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Koke

Championship - 2020/2021

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I can't stand Millwall but it's a sad day when we ban dissent of a political gesture.

 

Regardless of one's personal feelings on the BLM and its aims, abrogating the right to dissent is the start of a very slippery slope and something that has wider implications beyond football.

Edited by Buce
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1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

I can't stand Millwall but it's a sad day when we ban dissent of a political gesture.

 

Regardless of one's personal feelings on the BLM movements and its aims, abrogating the right to dissent is the start of a very slippery slope and something that has wider implications beyond football.

Personally think taking the knee in the name of "black lives matter" and the political movement "Black Lives Matter" are two clearly different things. Footballing authorities in the UK have made that blindingly obvious IMO. I'm not even entirely sure they call it "black lives matter" anymore.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/premier-league-drops-black-lives-matter-slogan-from-players-shirts-12068430

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/sep/10/premier-league-drop-black-lives-matter-badge-from-shirts-for-own-campaign

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/11/10/premier-league-distances-black-lives-matter-campaign/

 

 

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2 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Personally think taking the knee in the name of "black lives matter" and the political movement "Black Lives Matter" are two clearly different things. Footballing authorities in the UK have made that blindingly obvious IMO. I'm not even entirely sure they call it "black lives matter" anymore.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/premier-league-drops-black-lives-matter-slogan-from-players-shirts-12068430

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/sep/10/premier-league-drop-black-lives-matter-badge-from-shirts-for-own-campaign

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/11/10/premier-league-distances-black-lives-matter-campaign/

 

 

I noticed that Sky still display the BLM logo at the top of the screen during matches. There's also huge banners in the stands (including ours). 

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1 minute ago, Spudulike said:

I noticed that Sky still display the BLM logo at the top of the screen during matches. There's also huge banners in the stands (including ours). 

So would you be booing at our first home game if players take a knee?

 

Or do you realise they're not supporting a political group in America?

 

The BLM logo that Sky use is the one designed by Troy Deeney if i'm right in saying. It's not "the" logo.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

So would you be booing at our first home game if players take a knee?

 

Or do you realise they're not supporting a political group in America?

 

The BLM logo that Sky use is the one designed by Troy Deeney if i'm right in saying. It's not "the" logo.

 

 

I don't think he said anything like that tbf.

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4 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

I don't think he said anything like that tbf.

You have to remember, you're only allowed to be one extreme or the other. You've got to be a militant black loving anti white person, or militant white loving anti black person. No middle ground allowed.

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1 hour ago, AKCJ said:

So would you be booing at our first home game if players take a knee?

 

Or do you realise they're not supporting a political group in America?

 

The BLM logo that Sky use is the one designed by Troy Deeney if i'm right in saying. It's not "the" logo.

 

 

No idea why you're asking me that. Odd. 

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Football should have took a different route when Les Ferdinand questioned the taking of the knee, it was a good initial gesture but means nothing if nothing else happens. It means no more than wearing a sloganed bib during the warm up. Certain players have already decided to do something different, Kazim-Richards standing whilst everyone kneels for example. 

The focus should be solely on the "no room for racism and discrimination in football", they have tried to differentiate it from the BLM but don't want cut all links to it in grounds etc, probably of fear of a backlash. 

 

Black Lives Matter has nothing to do with football, it's huge in America where black lives are genuinely in danger and its important it forces change. 

 

Racism and discrimination goes far further than the black community in football, but its almost like they are being pushed aside and seen as less important. Is taking the knee now seen worldwide as a symbol of anti-racism and discrimination? or is it associated with a particular political group? 

 

Of course, I wouldn't actively boo anyone taking the knee and anyone who clearly gets anrgy about it needs to take a look at themselves. But there does need to be a discussion about what it is achieving. 

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1 minute ago, RowlattsFox said:

Racism and discrimination goes far further than the black community in football, but its almost like they are being pushed aside and seen as less important. Is taking the knee now seen worldwide as a symbol of anti-racism and discrimination? or is it associated with a particular political group

I don't feel pushed aside or feel less important. 

 

I'm able to distinguish that they take the knee to send a message that all discrimination is bad and if that also consists of discrimination against black people, and highlighting the problem of that, then what's the issue? 

