Religion

[RumbleFox]

5 minutes ago, Benguin said:

That's great, all though I personally don't feel any good argument had been made, (not just by you but by anyone in the world) against nihilism assuming God doesn't exist. 

 

That's only my opinion of course

I suppose you could say I am a nihilist in grand spiritual terms, ie there is no inherent “meaning” to life. But I take joy in life and do not find it meaningless on a personal level. I am the product of millions of years of evolution, made from exploded stars. My genes have been passed on to my daughter and if she had children they will continue. Those that know me will mourn me when I’m gone and maybe I have made the world a better place in my own little way. Of the trillions of possible lives that could have been made I was lucky enough to be born, if you find all that meaningless that is up to you but I find that quite a depressing worldview. Moreover, just because you “don’t feel any good argument has been made” doesn’t mean none have. I don’t think any good arguments have been made for God’s  existence but that doesn’t mean I’m right. X 

Edited 21 July 2020 by RumbleFox

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said:

In the case you describe it is a certainty, my apologies.

So it is the origin of an individuals ability to reason in an ethical manner that is under discussion? (I.e.; Do we need theological guidance to be truly just?)

I think the original contention was that given one can only reason on truth, knowledge, meaning and morality from themselves, doesn't that still lead nihilism. 

 

I do find your question in brackets much more interesting though. I do not believe it is possible for an absolute objective standard of morality to exist without God. I've expanded more on this at the start of this thread. 

[Benguin]

5 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

I suppose you could say I am a nihilist in grand spiritual terms, ie there is no inherent “meaning” to life. But I take joy in life and do not find it meaningless on a personal level. I am the product of millions of years of evolution, made from exploded stars. My genes have been passed on to my daughter and if she had children they will continue. Those that know me will mourn me when I’m gone and maybe I have made the world a better place in my own little way. Of the trillions of possible lives that could have been made I was lucky enough to be born, if you find all that meaningless that is up to you but I find that quite a depressing worldview. Moreover, just because you “don’t feel any good argument has been made” doesn’t mean none have. I don’t think any good arguments have been made for God’s  existence but that doesn’t mean I’m right. X 

This is kind of what I'm getting at though. Nihilism seems the only logical alternative to theism and you're absolutely right to think it's depressing. I don't think anyone wants to live as a nihilist so am absolutely not surprised that people create there own meaning. 

 

For me personally though, creating my own meaning was not enough and when I realised, as a.twenty something athiest, that my worldview did not consist with my reality, I found God. 

 

I agree with your last sentiments. 

[Benguin]

Also I have plans this evening so my responses may slow down a bit. 

[Dahnsouff]

3 minutes ago, Benguin said:

For me personally though, creating my own meaning was not enough and when I realised, as a.twenty something athiest, that my worldview did not consist with my reality, I found God. 

That is interesting. If you do not mind me asking, did you look within a group setting of like minded people, or was it via personal introspection?

[RumbleFox]

3 minutes ago, Benguin said:

This is kind of what I'm getting at though. Nihilism seems the only logical alternative to theism and you're absolutely right to think it's depressing. I don't think anyone wants to live as a nihilist so am absolutely not surprised that people create there own meaning. 

 

For me personally though, creating my own meaning was not enough and when I realised, as a.twenty something athiest, that my worldview did not consist with my reality, I found God. 

 

I agree with your last sentiments. 

Well good for you, I disagree but glad you have found meaning. One more thing though, you constantly mention you used to be an atheist, I’d just like to state that that has no bearing on anything, just like were I religious then turned atheistic it would give my atheism no more weight or validity. X

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said:

That is interesting. If you do not mind me asking, did you look within a group setting of like minded people, or was it via personal introspection?

Yes and no. I found deism by myself, I went from athiest to believing in some form of creator after a few years of battling. Becoming a Christian was more from listening to Christians than an individual process though. 

[Benguin]

8 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

Well good for you, I disagree but glad you have found meaning. One more thing though, you constantly mention you used to be an atheist, I’d just like to state that that has no bearing on anything, just like were I religious then turned atheistic it would give my atheism no more weight or validity. X

I absolutely agree. The reason I do it though is for a couple of reasons:

 

1. To highlight worldviews can change. 

2. People like to mock, so I think it's good to point out that people find faith through reason, not just because they were brainwashed as a child. 

3. Often points are raised that are things I use to say to religious people and so I find it beneficial to expand on that. 

 

By me being a former athiest in no way increases or.decreases the possibility of God existing and I really hope I don't portray myself to be that arrogant. If I do, I guess thanks for pointing it out, that's something I need to work on. 

