Championship - 2020/2021

[urban.spaceman]

Birmingham essentially scrapping their academy in favour of 'B' and 'C' teams:

 

 

 

[urban.spaceman]

Sorry, couldn't find the BLM thread to post it in.

 

Mods pls move.

[KFS]

1 hour ago, ealingfox said:

If you dont also boo the poppy or laying of wreaths at Remembrance fixtures then it seems actually you aren't opposed to political stuff or virtue signalling at the football, it's just that there's something about anti-racism in particular that really gets your goat.

This. Never seen a group of fans boo clapping of a deceased fan...

[urban.spaceman]

1 hour ago, ealingfox said:

If you dont also boo the poppy or laying of wreaths at Remembrance fixtures then it seems actually you aren't opposed to political stuff or virtue signalling at the football, it's just that there's something about anti-racism in particular that really gets your goat.

I can't be the only one who's never considered the poppy/remembrance to be a political thing?

[ealingfox]

1 minute ago, urban.spaceman said:

I can't be the only one who's never considered the poppy/remembrance to be a political thing?

 

I'd never considered anti-racism to be a political thing but here we are.

 

I would suggest James McLean is adequate evidence that the poppy is political. 

[urban.spaceman]

4 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

I'd never considered anti-racism to be a political thing but here we are.

 

I would suggest James McLean is adequate evidence that the poppy is political. 

For many, Black Lives Matter is a political thing and not an anti-racism thing. There's a massive difference with the phrase 'black lives matter' and the movement 'Black Lives Matter'. It's the latter that people object to.

 

James McLean has his own objections, and for reasons I understand, but which I just disagree with. But for most everyone else it's simply about paying respect to the war dead and in particular reference to WWI and WWII. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

The kneeling was used by the protest groups at BLM marches, the same groups that ended up burning flags in the UK and looting stores over in USA. They actively want to defund the police and it's listed as an aim on their website.

 

Now the current kneeling may not be a representation of the BLM protests or group, but just advocating that 'Black Lives Matter', but the knee will always be connected to the original protests due to them using it in the early days and the police officers kneeling etc. The average football fan (especially Millwall with all due respect to them), isn't going to take time out of their day to research and try to figure out what the currently kneeling means, and I doubt there's even an actual answer, it's down to each individual to interpret it how they want.

 

It'd be interesting to see what the Millwall fans would do if there was something different happening rather than a kneel and it was linked to the Kick It Out campaign, if they boo'd that then I'd agree with everyone that they're idiots.

 

I think a lot of it also depends on where you're brought up. Ask lads from Leicester, Bradford and Birmingham if they think this country is racist and you'll get a completely different answer to those from places like Newcastle, Somerset and Huddersfield (just randomly picked cities).

 

I don't think everyone on here or in life will ever agree with each other, so it's a pointless argument really!

[CosbehFox]

39 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Birmingham essentially scrapping their academy in favour of 'B' and 'C' teams:

 

 

 

Absolutely baffling in one way, totally expected in another. It’s been Birmingham’s main source of joy in recent years and they’ve scrapped it. Them and WBA were ahead of the curve on youngsters around Brum as well. Villa didn’t have the same success 

[ealingfox]

5 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

For many, Black Lives Matter is a political thing and not an anti-racism thing. There's a massive difference with the phrase 'black lives matter' and the movement 'Black Lives Matter'. It's the latter that people object to.

 

James McLean has his own objections, and for reasons I understand, but which I just disagree with. But for most everyone else it's simply about paying respect to the war dead and in particular reference to WWI and WWII. 

 

Yep, so in either case if you want to make it a political thing then you easily can. If you want to take it in good faith then it doesn't have to be a political thing.

 

I can pretend I can't separate out Remembrance Sunday and Armistice Day from the nationalist elements and wrongdoers who subvert them for their own causes, but I don't because I have a brain.

 

So how about people stop pretending they can't separate this from the political elements and wrongdoers who subvert the idea for their own causes? They can, they just don't want to because they want to oppose the whole.

[CosbehFox]

1 minute ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

The kneeling was used by the protest groups at BLM marches, the same groups that ended up burning flags in the UK and looting stores over in USA. They actively want to defund the police and it's listed as an aim on their website.

 

Now the current kneeling may not be a representation of the BLM protests or group, but just advocating that 'Black Lives Matter', but the knee will always be connected to the original protests due to them using it in the early days and the police officers kneeling etc.

l

 

If we want to go back to the original ‘knee’, it was the civil rights movement of 1960s. Most famously the Memphis Kneel-In which successfully was a key mark in the end of segregation. 
 

So if it’s being reclaimed by sportsman as something more pure as akin to that, then let’s get cracking with it.

[ealingfox]

6 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

The kneeling was used by the protest groups at BLM marches, the same groups that ended up burning flags in the UK and looting stores over in USA. They actively want to defund the police and it's listed as an aim on their website.

