Our system detected that your browser is blocking advertisements on our site. Please help support FoxesTalk by disabling any kind of ad blocker while browsing this site. Thank you.
Jump to content
Koke

Championship - 2020/2021

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

I don’t doubt there are racist people in the crowd at Millwall. But I think it’s too simplistic to look at the booing and attribute it to the fact that EVERY person who booed being a racist.

 

I’m sure there were a fair few who were tired of what they see as virtue signalling. I’m sure there were a few who have taken a political view against the BLM organisation. I’m sure there were a few who just think it’s become an empty gesture and is now a silly fad that is still being forced upon them when they just want to watch some footy.

 

Let’s not forget this is a very underprivileged area and that a large proportion of those who booed today probably face a similar lack of opportunity and forms of discrimination because of their social class, their upbringing, their education. I can imagine that there is huge frustration within those social groups that they are not heard and there is no large-scale campaign for their struggles before every game.

 

For me, the whole conversation around racism has become very polarised. Just like Brexit, and much of the political discourse of the last few years, it’s become very tribal. Either you are with us, support BLM, call anyone who is not completely in line with our view with a racist (and adopt many critical race theory ideologies) or you are racist.

 

I’m not going to defend the Millwall fans who booed by claiming that they are all read up on Marxist political theories and it was a stand against that because it’s a ridiculous notion. Equally, I’m not going to condemn them all as racist knuckleheads. There are more nuances to this than either of those things.

 

This will happen again at other grounds up and down the country and a failure to try and understand why without just going “cos they’re racist”, will only further polarise the groups and the issues.

 

 

:appl:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

The booing (and the venom in the booing) was abhorrent to listen to.

 

Taking the knee is not about supporting the defund-the-police statue-defacing mob, it’s about solidarity with those suffering discrimination (including racism) and trying to eradicate it from society.

Things like at Millwall today shows there’s much work to be done.

 

It's definitely brought out the "I'm not racist but..." mob on the internet.

A bit more peace and love and tolerance in the world wouldn't go amiss.

How do you know that? Do you know the motive for the players (or anyone) that's does this gesture? Do you think there may be better ways of showing solidarity with those facing racism than adopting a pose associated with the mob you refer to? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

How do you know that? Do you know the motive for the players (or anyone) that's does this gesture? Do you think there may be better ways of showing solidarity with those facing racism than adopting a pose associated with the mob you refer to? 

As I’ve posted Millwall and it’s players literally released a statement saying their intentions and beliefs the day before the game. 
 

https://www.millwallfc.co.uk/news/2020/december/first-team-squad-release-statement/

 

‘’We wish to make clear that taking the knee, for us, is in no way representative of any agreement with political messaging or ideology. It is purely about tackling discrimination, as has been the case throughout.’’ 
 

“We will continue to do this until the start of the New Year when a new and comprehensive anti-discrimination strategy will be announced by the club.”

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me, they took the knee the first weekend as an act of support, fair enough but that should have been it. The stance is a clear message and in isolation it had impact. Over time is another meaningless attempt to show that football is doing something. Nothing wrong with a, no room for racism campaign, that should be the focus. But having said that, there is no need to get your knickers in a twist about 5 seconds of kneeling down.

 

I don't think you can punish Millwall, for booing a protest. Even it clearly shows racist connotations. Other than showing them up has *****, if grounds were full they'd be boos in every ground unfortunately. 

 

I don't argue that the Black community experiences racism but in my experience I see more racism towards the Muslim community than anything else.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good to know who's racist on here and who isn't. 

If you can't find it in yourself to condemn booing an anti-racism initiative then it's pretty clear which side of the racist/don't be racist thing. 

 

You may not agree with football becoming political but as @Unabomber said, people seem to have lost their human decency as opposed to making it political or not.

 

You may not agree with a 'political' thing being at football but it's quite bleeding obvious Millwall fans weren't booing that bit. 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Good to know who's racist on here and who isn't. 

If you can't find it in yourself to condemn booing an anti-racism initiative then it's pretty clear which side of the racist/don't be racist thing. 

 

You may not agree with football becoming political but as @Unabomber said, people seem to have lost their human decency as opposed to making it political or not.

 

You may not agree with a 'political' thing being at football but it's quite bleeding obvious Millwall fans weren't booing that bit. 