 

Why can taking the knee not be seen as a symbol of anti-racism and the stand against discrimination against anyone, not just black people? Isn't this what the Premier League have done and stated? 

 

Those Millwall fans who booed probably just link taking the knee American style is associated only with the Black Lives Matter movement - if you don't believe in that then that's fair enough, each to their own. But is that link wrong in the way players take the knee here before a game these days? It's not that players are saying only Black Lives Matter and all other discrimination is put aside. 

 

As a person of Asian descent/heritage whatever you want to call it, I really don't feel 'pushed aside' and if people are thinking like that, why are they speaking for other people that haven't asked to be spoken for? 

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1 hour ago, filbertway said:

You have to remember, you're only allowed to be one extreme or the other. You've got to be a militant black loving anti white person, or militant white loving anti black person. No middle ground allowed.

Agreed. I saw Ricky Gervious recently on a YouTube video talk about how really left wing and really right wing just circle around until they meet each other, and it's true.

 

Centerism doesn't seem to exist anymore; you're either so far right or so far left.

Edited by Fox92
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Saying nothing about the BLM movement in the UK, just in case there was any doubt, any doubt at all, what it is about in the US, here's an idea.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/opinions/systemic-racism-police-evidence-criminal-justice-system/

 

Look at the peer reviewed scientific research within the article to know exactly what the issue is.

Edited by leicsmac
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56 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

I'm just trying to highlight how ridiculous it is that people are booing the taking of the knee over the things @Spudulike said.

 

I'm not suggesting that he would boo, or even that he implied it. 

My apologies, but is just seemed a weird question to ask considering he didn't personally say he'd boo anything.

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I am going to admit I am completely fed up with things like 'taking the knee' and can understand why people would boo it. Whilst I am wholly against racism and broadly aligned with BLM, I am completely against the precedent of having corporately sponsored movements shoved down my throat because I want to watch the football. Big businesses have started pretending to care about social causes more and more over the past few years and it is sickening (not because of the movements, but because it's purely for commercial spin). There are many places for activism but for me, that isn't on a football pitch with presenters telling people how they should feel (about a cause they had probably never bothered to read up about until a few months ago). Virtue signalling is annoying at the best of times but borderline offensive when its huge businesses run almost exclusively by rich white men that are doing it.

 

 

As an aside I find the phrase 'taking the knee' hilarious.

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43 minutes ago, bmt said:

I am going to admit I am completely fed up with things like 'taking the knee' and can understand why people would boo it. Whilst I am wholly against racism and broadly aligned with BLM, I am completely against the precedent of having corporately sponsored movements shoved down my throat because I want to watch the football. Big businesses have started pretending to care about social causes more and more over the past few years and it is sickening (not because of the movements, but because it's purely for commercial spin). There are many places for activism but for me, that isn't on a football pitch with presenters telling people how they should feel (about a cause they had probably never bothered to read up about until a few months ago). Virtue signalling is annoying at the best of times but borderline offensive when its huge businesses run almost exclusively by rich white men that are doing it.

 

 

As an aside I find the phrase 'taking the knee' hilarious.

There is literally nothing stopping you from still doing this.

 

Matches still kick off on time. The concept of players taking the knee does not mean football stops. 

 

Why should football not send out anti-discrimination messages? They have the audience. They have the viewers to project that message. It's a perfect opportunity to do so with the coverage football gets around the world. 

 

Is it not a good thing that presenters might now be aware? Is awareness not what a lot of things in the world are about? So what if they only just took notice a few months ago. The fact they are taking notice - for whatever reason - is a good thing in the fight against discrimination. Any kind. 

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Just now, StanSP said:

There is literally nothing stopping you from still doing this.

 

Matches still kick off on time. The concept of players taking the knee does not mean football stops. 

 

Why should football not send out anti-discrimination messages? They have the audience. They have the viewers to project that message. It's a perfect opportunity to do so with the coverage football gets around the world. 

 

Is it not a good thing that presenters might now be aware? Is awareness not what a lot of things in the world are about? So what if they only just took notice a few months ago. The fact they are taking notice - for whatever reason - is a good thing in the fight against discrimination. Any kind. 