 

Now the current kneeling may not be a representation of the BLM protests or group, but just advocating that 'Black Lives Matter', but the knee will always be connected to the original protests due to them using it in the early days and the police officers kneeling etc. The average football fan (especially Millwall with all due respect to them), isn't going to take time out of their day to research and try to figure out what the currently kneeling means, and I doubt there's even an actual answer, it's down to each individual to interpret it how they want.

 

It'd be interesting to see what the Millwall fans would do if there was something different happening rather than a kneel and it was linked to the Kick It Out campaign, if they boo'd that then I'd agree with everyone that they're idiots.

 

I think a lot of it also depends on where you're brought up. Ask lads from Leicester, Bradford and Birmingham if they think this country is racist and you'll get a completely different answer to those from places like Newcastle, Somerset and Huddersfield (just randomly picked cities).

 

I don't think everyone on here or in life will ever agree with each other, so it's a pointless argument really!

 

The kneeling was also used by plenty of other people. Are you really going to decry the whole thing because of a tiny minority? 

 

How about we condemn all Brexit supporters because of the terrorist that killed Jo Cox? Would you say that was fair?

Edited 8 December 2020 by ealingfox

[Leicester_Loyal]

12 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

If we want to go back to the original ‘knee’, it was the civil rights movement of 1960s. Most famously the Memphis Kneel-In which successfully was a key mark in the end of segregation. 
 

So if it’s being reclaimed by sportsman as something more pure as akin to that, then let’s get cracking with it.

Yeah that was MLK wasn't it? I read about that the other day tbf, didn't know he used it (if that's the right word).

10 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

The kneeling was also used by plenty of other people. Are you really going to decry the whole thing because of a tiny minority? 

 

How about we condemn all Brexit supporters because of the terrorist that killed Jo Cox? Would you say that was fair?

I'm just giving reasonings behind an opposite point of view.

 

As already stated, you won't ever see it that way, whereas others will, your view won't change, and neither will theres. This topic has been done to death on here numerous times, it's the same arguments put forward by both sides every time.

Edited 8 December 2020 by Leicester_Loyal

[urban.spaceman]

20 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

Yep, so in either case if you want to make it a political thing then you easily can. If you want to take it in good faith then it doesn't have to be a political thing.

 

I can pretend I can't separate out Remembrance Sunday and Armistice Day from the nationalist elements and wrongdoers who subvert them for their own causes, but I don't because I have a brain.

 

So how about people stop pretending they can't separate this from the political elements and wrongdoers who subvert the idea for their own causes? They can, they just don't want to because they want to oppose the whole.

No, one (the poppy) is an act of remembrance, the other was explicitly already a political act. They were literally wearing the BLM logo on their shirts last season and the taking of the knee is a gesture popularised by the same movement. The PL swapped to the No Room For Racism campaign for the very reason of “We’re drawing a clear distinction between a moral cause and a political movement.” I don't remember any booing of No Room For Racism or Kick It Out in the past - though I'm willing to be corrected - but neither of those campaigns have the same baggage as BLM. Les Ferdinand and QPR's stance on stopping taking the knee was pretty much perfect IMO. 

 

@BlueSi13's post pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter:

On 07/12/2020 at 10:07, BlueSi13 said:

You simply cannot separate taking the knee with Black Lives Matter.  Though a few on here are trying their best, it simply can't be done when their banners are all over the stadiums, logo's popping up on screens during play, presenters/pundits wearing badges, adverts during add breaks etc etc etc etc etc.  In the minds of most football fans, taking the knee begins and ends with BLM, not anti-racism.

 

People have long memories, we all remember the violence, the attacks on police, desecrating the cenotaph, vandalising Churchill's statue, the openly marxist call, to destroy capitalism, to abolish the police, destroy the nuclear family, open borders, for all white people to apologise for their "white-privilige", all while chanting "TAKE THE KNEE".  

 

As I posted earlier in this thread, if this was really all about fighting discrimination against of all forms, why does over half the country feel like it's significantly damaged race relations?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/27/black-lives-matter-has-increased-racial-tension-55-say-in-uk-poll

 

To break that poll down further, 44% of BAME respondents also think that it's made things worse.  Only 17% of respondents think it's actually done some good.

 

I personally wouldn't boo, but booing BLM does not mean you are booing black people.

 

Racism should be tackled in all forms.  But not expecting a backlash following the scenes we saw over the summer was naive at best.  

 

 

As for the poppy, it's *explicitly* about remembrance. It's deeply personal to a lot of people because most families in Britain and Europe were closely affected by two world wars that took place on our own soil. It's not political.

[urban.spaceman]

Great Boo's up Edmund.

 

 

[urban.spaceman]

 

 

Edited 8 December 2020 by urban.spaceman

[Leicester_Loyal]

So they don't take the knee and the crowd actually applauds and doesn't boo?