With respect how do you know what millwall fans were booing? Were you there?

I wasn’t, but I have read one of their forums, North Stand Banter. Gives a better explanation of their thoughts and feelings on it than a few people on here simply labelling them racist.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

Good to know who's racist on here and who isn't. 

If you can't find it in yourself to condemn booing an anti-racism initiative then it's pretty clear which side of the racist/don't be racist thing. 

 

You may not agree with football becoming political but as @Unabomber said, people seem to have lost their human decency as opposed to making it political or not.

 

You may not agree with a 'political' thing being at football but it's quite bleeding obvious Millwall fans weren't booing that bit. 

So you can treat everyone you meet with kindness, fairness and equality. You can have never uttered a racist phrase in your life and never discriminated against someone based on colour, nationality, religion or race.

 

But unless you are fully behind the taking of a knee before football matches then you are a racist?!

 

That right there is the issue. The discourse has moved on to pretty much “comply or you are a racist”. The whole movement has become more about calling other people racist or blaming other people for racism than actually doing anything about tackling racism where it does exist or understanding that the issue is as much to do with social inequality as it is skin colour.

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

So you can treat everyone you meet with kindness, fairness and equality. You can have never uttered a racist phrase in your life and never discriminated against someone based on colour, nationality, religion or race.

 

But unless you are fully behind the taking of a knee before football matches then you are a racist?!

 

That right there is the issue. The discourse has moved on to pretty much “comply or you are a racist”. The whole movement has become more about calling other people racist or blaming other people for racism than actually doing anything about tackling racism where it does exist or understanding that the issue is as much to do with social inequality as it is skin colour.

 

Very true. For people who claim to be so against discrimination the blanket treatment by some on here of all Millwall fans being racist is quite staggering. I wonder what the outrage would be if someone claimed all Muslims to be terrorists or all black people to be criminals.  Seems to be Millwall are fair game and they can all be classed as Neanderthal racists no problem whatsoever.

About time the players did a handstand before kick off until this blanket discrimination against innocent Millwall fans has stopped.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

So you can treat everyone you meet with kindness, fairness and equality. You can have never uttered a racist phrase in your life and never discriminated against someone based on colour, nationality, religion or race.

 

But unless you are fully behind the taking of a knee before football matches then you are a racist?!

 

That right there is the issue. The discourse has moved on to pretty much “comply or you are a racist”. The whole movement has become more about calling other people racist or blaming other people for racism than actually doing anything about tackling racism where it does exist or understanding that the issue is as much to do with social inequality as it is skin colour.

 

Not really what I said. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

 

“Good to know who's racist on here and who isn't. 

If you can't find it in yourself to condemn booing an anti-racism initiative then it's pretty clear which side of the racist/don't be racist thing.”

If you're not anti racist, what could you be? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, StanSP said:

If you're not anti racist, what could you be? 

You miss the point, people just don’t want it at the football.

As you failed to answer my question earlier and @Unabomberlast night, I presume you haven’t taken time to see the reason behind the booing from a Millwall point of view. Far easier to label them all racist and take the internet well dones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, TamworthFoxes said:

You miss the point, people just don’t want it at the football.

As you failed to answer my question earlier and @Unabomberlast night, I presume you haven’t taken time to see the reason behind the booing from a Millwall point of view. Far easier to label them all racist and take the internet well dones.

“The gesture of ‘taking the knee’ before matches provides an opportunity for us to do exactly that and continues to allow all those playing to publicly showcase their support – on behalf of the whole squad – for the fight against discrimination.

 

“We wish to make clear that taking the knee, for us, is in no way representative of any agreement with political messaging or ideology. It is purely about tackling discrimination, as has been the case throughout.”
 

This is from the statement made by Millwall players on Thursday, explicitly stating that it is nothing to do with any political messaging but purely a show of solidarity with the fight against discrimination of all kinds. 
 

So many of the replies to this tweet were Millwall fans stating they would boo anyway, so excuse me if I think that their reasons are quite frankly excuses. There is no justification for booing a purely anti racist gesture. As has been said above, if you make an act that seems to be against anti-racism, you can hardly be surprised when people perceive that to be racists. 
 

