Coronavirus Thread

[Leicester_Loyal]

3 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

So the hospitals here as less busy than average and yet I'll be heading into lockdown shortly. Fantastic.

Nothing we can do about it, just grit your teeth and get through the next 12 weeks bud

 

Are the places giving out the vaccine going to work 24/7? Surely we should be trying to get people working around the clock to get it rolled out as fast as possible, especially if we've got 100 million doses available.

[yorkie1999]

7 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Nothing we can do about it, just grit your teeth and get through the next 12 weeks bud

 

Are the places giving out the vaccine going to work 24/7? Surely we should be trying to get people working around the clock to get it rolled out as fast as possible, especially if we've got 100 million doses available.

Don’t know where I’ve read it, might have been on here, but the main problem with vaccinating old people first is, it’s slow. Once we can get through those, things will probably speed up and give us time to actually manufacture the vaccines.

[CosbehFox]

 

That graph is 10 days old chaps. Ambulances were queuing outside London and Birmingham hospitals last night. London hospitals referring patients outside the M25 loop. 
 

Within the graph, the use of regions isn’t helpful here because there will be plenty of hospitals within those areas which are empty by default of their location. For example, North West is going to cover Lake District alongside Manchester 

[Leicester_Loyal]

11 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

 

That graph is 10 days old chaps. Ambulances were queuing outside London and Birmingham hospitals last night. London hospitals referring patients outside the M25 loop. 
 

Within the graph, the use of regions isn’t helpful here because there will be plenty of hospitals within those areas which are empty by default of their location. For example, North West is going to cover Lake District alongside Manchester 

None of this makes any sense to me. How can it be this bad, but they haven't created extra capacity or used the NHS volunteers? Not all of those parked outside will be COVID patients surely, so those that aren't could have been transferred to the place where they created extra capacity. How can NHS trusts be worried about the wage bill like we discussed a couple of days ago (I think it was you), when the situation is this bad? I literally can't get my head around it all.

[Nick]

36 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Top post Alf

So am I 

👍

I’m mixed economy and so’s my wife.

[Buce]

 

An interesting situation has arisen at Mrs Buce's place of work; all of the residents who have capacity to make their own decisions have agreed to be vaccinated, but there are a dozen or so with dementia who are not deemed to have mental capacity, and therefore the decision is made on their behalf by those who have power of attorney, four of whom have refused (in one case two brothers share power of attorney, and each has a different opinion).

 

Should they be allowed to make such an important decision regarding their relative's health? It seems reasonable to extrapolate from the decision made by everyone with capacity, that those without would have made a similar decision had they been able.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

An interesting situation has arisen at Mrs Buce's place of work; all of the residents who have capacity to make their own decisions have agreed to be vaccinated, but there are a dozen or so with dementia who are not deemed to have mental capacity, and therefore the decision is made on their behalf by those who have power of attorney, four of whom have refused (in one case two brothers share power of attorney, and each has a different opinion).

 

Should they be allowed to make such an important decision regarding their relative's health? It seems reasonable to extrapolate from the decision made by everyone with capacity, that those without would have made a similar decision had they been able.

I have the power of attorney over my Dad as he has Alzheimer’s and Vascular Dementia. 
He cannot make decisions, things like this would send him into panic and confusion. It has to be taken for him, who should make that decision is a fair question but it can’t be burdened on them.

[StanSP]

Tier 4 areas expanded

 

 

 

[Col city fan]

1 hour ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

None of this makes any sense to me. How can it be this bad, but they haven't created extra capacity or used the NHS volunteers? Not all of those parked outside will be COVID patients surely, so those that aren't could have been transferred to the place where they created extra capacity. How can NHS trusts be worried about the wage bill like we discussed a couple of days ago (I think it was you), when the situation is this bad? I literally can't get my head around it all.

Certainly not all those outside in ambulances will be Covid 19 patients of course. But the fact that the hospitals are dealing with so many Covid patients means that beds need to be re-allocated, freed up, there must be a Doctor free to assess the patients in A and E, the triage nurses are all busy and so on and so forth

It’s the knock on effects of Covid (and all it’s complications) that mean the services are having to deal with every patient on a case by case basis etc

eg a patient now can’t just be ‘admitted’. Even if unsymptomatic, they will also have to be tested. 
Essentially, the conveyor belt of admission has so many more different strands to it now. This will hold people up in ambulances 

[Buce]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I have the power of attorney over my Dad as he has Alzheimer’s and Vascular Dementia. 
He cannot make decisions, things like this would send him into panic and confusion. It has to be taken for him, who should make that decision is a fair question but it can’t be burdened on them.

 

Yeah, I realise all that but I'm not convinced the relatives are acting, 1) in the patients best interests, and, 2) as the patient might wish if they had capacity.

 

Also, what needs to be borne in mind is that it is next to impossible to get dementia patients to stay in their rooms (lockdown is forbidden under the Deprivation of Liberties Act) which means they are at constant risk of catching Covid, which is in the building but isolated.

Edited 30 December 2020 by Buce

[Corky]

6 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Tier 4 areas expanded

 

 

 

On the football side, that's fans not permitted completely now?

[Col city fan]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Yeah, I realise all that but I'm not convinced the relatives are acting, 1) in the patients best interests, and, 2) as the patient might wish if they had capacity.

 

Also, what needs to be borne in mind is that it is impossible to get dementia patients to stay in their rooms (lockdown is forbidden under the Deprivation of Liberties Act) which means they are at constant risk of catching Covid, which is in the building but isolated.

