Also in the News - Part 2

[Tommy Fresh]

12 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

You can't enact collective punishment within international law though...

If you actually listen to it, it sounds very much like he was responding to the siege comment and any action being aimed at Hamas. You've spouted on here like he was putting forward the idea himself, and you've purposely ignored part of what was asked and part of his answer. So crack on pal.

Edited 11 October 2023 by Tommy Fresh

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I think there’s an argument that Britain’s natural position in living memory has been centre-right as compared to the world stage, but no more than that. The country is comparatively secular and remember that many European nations have been far more inclined to vote for something described as a “national front” than we have. We tend to be very consistent in our voting choices and political parties almost always need to win over the centre ground to get elected.

It’s one reason why I think PR advocates should be careful what they wish for, but that’s another argument.

I'd agree that the UK has been much better at keeping such viewpoints away at the ballot box, but I'm entirely unsure if the overall record of treatment of women and various minority groups in everyday life is any better than most of them.

 

You'd need a thesis-level study to prove that one way or the other, though.

[Mickyblueeyes]

Sunak and Starmer as our next two choices at PM make me want to emigrate. 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

And will they thank you for ensuring that the labour party are committed to things never getting better either? Maybe if labour did some actual opposing rather than "the problem with the Tories evils are that they're not doing it competently", and you could slide a cig paper between the two in terms of policies on benefits, refugees etc then maybe it wouldn't be a choice between two cheeks of the same arse.

I can see where you're coming from here, but the last time such mooted changes went to the polls in 2019 it got massively shot between the eyes.

 

Now, we can argue about exactly why that was til the cows come home but IMO that's irrelevant - quite simply principle doesn't mean much without the power to enact it, and I'm not sure what measures can be taken to get the broad power necessary to enact the principles you speak of in an effective way.

Edited 11 October 2023 by leicsmac

[Dunge]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

I'd agree that the UK has been much better at keeping such viewpoints away at the ballot box, but I'm entirely unsure if the overall record of treatment of women and various minority groups in everyday life is any better than most of them.

 

You'd need a thesis-level study to prove that one way or the other, though.

Apologies if I wasn’t clear because that was part of my point - I’m not saying that (eg) France is further right than the UK, because mostly it isn’t. But also it’s not fair to paint Britain as a deeply conservative country. It’s more that we have tended to hold our position.

[Voll Blau]

11 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

And will they thank you for ensuring that the labour party are committed to things never getting better either? Maybe if labour did some actual opposing rather than "the problem with the Tories evils are that they're not doing it competently", and you could slide a cig paper between the two in terms of policies on benefits, refugees etc then maybe it wouldn't be a choice between two cheeks of the same arse.

Don't worry, if they get in and that comes to pass then I'll be absolutely voicing my outrage about it. Probably best we give them a chance to actually make things better first before casting judgement though, eh?

 

The guy's doing what he has to do to win an election in our system and I don't like that any more than you do - plenty of what he and the shadow cabinet say makes me baulk - but it's laughable that anyone who claims to be left of centre wouldn't do anything they can at this stage to get rid of the lot we've had to endure for the past 13 years.

Edited 11 October 2023 by Voll Blau

[Daggers]

34 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Starmer on LBC this morning: "Israel has the right to withhold power and water from Gaza".

 

 

Right, I’ve just listened to his full interviews on Times Radio and the Nick Ferrari one on LBC. In neither interview does he use that form of words. 
 

You’ve either misheard or not listened and copy pasted that error from somewhere. 
 

 

[MPH]

Just to add a point…

 

I hope the people who ( rightly) complained  when Russia targeted the energy infrastructure in Ukraine due to the  effect on every day people  are also in disagreement  with Israel cutting off energy food and fuel supplies due to its effect  on every day people.

 

sure, some civilians might get caught in the crossfire when targeting Hamas. I think most of us can ( begrudgingly) see that as a sad part of conflict.

 

Gazas last electricity station ran out of fuel today and cutting off food, fuel and electricity has a direct affect on civilians and there can be no ‘ accidental ‘ part about it..

[Muzzy_no7]

Has the Isreal-Gaza thread been closed? 

[Jattdogg]

Just now, Muzzy_no7 said:

Has the Isreal-Gaza thread been closed? 

Yes. Give it a few and this one will too

[Dunge]

Just now, Muzzy_no7 said:

Has the Isreal-Gaza thread been closed? 

Yes. And it’s feeling like we’re teetering on the edge of a second…

[Daggers]

“Dans ses écrits, un sage Italien dit que le mieux est l'ennemi du bien” - Voltaire

[Daggers]

Chonky gurl lifts the crown in Fat Bear Week

 

https://www.iflscience.com/fat-bear-week-2023-declares-a-chonky-champion-71067

[The Doctor]

16 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Right, I’ve just listened to his full interviews on Times Radio and the Nick Ferrari one on LBC. In neither interview does he use that form of words. 
 

You’ve either misheard or not listened and copy pasted that error from somewhere. 
 

 

I'm quoting the article that LBC have run: https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/sir-keir-starmer-hamas-terrorism-israel-defend-itself/

 

19 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Don't worry, if they get in and that comes to pass then I'll be absolutely voicing my outrage about it. Probably best we give them a chance to actually make things better first before casting judgement though, eh?

 

The guy's doing what he has to do to win an election in our system and I don't like that any more than you do - plenty of what he and the shadow cabinet say makes me baulk - but it's laughable that anyone who claims to be left of centre wouldn't do anything they can at this stage to get rid of the lot we've had to endure for the past 13 years.

