpans?  

 

You might be surprised to know that the NHS already employs nurses who are not qualified to operate ventilators.  This does not mean they are useless.  There are still things they can do.

 

As for the deaths caused by mistakes, I wouldn't support the theory that avoiding insurance liability is better than saving lives.  I would hope that a hospital that does its best and saves 50 and fails to save 50 because they were overworked, gets better credit than a hospital which lets all 100 dies for fear of being held responsible.  But I suppose in today's world, we never know.

[The whole world smiles]

42 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

As far as staffing goes, there are about 60,000 - 80,000 student nurses in this country.  Once upon a time they would have been in hospitals learning on the job; in an absolute emergency, they could be mobilised en masse.  

They do learn on the job, when my wife did it, it was 60% placement 40% classroom. So most are already on wards a lot of the time. 

 

My wife looks after the student nurses on her ward and she will tell you that the 1st years are usually completely useless and are more of a hindrance than a help, the 2nd years are mostly useless but you do get a few good ones, and the 3rd years are mostly OK. 

 

That only leaves about 20,000 (at a push) of your 60,000 student nurse army that would actually be useful on a busy, pressurised ward. 

 

They could plug holes on some wards but should be let no where near specialist ICU wards. 

Edited 29 December 2020 by The whole world smiles

[dsr-burnley]

2 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

They do learn on the job, when my wife did it, it was 60% placement 40% classroom. 

 

My wife looks after the student nurses on her ward and she will tell you that the 1st years are usually completely useless and are more of a hindrance than a help, the 2nd years are mostly useless but you do get a few good ones, and the 3rd years are mostly OK. 

 

That only leaves about 20,000 (at a push) of your 60,000 student nurse army that would actually be useful on a busy, pressurised ward. 

 

They could plug holes on some wards but should be let no where near specialist ICU wards. 

That's stating the bleeding obvious.   Unless perhaps there are jobs that involve watching the machines and shouting for help if something goes wrong.

 

If first year student nurses are incapable of making the tea or pushing the dinner trolley round, then they will be no use and the second years will have to do that.  If second year student nurses are incapable of cleaning up the mess from the people who don't make it to the toilet, then the third years will have to do it.

 

It's a matter, I suppose, for each hospital to decide.  If the NHS staff can cope with all the extra work from Covid, and all the vaccinations, even if the epidemic gets much worse, without needing any extra bodies, then fine.  But if partially trained bodies would be useful, then there is a large supply of partially trained people ready and (hopefully) willing.

 

[brucey]

28 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Are you seriously suggesting that the untrained students should operate the ventilators while the best qualified staff empty the bedpans?  

 

You might be surprised to know that the NHS already employs nurses who are not qualified to operate ventilators.  This does not mean they are useless.  There are still things they can do.

 

As for the deaths caused by mistakes, I wouldn't support the theory that avoiding insurance liability is better than saving lives.  I would hope that a hospital that does its best and saves 50 and fails to save 50 because they were overworked, gets better credit than a hospital which lets all 100 dies for fear of being held responsible.  But I suppose in today's world, we never know.

The student nurses are already on wards dealing with bedpans, taking observations and such. That's what they've always done.

 

It is the lack of trained staff that's the issue. If you sent student nurses to the ICU to help out with proning patients or washing, that's great. That still doesn't mean that each ICU nurse will be able to manage more ventilators at the same time. Certainly not anywhere near the degree that would be required.

 

Professional regulators see it as the healthcare worker's responsibility to ensure they only perform procedures they are adequately trained in. In the case of students, this responsibility falls to the supervising nurse/doctor. I don't think you'll find many staff willing to do things they are 'partially trained in' and potentially get struck off.

[Guest Harrydc]

2 hours ago, stix said:

Yep. As long as they wear a mask. 

• people who cannot put on, wear or remove a face covering because of a physical or mental illness or impairment, or disability
• where putting on, wearing or removing a face covering will cause you severe distress

This is from the official government website, since they have been so good throughout this pandemic...

 

Who is anyone to say that a face covering does not give someone else severe distress? Or who is to say that anxiety isn't a mental illness? Because I suffer heavily from severe anxiety, and I tell you now face coverings are terrible for me, and I'm at the point now of saying enough is enough and not bothering. 

[z-layrex]

5 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

As far as staffing goes, there are about 60,000 - 80,000 student nurses in this country.  Once upon a time they would have been in hospitals learning on the job; in an absolute emergency, they could be mobilised en masse.  

What would you have them do exactly?

[z-layrex]

4 hours ago, brucey said:

The student nurses are already on wards dealing with bedpans, taking observations and such. That's what they've always done.

 

It is the lack of trained staff that's the issue. If you sent student nurses to the ICU to help out with proning patients or washing, that's great. That still doesn't mean that each ICU nurse will be able to manage more ventilators at the same time. Certainly not anywhere near the degree that would be required.

 

Professional regulators see it as the healthcare worker's responsibility to ensure they only perform procedures they are adequately trained in. In the case of students, this responsibility falls to the supervising nurse/doctor. I don't think you'll find many staff willing to do things they are 'partially trained in' and potentially get struck off.

We actually find the non icu trained surge nurses and students coming to help in the icu's often just add to our workload, as it's yet another thing you need to keep an eye on.

[z-layrex]

One thing we are asking for that was so so helpful in the first wave was turning/proning teams going around all the units. Teams of redeployed doctors/nurses/AHP's would come and turn your patients, or even more helpfully prone/unprone. Proning a patient takes 7 people (8 for a patient on ecmo) and is just so resource consuming. We are dealing with even worse pressures than before without this amazing resource. We dont need surge nurses or students we need the turning teams back!! We keep escalating it up but to no avail.

Edited 29 December 2020 by z-layrex

[dsr-burnley]

3 hours ago, z-layrex said:

What would you have them do exactly?

That would need a medical expert.  

 

Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe if the Nightingale hospitals reopen and more people need ventilators than there are staff to operate them, it will still be better to use fully trained staff under current rules and let the excess patients die, rather than spread the staff more thinly and do the best we can for everyone.  That may have to be a clinical decision to be made.  But if it does come to that, it's important to remember that this wouldn't be a choice between the prefect solution or an imperfect solution - it would be a choice between two imperfect solutions.  So this particular suggestion should not be written off simply because it is imperfect.