It’s not impossible to get patients to stay in their rooms even if they have dementia. Some will stay there and some won’t

The MCA 1995 is clear on the matter of Lasting Power of Attorney. If a person has LPA for Health and Welfare then that person’s voice   Becomes ‘the voice of the patient’. If the LPA doesn’t want their mum or dad to have the vaccine, they have that final say

Don’t forget though, this should be properly backed up by a mental capacity assessment of the patients level of understanding of having the vaccine. We can’t treat all ‘dementia patients’ the same. And capacity can fluctuate. One patient might, when assessed, still be able to make their own decision, but another might not. It’s not enough to say that all ‘patients with dementia’ lack capacity. It’s decision and time specific 

An institution doing this correctly will have assessed the persons level of understanding and if deemed incapable, the decision will be made by the LPA. If incapable AND no LPA, the setting may act in the persons best interests as long as they know what those ‘best interests’ are.

[yorkie1999]

7 minutes ago, Corky said:

On the football side, that's fans not permitted completely now?

Apart from fans of the woolpack wanderers and the garrison gunners!

[Strokes]

18 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Yeah, I realise all that but I'm not convinced the relatives are acting, 1) in the patients best interests, and, 2) as the patient might wish if they had capacity.

 

Also, what needs to be borne in mind is that it is next to impossible to get dementia patients to stay in their rooms (lockdown is forbidden under the Deprivation of Liberties Act) which means they are at constant risk of catching Covid, which is in the building but isolated.

I don’t disagree, I just don’t know what the humane answer is. All paths seem to lead into dark places.

[Manini]

Class. Looks like I’ll have utilisation of the gym for another two weeks at least then before we finally succumb up here in Yarkshir. 
 

Good timing to be honest because I currently look like Daniel Lamberts 4th neck roll. 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

That’s my first trip now booked for 2021!!

I’m hopefully off to Iceland in February 

If that goes well, I’ll probably look at going to Sainsbury’s in March. #lockdownuk

[Leicester_Loyal]

There goes the gyms and hairdressers then, great. Go to work, come home and watch sport will be what we'll be doing for the next 12 weeks or so I guess.

 

Nothing we can do about it, just hope that come April the restrictions are let loose, got no confidence they will be though.

[yorkie1999]

Just now, UpTheLeagueFox said:

That’s my first trip now booked for 2021!!

I’m hopefully off to Iceland in February 

If that goes well, I’ll probably look at going to Sainsbury’s in March. #lockdownuk

Sometimes, the old ones aren't the best, but they still raise a quick uh!

[The Syrup]

Rutland only part of east midlands not in tier 4. Oakham hairdressers to get busy now

[Pliskin]

4 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I think a large part of it is due to ideology, party politics & the leader's personality rather than just breathtaking incompetence. 

 

Since the 80s, the dominant ideology has been that the private sector is better than the public and that the state should intervene as little as possible - particularly under the Tories, but with New Labour, too, to a lesser extent.

Hence, partly, the preference for handing megabucks contracts to private companies, some with no experience in the field - "bound to be more efficient" than experienced public health officials with local knowledge, says the ideology. 

 

There is also a sizeable minority of right-wing libertarians among the Tory contingent, people whose instinct is anti-lockdown, anti-restrictions unless there's clear proof such measures are essential.

Under those circumstances, if the Govt intervenes hard and/or early, it risks internal party divisions and potentially losing votes in parliament or, more likely, depending on the more state-friendly Labour to get measures through.

So, ideological instinct and Tory party politics leads the Govt to delay and minimise state intervention until the need is staring everyone in the face.....leading to longer lockdowns, more deaths, more economic damage etc.

 

Also, Johnson is not only libertarian & anti-interventionist by political preference, he's also a "good news guy" by personality.

He got where he is by entertaining people and by painting a golden vision of a great future - a completely unsuitable personality for a PM during such a crisis, when tough decisions have to be taken and news needs to be announced that the public won't like re. restrictions and early lockdowns to avoid longer, harder lockdowns & more damage. I loathed Thatcher's politics, but by personality she'd have been much better suited to this crisis - prepared to take hard decisions & give bad news.

It's like a football club that is leaking 4 goals every match appointing the entertainer Kevin Keegan as manager, when they needed a short burst of Pulis, Warnock or Big Sam! 

Liked this post! Lots of truth in it. 

[StanSP]

2 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

There goes the gyms and hairdressers then, great. Go to work, come home and watch sport will be what we'll be doing for the next 12 weeks or so I guess.

 

Nothing we can do about it, just hope that come April the restrictions are let loose, got no confidence they will be though.

Can't see the tiered system being in place for 12 weeks.

[Leicester_Loyal]

Just now, StanSP said:

Can't see the tiered system being in place for 12 weeks.

What you reckon another national lockdown before then?

[RowlattsFox]

Inevitable, glad I took my lad for an haircut this morning, otherwise he'd have me having a go. Spoke to the hairdresser about closing again as we both knew it was happening and she doesn't no whether she will survive another period of closure. It's a pain in the arse opening and closing too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

We're getting closer to a Goombay Dance Band situation #lockdownuk 

[StanSP]

4 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

What you reckon another national lockdown before then?

Not sure. I think they're trying to resist a national lockdown as much as possible, hence the Tier 4 restrictions being staggered around the country.

 

Maybe pinning hopes on vaccine being a resounding success. Especially given that people should be receiving their 2nd dose of Pfizer, and with the Oxford one being rolled out next week...