I agree with all that if you see taking the stand as genuine. I don't, they're taking a stand to be seen to be taking a stand. And for me that isn't a good thing.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Uh oh sounds like a lot of Millwall players are going to take the knee off their own backs this evening. Live on Sky

So some might boo those taking the knee but at the same time be in favour of the new initiative. This would've provided a good test to see if they really were just protesting against BLM or are actually racists. What an inconclusive mess that football has got itself into and only has itself to blame. 

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If you dont also boo the poppy or laying of wreaths at Remembrance fixtures then it seems actually you aren't opposed to political stuff or virtue signalling at the football, it's just that there's something about anti-racism in particular that really gets your goat.

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5 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:


Your comparison of N.Ireland is completely irrelevant in my view, as there’s a link. The people behind the determination of N.Ireland should be Northern Irish - not English - you’ve then used the extreme example of a terrorist attack.
 

 

I'm not sure why you think the example I gave was irrelevant.

 

The Peace Process involved the political representatives of not just Northern Ireland, but also that of the rest of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland.  And since it's primarily a constitutional issue, anyone in England, Scotland or Wales is entitled to an opinion on what they think might be a peaceful and positive way forward.  

 

You don't have to have "directly suffered" to be able to input into the debate.  Enough bombs went off on Mainland Britain in the 1970/80's for anyone living here to have an opinion. 

 

It's not about "dictating the topic" or "setting the agenda".   It's about constructive opinions and trying to sort out problems.

 

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1 hour ago, StanSP said:

How do you know this? 

I don't, it's an opinion. 

 

37 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

If you dont also boo the poppy or laying of wreaths at Remembrance fixtures then it seems actually you aren't opposed to political stuff or virtue signalling at the football, it's just that there's something about anti-racism in particular that really gets your goat.

Nobody here has said they would boo though have they? 

 

For the record I don't think remembrance day is political, and if I did I would understand booing it. 

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42 minutes ago, worth_the_wait said:

I'm not sure why you think the example I gave was irrelevant.

 

The Peace Process involved the political representatives of not just Northern Ireland, but also that of the rest of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland.  And since it's primarily a constitutional issue, anyone in England, Scotland or Wales is entitled to an opinion on what they think might be a peaceful and positive way forward.  

 

You don't have to have "directly suffered" to be able to input into the debate.  Enough bombs went off on Mainland Britain in the 1970/80's for anyone living here to have an opinion. 

 

It's not about "dictating the topic" or "setting the agenda".   It's about constructive opinions and trying to sort out problems.

 

It’s irrelevant because firstly there is a diplomatic process for the will of Northern Ireland to which we voted MPs into power. A diplomatic process to which discussion was mainly led by those affected directly in NI. 
 

The consultation took place between the four nations; the other MPs supporting and respecting the views from Northern Ireland. Also your original post didn’t say political representatives but instead used the extreme of a terrorism victim - no need to even get into the complexities of who is the aggressor in the context of terrorism (hence irrelevance). 

So if we compare that to Millwall fans coming up with alternative ideas to fight racism rather than the knee. There is the key ingredient missing in the lack of consultation to Millwall’s non white players or any other supporter group related to anti racism/anti discrimination. As my original post said, I really hope Millwall’s right-back Romeo who expressed his disappointment on Saturday with the booing was given the right to consider these actions and whether it’s the right thing to do. 

 

I’m fairly sure for those non white players involved in the sport of football, they’ve had enough of other people telling this is how you should combat racism or discrimination. I’m stepping away from the original booing of Saturday, it’s their right to display it that if they wish. However for the Millwall supporters club saying ‘no this is how you are doing’ is completely wrong without actually asking those affected their thoughts. When in reality, the hardship of those supporters on Saturday was a five second period where the players took a knee. If we really cut the bullshit, it’s ****ing laughable watching folk get all snowflakey about just a non aggressive act.
 

Ironically I think if everyone just kept peace during those moments, the story would slowly disappear but instead it’s back in discussion. 
 

Sadly it’s why equality will never exist because it means a dominant party stepping away from being a controller and saying to someone else, you take the reins. We will support your decision. It’s only when that release of control occurs, we get movement ala the Northern Irish peace process. 
 


 

 

Edited by Cardiff_Fox
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