Edited 21 July 2020 by Benguin

[brucey]

7 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Yes and no. I found deism by myself, I went from athiest to believing in some form of creator after a few years of battling. Becoming a Christian was more from listening to Christians than an individual process though. 

Just pointing this out as it’s bothering me a little, that you consistently spell deism and theism correctly but not atheism. 

[Benguin]

2 minutes ago, brucey said:

Just pointing this out as it’s bothering me a little, that you consistently spell deism and theism correctly but not atheism. 

I assure you it's not intentional haha 

[fuchsntf]

2 hours ago, Benguin said:

That's great, all though I personally don't feel any good argument had been made, (not just by you but by anyone in the world) against nihilism assuming God doesn't exist. 

 

That's only my opinion of course

Like your and many other peoples philosophies 

Nihilism is also Not so straight forward....If also has its variables...That also have to be understood without commiting to "no meaning"

Existentiell Nihilism...

Moral Nihilism...

Metaphysisch Nihilism

Epistemological Nihilism

Compositional  Nihilism..

 

Far Too deep to go into on here...

 

Myself After travelling wide and far,Discovering and Sharing with other peoples My own following and beliefs,actually find und lean themselves  towards...

More a philosophy of how to Live your life...and look within oneself...Sikhism Buddhism Daoism,Entwinning  my pagan Nature binding philosophy....

 

Christianity had this but  lost and often closed these Spiritual paths & teachings, especially in the west..The church Stopped supporting and entwining itself,with

their Local und neighbouring parishes. I would even suggest a sort of snobbishness started to rule their Hearts & minds.

I was born a protestant, but had far better spiritual,Theological debate & discussion in a RC atmosphere & community...W.wide.

 

 

Edited 21 July 2020 by fuchsntf

[Free Falling Foxes]

I usual avoid religious chat like the plague but as an hypothetical point: if belief in a God or some sort of creator didn't exist and never had, would the world be a better place, worse or no different?

 

Edited 21 July 2020 by Free Falling Foxes

[Benguin]

10 hours ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

I usual avoid religious chat like the plague but as an hypothetical point: if belief in a God or some sort of creator didn't exist and never had, would the world be a better place, worse or no different?

 

Your outcome pressuposses your premise. Without God, the only definition we can use for better and worse is a subjective and personal one. If there is no God, there is no absolute standard to test this by, so the answer would be different to each individual and each individual's answer would be based entirely on their own subjective reasoning. 

[Dahnsouff]

1 hour ago, Benguin said:

Without God, the only definition we can use for better and worse is a subjective and personal one.

See this bit, this is what will always stop me from being a follower of organised religion. The word of God is not the word of God, it is the word of someone who claims to speak on behalf of God.

Of course, that is kind of the point! You either think "Yup, I am on board with the dogma" or you are not.

Lest we forget, Man (or Woman) are fallible, conceited, selfish and self serving at worst, therefore the purported words of God also will demonstrate this capacity.

 

Where do I get my nihilist badge, or do I just ask @RumbleFox for one? 

[Jon the Hat]

16 hours ago, Benguin said:

This is kind of what I'm getting at though. Nihilism seems the only logical alternative to theism and you're absolutely right to think it's depressing. I don't think anyone wants to live as a nihilist so am absolutely not surprised that people create there own meaning. 

 

For me personally though, creating my own meaning was not enough and when I realised, as a.twenty something athiest, that my worldview did not consist with my reality, I found God. 

 

I agree with your last sentiments. 

You hit the nail on the head there, we all create our own meaning, you choose to create it through faith in god.

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, Benguin said:

Your outcome pressuposses your premise. Without God, the only definition we can use for better and worse is a subjective and personal one. If there is no God, there is no absolute standard to test this by, so the answer would be different to each individual and each individual's answer would be based entirely on their own subjective reasoning. 

There is no such thing as an absolute standard, only what societies have created over time.  This is so clear to me that I find it amazing that anyone can think otherwise, regardless of whether they believe in God or not.

Edited 22 July 2020 by Jon the Hat

[Benguin]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

There is no such thing as an absolute standard, only what societies have created over time.  This is so clear to me that I find it amazing that anyone can think otherwise, regardless of whether they believe in God or not.

Yes that's what I'm getting at. If God doesn't exist, this is the only position one can take, so we cannot possibly say the world would be a better or worse place without God as there isn't a standard to measure by and words such as better and worse are subjective. 

 

I disagree with your last sentiment though. I think it's intuitive that there is a standard beyond our own understanding and we certainly for the most part live as though there is one. 

 

 

[Benguin]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

You hit the nail on the head there, we all create our own meaning, you choose to create it through faith in god.

