5-4-1: Brendan Rodgers' Tactical Masterclass

[Izzy]

Please explain today @StriderHiryu 

[foxfanazer]

1 minute ago, foxile5 said:

Really weird. 

 

How can he get it so right one week and so so wrong the week after. 

Because he's arrogant and overcomplicates things. Just like last season

[foxile5]

10 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

Because he's arrogant and overcomplicates things. Just like last season

There does seem to be an element of over thinking to it. 

[Tuna]

I said it in the match thread, his hubris and monstrous ego will always be his undoing.

[Clever Fox]

His one size fits all plan came unstuck again today. He really needs a plan B.

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Please explain today @StriderHiryu 

Totally the wrong choice of formation and tactics today. He went 3412 I guess to match up with West Ham, but all that ended up happening was that we lacked our usual impetus and the ability to create things with movement through the line was nonexistent. When we switched formations in the second half we looked more likely to do something, although we then got done on the counter. The reason for this was that lacked the extra man in midfield (because we had a back three) and it meant that although we had lots of the ball, we did nothing with it because there wasn't enough movement or options ahead of anyone on the ball. Matching up wingbacks vs wingbacks meant we couldn't create any 2v1's on either flank. We also badly missed Praet and / or Maddison today for that extra creativity in the middle of the park. When we went back to 4141, the wide players got on the ball a lot more often and we started to drag West Ham's defensive block out of shape, even if it was to no avail.

 

But as bad as the tactical setup was, the first two goals we gave away were schoolboy and too many players went missing. That second goal was as bad as we have conceded in years and after 3 brilliant games, Youri was brainfarting all over the pitch, Perez was poor again but this time didn't even have the excuse of being put out wide because he was operating centrally for most of the game.

 

Did anyone have a good game? Maybe Daniel Amartey before he came off injured, which says it all.

 

Today was a tactical DISASTER class, that's for sure. At home to West Ham we should be playing our best formation and imposing our style of play on other teams. Trying something funky away from home to a title contender is fair enough, but if you mix it up too much players can get confused. Look how little out wing-backs did today compared to previous games... the system didn't suit them at all.

 

Next league match is Villa at home, and Rodgers has tried different tactics against them several times... bit nervous now...

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 October 2020 by StriderHiryu

[StriderHiryu]

14 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

Because he's arrogant and overcomplicates things. Just like last season

I'm a big Brendan Rodgers fan, but it's hard to argue against this statement today. In fact I agree with you.

 

West Ham deserve a lot of credit, but I felt like we gave them the points on a platter rather than them totally outplaying us. Last week Rodgers out thought Guardiola but this week Moyes (via Zoom!) out thought Rodgers. Or more likely Rodgers out thought himself.

 

If we went with 3 at the back in order to give Fofana his debut, perhaps that would have made some sense. We were missing Praet and Maddison, but we could have gone with Gray / Under / Albrighton as additional wide options or put Hamza in the middle and pushed Tielemans up. So we really should have stuck to the 4231.

 

Very disappointing result and performance. We deserved nothing and in fact had West Ham won by a larger margin, we could have had no complaints.

[Facecloth]

@StriderHiryu do you feel at times we play ourselves into trouble. Try ridiculous balls that give the receiver no hope of doing anything with it. Either played at head height or to a player surrounded by opposition players. Prime example was first half when Mendy absolutely smashed a ball at Perez when he had 3 West Ham players around him. Not only was the ball difficult to control, he also had very little chance of doing much with it. I do feel when we're not playing well some of our players are happy to playba teammate into trouble, just so they aren't the one who loses the ball.

[sheffield_fox]

Spot on analysis in this thread. 

 

Overcomplicated it with an alternative system when we should have been imposing ourselves on the game. 

 

By the time we changed to a slicker system, the game was gone and west ham were well drilled enough to lock us out. 

[StriderHiryu]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

@StriderHiryu do you feel at times we play ourselves into trouble. Try ridiculous balls that give the receiver no hope of doing anything with it. Either played at head height or to a player surrounded by opposition players. Prime example was first half when Mendy absolutely smashed a ball at Perez when he had 3 West Ham players around him. Not only was the ball difficult to control, he also had very little chance of doing much with it. I do feel when we're not playing well some of our players are happy to playba teammate into trouble, just so they aren't the one who loses the ball.

There's an element of that, but I don;t think that was the reason we lost. If anything that moment summarised why our tactical setup was so bad... last week Mendy looked so calm and composed on the ball but today he was panicking like many others because players were not familiar with their roles or positions.

 

Rodgers will always play with a style of play that involves players getting on the ball and playing their way out of trouble. Last week it worked really well, see the GIFs of Tielemans and Mendy. But when players aren't playing well AND are unfamiliar with their roles, it leads to many problems as we saw.

 

I've got to say I am not a fan of this 3412 system at all. It felt like we used it last season because we had so many key players out (Ricardo, Maddison, Chilwell, etc) so it was the best option left to us. But we didn't have to use it today and it got us nowhere. Perhaps it will work better with better personnel, but I'm not convinced.

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, StriderHiryu said:

There's an element of that, but I don;t think that was the reason we lost. If anything that moment summarised why our tactical setup was so bad... last week Mendy looked so calm and composed on the ball but today he was panicking like many others because players were not familiar with their roles or positions.

 

Rodgers will always play with a style of play that involves players getting on the ball and playing their way out of trouble. Last week it worked really well, see the GIFs of Tielemans and Mendy. But when players aren't playing well AND are unfamiliar with their roles, it leads to many problems as we saw.

 

I've got to say I am not a fan of this 3412 system at all. It felt like we used it last season because we had so many key players out (Ricardo, Maddison, Chilwell, etc) so it was the best option left to us. But we didn't have to use it today and it got us nowhere. Perhaps it will work better with better personnel, but I'm not convinced.