I completely understand the argument that not enough is being done in football to tackle racism beyond gestures by the governing bodies, but no one can tell me that people are booing the gesture because they think it doesn’t do enough. I can tell you from a certain level of experience within the non-league that when it comes to actually taking action against racism, in many cases there is a long, long way to go. 

 

Football needed a new initiative to push for equality, the ones tried in the past were too easily ignored. This can’t be ignored and the reaction of some is showing that it is forcing people to reflect on themselves, and maybe they don’t like what they see in the mirror. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

So you can treat everyone you meet with kindness, fairness and equality. You can have never uttered a racist phrase in your life and never discriminated against someone based on colour, nationality, religion or race.

 

But unless you are fully behind the taking of a knee before football matches then you are a racist?!

 

Yep, that's about the sum of it.    it isn't enough to actually treat people as your equal.    That doesn't count.   You've got to show it!

 

Kneel you damn fools, I say.  Kneel. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, ANDLeicester said:

“The gesture of ‘taking the knee’ before matches provides an opportunity for us to do exactly that and continues to allow all those playing to publicly showcase their support – on behalf of the whole squad – for the fight against discrimination.

 

“We wish to make clear that taking the knee, for us, is in no way representative of any agreement with political messaging or ideology. It is purely about tackling discrimination, as has been the case throughout.”
 

This is from the statement made by Millwall players on Thursday, explicitly stating that it is nothing to do with any political messaging but purely a show of solidarity with the fight against discrimination of all kinds. 
 

So many of the replies to this tweet were Millwall fans stating they would boo anyway, so excuse me if I think that their reasons are quite frankly excuses. There is no justification for booing a purely anti racist gesture. As has been said above, if you make an act that seems to be against anti-racism, you can hardly be surprised when people perceive that to be racists. 
 

I completely understand the argument that not enough is being done in football to tackle racism beyond gestures by the governing bodies, but no one can tell me that people are booing the gesture because they think it doesn’t do enough. I can tell you from a certain level of experience within the non-league that when it comes to actually taking action against racism, in many cases there is a long, long way to go. 

 

Football needed a new initiative to push for equality, the ones tried in the past were too easily ignored. This can’t be ignored and the reaction of some is showing that it is forcing people to reflect on themselves, and maybe they don’t like what they see in the mirror. 

The statement was made by Millwall officials, it does not represent the fans.

They are unhappy with the club for releasing that.

If LCFC release a statement saying Dennis Wise is a club legend and Ian Holloway our greatest ever manager would that represent the fans thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Anti BLM. Defund the police!!! What’s that all about

In America more money is given to the police to deal with a lot more services than here. Stuff like social services, youth work is done by police funded groups. The defund the police argument is that more money should be moved to other providers of social issues, stuff that say councils or charities do in this country.

 

It doesn’t mean defund the police entirely. Just that the police should only be funded for law enforcement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, TamworthFoxes said:

The statement was made by Millwall officials, it does not represent the fans.

They are unhappy with the club for releasing that.

If LCFC release a statement saying Dennis Wise is a club legend and Ian Holloway our greatest ever manager would that represent the fans thoughts?

It’s almost as though that no one actually told any of the players what taking the knee is in support off until in the dressing room after the game when someone asked why the fans were booing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, TamworthFoxes said:

The statement was made by Millwall officials, it does not represent the fans.

They are unhappy with the club for releasing that.

If LCFC release a statement saying Dennis Wise is a club legend and Ian Holloway our greatest ever manager would that represent the fans thoughts?

I’m not here to get into an argument, but that is just a ridiculous analogy.

 

It isn’t up to the fans to determine the cause for which their players are taking the knee, it’s is up to the players and they have articulated this in advance. As it has been clearly communicated, the fans can make a decision whether to support it based on that information. 
 

To expand on your analogy, if the player released a statement saying they would be having a minutes silence to commemorate Denis Wise as a club legend and Ian Holloway as our greatest manager ever and the fans then booed this, we would not be surprised that the papers the next day would be suggesting that Leicester fans dislike Wise and Holloway. 
 

Football recognised that the Black Lives Matter movement (rightly or wrongly) wasn’t going to be welcomed in some sections. These actions have been under the flag of ‘No Room for Racism’, conflating the issues is making excuses. It is not wanting to understand the cause, because it is easier not to. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am strongly anti racist. And believe that black and minority groups should be fighting hard for social and economic equality. 