To make that statement you are assuming that your worldview is true but your worldview doesnt allow for truth, only faith that your own reasoning is reliable. 

[Facecloth]

Just thought I'd share this to bring some light hearted relief

 

[murphy]

On 22/07/2020 at 23:05, Facecloth said:

Just thought I'd share this to bring some light hearted relief

 

 

This has irritated me much more than it should  

 

Since when do Buddhists worship 'a ton of gods'?

And Scientologists believe in God don't they?

 

And of course, the only religion that they are brave enough to mock is the 'boring Christian' one, which is fair game and practically encouraged these days whereas mocking any other religion would be some kind of hate crime.

 

 

So much for 'light-hearted relief'   

[leicsmac]

27 minutes ago, murphy said:

 

This has irritated me much more than it should  

 

Since when do Buddhists worship 'a ton of gods'?

And Scientologists believe in God don't they?

 

And of course, the only religion that they are brave enough to mock is the 'boring Christian' one, which is fair game and practically encouraged these days whereas mocking any other religion would be some kind of hate crime.

 

 

So much for 'light-hearted relief'   

Far be it for me to tread on toes here but they do imply that Scientologists are rich and insane, Mormons are into magical underwear and there is the classic bacon jibe at Muslims, so there's plenty of pisstaking going on there - it's just the one at "generic Christians" is the most blatant.

 

Why is it seemingly trendy to imply that probably the most politically powerful religion in the world (and possibly the most powerful NGO in the world wholesale too) is somehow being oppressed and trodden underfoot by parties far, far less powerful than it is?

[murphy]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Far be it for me to tread on toes here but they do imply that Scientologists are rich and insane, Mormons are into magical underwear and there is the classic bacon jibe at Muslims, so there's plenty of pisstaking going on there - it's just the one at "generic Christians" is the most blatant.

 

Why is it seemingly trendy to imply that probably the most politically powerful religion in the world (and possibly the most powerful NGO in the world wholesale too) is somehow being oppressed and trodden underfoot by parties far, far less powerful than it is?

OK, but there is a group of religions (Mormons are Christians) which are fair game and another that are untouchable.  I just dislike the double standards.  If you are going to respect some religions then respect them all.  Christians might be the most politically powerful but they're also an easy target that are not going to bite back.

 

As for trendy, surely it is trendy to have a go at Christians rahter than pretend they are oppressed?  

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, murphy said:

OK, but there is a group of religions (Mormons are Christians) which are fair game and another that are untouchable.  I just dislike the double standards.  If you are going to respect some religions then respect them all.  Christians might be the most politically powerful but they're also an easy target that are not going to bite back.

 

As for trendy, surely it is trendy to have a go at Christians rahter than pretend they are oppressed?  

I'd certainly agree that you should treat them all the same way - personally I do in fact view all the Abrahamic and most organised religion in the same way, as said earlier in this thread. TBF Christians bite back (either legislatively or literally) in more places than they don't - ask anyone who is in a marginalised group in certain parts of the US, a lot of Africa, most of Latin America and all of Russia about the truth of that. It only tends to be the more "secular" countries (still a significant minority in the world) where turning the other cheek happens more often.

 

I'd say similar about the last sentence, too - being an edgy atheist is really 2015, and with the way things have changed politically in the US in particular since then it's all a bit different now IMO. Playing the victim is the new trend, it seems - can't actually knock it because it does seem remarkably effective as a tool.

[Strokes]

10 hours ago, murphy said:

 

This has irritated me much more than it should  

 

Since when do Buddhists worship 'a ton of gods'?

And Scientologists believe in God don't they?

 

And of course, the only religion that they are brave enough to mock is the 'boring Christian' one, which is fair game and practically encouraged these days whereas mocking any other religion would be some kind of hate crime.

 

 

So much for 'light-hearted relief'   

Jedi’s got left well alone though.

[worthosoriginals]

On 20/07/2020 at 12:37, Ollie93 said:

I'd say a lot is found through the finding of bones, skeletons, artefacts, ancient ruins?

 

Well it's not a separate point, you asked why I don't think the bible can be considered evidence, and as stated above, how can something which tells the story of a man feeding 5000 people with a singular fish and loaf of bread, which i'd deem as close to impossible, be considered as factual evidence? 

Not a very germnerous act either was it Ollie? 

On the menu today for you lot, you can have either a bit of fish or some bread no butter, unsure if fish will be cooked. Sorry that today i haven't catered for anybody with wheat allergies, vegans or vegetarians. 

After you've had your feast il be doing some card tricks.