 

Strange that

[Nalis]

8 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Great Boo's up Edmund.

 

 

'They're saying boo-urns'

[Corky]

38 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

So they don't take the knee and the crowd actually applauds and doesn't boo?

 

Strange that

Some players did.

 

I thought they'd boo again so glad I'm wrong and can't tar all with the same brush.

 

Let's hope it all leads to change which is what we want.

[Paninistickers]

Sheffield Weds 0-2 down. Cannot stand the club. One single trophy since 1928. Third division regulars. Haven't been in the PL since the 90s. Bang on about the full monty..Insist on using east Midlands airport. And they fawn all over Vardy and Pearson.

 

They ought to get their  own heroes. And use thier own airport. 

 

 

[Leicester_Loyal]

10 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Sheffield Weds 0-2 down. Cannot stand the club. One single trophy since 1928. Third division regulars. Haven't been in the PL since the 90s. Bang on about the full monty..Insist on using east Midlands airport. And they fawn all over Vardy and Pearson.

 

They ought to get their  own heroes. And use thier own airport. 

 

 

They've been shit for years, same with Birmingham.

[Leicester_Loyal]

11 minutes ago, Corky said:

Some players did.

 

I thought they'd boo again so glad I'm wrong and can't tar all with the same brush.

 

Let's hope it all leads to change which is what we want.

I didn't think any Millwall players did tbf, thought it was only Reading players that did.

 

This was shown as well on Sky.

 

 

[Leicester_Loyal]

 

Yeah doesn't look like any Millwall players took the knee. Here's the video for anyone who hasn't seen it.

[Guest claude_leic]

Such a shame that it has come to this but it was all too predictable- thanks Sky Sports for turning English football into a South Park episode. I feel this could have been avoided if we moved on from taking the knee in every single game this season, or actually gave teams and players a choice and didn't judge them if they did or didn't take part.

 

My issue is with Sky Sports who demonstrated after the Coventry QPR game that the knee is not a choice, but something which should be observed. The half time coverage was laughable and like something off Brass Eye. Pitch side analysis was required to fully understand why QPR and Coventry had taken the (wrong) decision to not take the knee over an event which had already been addressed in the previous season (QPR have since started taking the knee again). I found the intervention and moral superiority from Sky amusing (and this feeds into a broader point about companies and celebrities "virtue signalling"). This is the company which has made football extortionately expensive, schedules games at times which are impractical for fans, and created an unequal football pyramid whereby the premier league clubs hold all the wealth and the others struggle to survive. Maybe if Sky actually took the wider ("Marxist") aims of the BLM movement more seriously, we could create a fair footballing pyramid that prioritises fans rather than themselves?

 

What Millwall fans did against Derby was unhelpful, but not surprising. I personally would never boo Leicester players taking the knee because I don't want to surround my club in a whirlwind of negativity and also I'm aware of the damage it may cause to some of our black players and how they would perceive it. I know it only takes less than 5 seconds, but it's perpetual use was always going to annoy football fans because nothing has ever been as forced as this. How many people agree with knee taking before every game in football (50%?) yet 100% of prem footballers do it every week. I also think most football fans love football because it's relatively free from the political jargon which increasingly takes over every aspect of life.

 

The continued use of the knee for the new season was always going to pose the question, "when do we stop doing this?" One of the answers I have seen on Twitter is, "until racism is eradicated," which is obviously not even measurable. Racism in football is a complex issue.As someone who has been going to Leicester games home and away since 2005, I can count on one hand the instances of racism I have encountered. I often wonder what somebody who doesn't attend football games imagines racism in the ground to be like. I think the main areas where racism is prevalent in football is online (where cowards hide behind fake accounts) and at a grass roots level which is tragic because it reduces participation by certain groups- these are the areas that need tackling.

 

There is absolutely no way that the BLM movement and knee taking is not political (I can't be bothered to go into this). Even if you don't think it's contentious, a sizeable portion of people do. All you need to do its look on Twitter and look at the most vocal proponents of these initiatives and the ideas that go alongside them.I also think if you asked fans about Kick it Out and any other anti racism initiative it would get near 100% universal support. People's contention is BLM and the culty taking of the knee.

 

People always use the example of the poppy being political interference in football. I would argue that the impact of the first and second world war isn't comparable to a political activist movement. However, I would **** off the football remembrance day traditions instantly if it meant football could be protected, in a reasonable way, from excessive outside interference in the future. I'm worried about the future of football for match going fans with VAR being the biggest threat. Football is increasingly shaped by non match going fans and catered towards the type of people who subscribe to Arsenal fan TV and use pronouns in their online bios.

[Spudulike]

Have we had a comment from Dion Dublin yet? 

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

 

Yeah doesn't look like any Millwall players took the knee. Here's the video for anyone who hasn't seen it.

I hope no one at Millwall looks into the origins of the raised right fist as per shown here. As they will find an origin which isn't far from politics of marxism