 

But I would wholeheartedly defend those Millwall fans right to boo. You can't allow one form of protest that you agree with then demonise another that you don't. That's a very slippery slope. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

The point you’re missing is that supporting taking a knee before games is not what defines racist or anti-racist.

 

For example, you can be an anti-racist who is fed up of the divisive rhetoric around the BLM movement that the key to solving racism is admitting white guilt, apologising for the actions of our predecessors and that we must start with the presumption that all white people are racist unless willing to partake in some performative action to demonstrate just how anti-racist we are. In your anti-racism you can believe there is a better and more inclusive way to have that discussion.

 

You can be anti-racist but think that actually one of the biggest problems with the current movement is that it seemingly excludes a number of other minority groups who are also discriminated against daily such as Asians and Muslims. That the focus of this movement under the banner of ‘tackling racism’ is disproportionately focused on black people.

 

You can be anti-racist but think that the current movement is futile whilst it refuses to address all issues underlying racism and race inequality such as the distribution of wealth and opportunity, the power hierarchies that exist in society and rely on racism/inequality to subsist, the reticence of the black community to address issues that contribute to their struggle such as the absence of black fathers and young black men becoming embroiled in gang culture and that one of the keys to equality is also black aspiration and that, rather than having a generation feel they are the oppressed through this movement, a better way to solve racial inequality may be to focus on the opportunity rather than the struggle.

 

The reality is that the Premier League jumped on the BLM movement quickly as they had to be seen to be doing something in line with the climate at the time and they went with implementing a taking of the knee before kick off. When it became apparent that this gesture was synonymous with a political organisation who had views wider ranging than black struggle (some of them quite controversial or radical) they swiftly changed from BLM to ‘No Room For Racism’. But they continued the gesture that was synonymous with BLM, taking a knee.


So you now have symbolism that is attached to something other than ‘No Room For Racism’ and should not be surprised that some people might not want to get behind it in its new guise no matter whether or not a player or manager comes out and says “forget the political bit that was there to begin with, this is just about racism”.

 

If the Kick It Out stuff that has been happening for years got the same reaction as this taking of a knee then I’d be onboard with you that football fans are racist and are not supporting on the grounds of their racist views. But this gesture is different, there are more nuances and it comes off the back of months of divisive rhetoric where, as we’ve said, living by the principle of not being racist or discriminatory in your day to day life is seemingly not enough to not be branded a racist.

 

 

 

Exactly this. Put far more eloquently than I ever could.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, ANDLeicester said:

I’m not here to get into an argument, but that is just a ridiculous analogy.

 

It isn’t up to the fans to determine the cause for which their players are taking the knee, it’s is up to the players and they have articulated this in advance. As it has been clearly communicated, the fans can make a decision whether to support it based on that information. 
 

To expand on your analogy, if the player released a statement saying they would be having a minutes silence to commemorate Denis Wise as a club legend and Ian Holloway as our greatest manager ever and the fans then booed this, we would not be surprised that the papers the next day would be suggesting that Leicester fans dislike Wise and Holloway. 
 

Football recognised that the Black Lives Matter movement (rightly or wrongly) wasn’t going to be welcomed in some sections. These actions have been under the flag of ‘No Room for Racism’, conflating the issues is making excuses. It is not wanting to understand the cause, because it is easier not to. 

This is the problem though. It’s not really a player-led thing is it? The Premier League implemented it as an instruction/guidance and the rest followed suit.

 

A few weeks back a couple of Championship teams didn’t do it and got widely criticised. They came out and essentially said: “we hadn’t been told we had to do it - if the guidance was there then of course we would have done it”.

 

Now I’m sure if a player really didn’t want to do it then could probably stay standing. In the same way that if a player didn’t want to join in the applause for a deceased club legend they could not clap. But the problem is that by doing either of those things they would be lambasted so the herd mentality takes over rather than the authenticity of their action.

 

Let’s not pretend this is something the vast majority of players do for any reason other than it’s the thing they’re meant to do right now. When they’re on that knee I’m sure the black players may feel they’re doing something to support a cause but I’m sure plenty of others are thinking about who they’re marking at set pieces, where they’ll make a run from kick-off and whether it’s cold enough that they should have worn gloves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...