I don't think it was the reason we lost, I just see it happening more of we're not playing well, and it makes a bad performance even worse.

[StriderHiryu]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I don't think it was the reason we lost, I just see it happening more of we're not playing well, and it makes a bad performance even worse.

Well to be fair, that's something that is shared by many clubs who play a heavy possession style. Look at Man City last week, they had all of the ball  but gave away lots of sloppy passes, took too long on the ball, resorted to playing it sideways, etc. Even KDB had a poor game by his standards. The same is true of Barcelona and Arsenal under Wenger.

 

Perhaps it's the reason why Liverpool's style is so good in this league, because it doesn't really rely on high technical skill. You just press like monsters and mop up the ball to sustain the attack over and over again until the opposition crumbles.

 

It's also why perhaps Bayern Munich won the Champions League. I feel like their style is the best combination of a high pressing style but also with the technical skill to open up a deep defensive block. Of course they have world class players in every position, which helps a lot!

[Dan LCFC]

To me setting up with a back five today, because it worked away at Man City, is an incredible level of naivety for an experienced manager. I appreciate we were quite hindered in midfield but did we seriously need three centre halves there, and worst of all nobody had any idea how to handle Antonio.

[StriderHiryu]

1 minute ago, Dan LCFC said:

To me setting up with a back five today, because it worked away at Man City, is an incredible level of naivety for an experienced manager. I appreciate we were quite hindered in midfield but did we seriously need three centre halves there, and worst of all nobody had any idea how to handle Antonio.

Yep that's the match summary in a nutshell.

 

Over-complicated the setup for no reason.

[Buzzell]

23 minutes ago, Clever Fox said:

His one size fits all plan came unstuck again today. He really needs a plan B.

It’s not hard to figure out either. Don't play a defensive shape against an defensive team. After the Man City game we should of come into this game with so much confidence and attacked them from the off. Fell right into West Ham’s hands. 

[dayday]

I thought we was comfortable before that first goal, after that we went to pieces , 3cbs only works against the likes of Liverpool and Man City.

 

I would love to know our stats with 3cbs against the so called lesser teams, I would imagine it’s grim reading

[Kopfkino]

It's hard to know whether a different system would have made much difference to the outcome given how much better they were in every respect, they were on it and we really weren't. However, matching them up formation wise didn't help us, they were stronger in that formation than us. 

 

We were hamstrung by the absence of Praet and Maddison, maybe it would have been worth giving KDH a chance, certainly don't think Choudhury could have stepped in there. Football is all about triangles and with the two in midfield we didn't have enough lateral movement and the third centre-half didn't push on to give us the wide triangle. It meant the ball had to keep coming inside and we just hit their big wall in the centre of the pitch.

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

34 minutes ago, Tuna said:

I said it in the match thread, his hubris and monstrous ego will always be his undoing.

 

How was today indicative of any ego? Just naivety in my eyes. Should have rang the changes at half time but I don't think how we set up today was a reflection of Brendan wanting to suck himself off.

[st albans fox]

I still think he came up with a formation to shoe horn amartey into the team to give us extra height to defend set plays 

 

we need to be more positive than that .... if it’s a minor tweak (as in play amartey alongside mendy which I still wouldn’t have been happy to see) then you can go with it but to play 3 atb home to West Ham isn’t great.  Perhaps his mind was taken back to Burnley when we looked so poor defending corners and free kicks  - well the way we set up today made no difference. With DA on the pitch they still got their heads to every corner and free kick 

 

brendan will blame our lack of intensity in pressing but when you take a man out of the equation it’s like trying to press the opposition with ten men .....I’ve only ever seen the top quality sides like Man City in their pomp manage that 

[StriderHiryu]

11 minutes ago, Miquel The Work Geordie said:

 

How was today indicative of any ego? Just naivety in my eyes. Should have rang the changes at half time but I don't think how we set up today was a reflection of Brendan wanting to suck himself off.

Yeah he should have changed it at half time too, it was a waste of 10-15 minutes to persevere with it. Maybe he did that because Amartey would have been withdrawn and he was probably the best of the 3 CBs so might have felt unfair. But we were never getting anything with that system after going two down.

[Farrington fox]

It was a great result for the Hammers. I just hope we get Praet and Maddison fit during this break and don't add any more to the list. 

[SixtiesFox]

1 hour ago, foxfanazer said:

What a difference a week makes. Set us up to lose today

Agreed. Vastly different circumstances so a different approach required. He must have been anticipating West Ham's deep block and his error was further compounded by not changing things sooner. In fact he didn't change the shape until Amartey's injury. Arrogance?

Edited 4 October 2020 by SixtiesFox

[Bob Hazels shorts]

23 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

To me setting up with a back five today, because it worked away at Man City, is an incredible level of naivety for an experienced manager. I appreciate we were quite hindered in midfield but did we seriously need three centre halves there, and worst of all nobody had any idea how to handle Antonio.

We did when Justin spent more time near their corner flag than ours. Master his day job first surely?

 

We basically had a confused back four with Soyuncu multi tasking and Justin frantically trying to get back (but failing) on breaks.

 

Easy to suss, it wasn't working and should've been changed

 

[Ian Nacho]

I was surprised when I saw Amartey in the side, I have to be honest, especially when they only play one up top and he’s a converted winger. 

[st albans fox]

we needed to make the pitch as big as possible and create 2 v 1 opportunities out wide and subsequently inside ......but giving away a man  by having three atb was disastrous for that scenario .....asking way too much of the midfield to support the wider players and still take care of their defensive responsibilities.....