To be quite frank I think it's naïve to say this. He's made it clear he won't. Now, maybe he actually agrees with my politics and is just constantly lying through his teeth until he gets elected, at which point he'll actually come out with a social democratic program, but banking on that is imo naïve. 

 

If he's not distinguishable from the Tories, and on policy positions and what him and his shadow cabinet are saying, there's not much, then getting the Tories out doesn't achieve anything because it's just choosing different colour shoelaces on the boot kicking your teeth in 

[oxford blue]

33 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Sunak and Starmer as our next two choices at PM make me want to emigrate. 

Don't choose the USA; a choice of Biden or Trump would be far worse!

[Mickyblueeyes]

3 minutes ago, oxford blue said:

Don't choose the USA; a choice of Biden or Trump would be far worse!

Good point well made Sir. 

[HighPeakFox]

38 minutes ago, Dunge said:

But also it’s not fair to paint Britain as a deeply conservative country.

 

It’s more that we have tended to hold our position.

The very definition of 'conservative'. 

[HighPeakFox]

Come to think of it, I find it somewhat ironic that 'conservative' suggests caution, whereas 'Conservative', has rapidly become 'destroy & pillage everything'. 

[Dunge]

9 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Come to think of it, I find it somewhat ironic that 'conservative' suggests caution, whereas 'Conservative', has rapidly become 'destroy & pillage everything'. 

I don’t think the current Conservative Party even knows what they stand for anymore.

[Alf Bentley]

43 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Frankly, if someone tells you who they are, believe them, and Starmer has repeatedly told us he's a spineless red tory, and as a lifelong labour voter in a constituency that went blue for the first time in 2019, he's not getting my vote. That'll go greens/WEP if they stand, no vote if they don't 

 

If we ever get electoral reform, there could be a value to voting Green, WEP or other minority parties anywhere in the country. For now, it's only worth doing so in the tiny minority of seats where the Greens stand a chance or in the large number of seats where one party has an unassailable majority. Indeed, I voted Green myself in 2019, as I was in Leicester South where Labour had a 20,000+ majority.

 

In a Con/Lab swing seat, the only conceivable electoral impact of you voting for a minor party is to make another Tory govt slightly more likely.

 

I can see 4 potential reasons for an anti-Tory voter making this choice:

1) You genuinely see no difference between current Con and Lab policies and see no historical difference between Labour in power and the Tories in power. If so, the polite response is to say that you should do a bit of research. That's not to say that past Lab govts were perfect or that a future Lab govt would be. But would it be no better than 5+ more years of these Tories?

2) You feel that if we reluctantly accept another Tory govt, then in 2029 the voters will turn to a radical left-wing govt led by the new Corbyn. If so, I'd refer you to the result of the 2019 election (or, indeed, 1983), when the electorate had the option of choosing a more left-wing govt. Personally, I reckon that 5 more years of Tory-inflicted misery and destruction would make a shift to the Far Right more likely in 2029 or sooner, but that's speculation.

3) You are a revolutionary socialist who doesn't really support parliamentary democracy and feel that 5 more years of the Tories would make a socialist revolution more likely.

4) You would prefer to feel morally pure on an individual level, rather than compromise and reluctantly support a less-than-perfect option (Lab) that would almost certainly improve many people's lives to some extent and might improve lives a lot.

 

Reason 1 is for people who are genuinely stupid or too blinkered to consider the evidence. Reasons 2 and 3 are for the "Pure Left" (parliamentary and revolutionary wings, respectively): some Momentum leaders would subscribe to 2, the SWP would subscribe to 3, but wouldn't be honest enough to say it in the public arena.

 

As you don't seem stupid and I'm not picking up the jargon of Hard Left factions, I assume you come under Reason 4. I can quite understand you wanting a Lab govt to do more than it is promising - and it might actually do a bit more, once it has won power, while striving to keep power - without which politics is pissing in the wind. Hell, I'd want it to do more. But if it promises too much, it will not win power and will achieve nothing, just as Corbyn promised more in 2019 and achieved nothing - or less than nothing as his massive defeat handed 5 years of untrammelled power to arguably the most damaging govt in history. I see Reason 4 as, not virtue signaling, so much as well-intended virtue-signaling to oneself:  "Mirror, mirror on the wall,  who's the most socialisty socialist of them all?" "Oh! You are, darling, you are! And your personal purity is worth more than all the people in the country!". Please question your political priorities.

[bmt]

4 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

If we ever get electoral reform, there could be a value to voting Green, WEP or other minority parties anywhere in the country. For now, it's only worth doing so in the tiny minority of seats where the Greens stand a chance or in the large number of seats where one party has an unassailable majority. Indeed, I voted Green myself in 2019, as I was in Leicester South where Labour had a 20,000+ majority.

 

In a Con/Lab swing seat, the only conceivable electoral impact of you voting for a minor party is to make another Tory govt slightly more likely.

 

I can see 4 potential reasons for an anti-Tory voter making this choice:

1) You genuinely see no difference between current Con and Lab policies and see no historical difference between Labour in power and the Tories in power. If so, the polite response is to say that you should do a bit of research. That's not to say that past Lab govts were perfect or that a future Lab govt would be. But would it be no better than 5+ more years of these Tories?

2) You feel that if we reluctantly accept another Tory govt, then in 2029 the voters will turn to a radical left-wing govt led by the new Corbyn. If so, I'd refer you to the result of the 2019 election (or, indeed, 1983), when the electorate had the option of choosing a more left-wing govt. Personally, I reckon that 5 more years of Tory-inflicted misery and destruction would make a shift to the Far Right more likely in 2029 or sooner, but that's speculation.

3) You are a revolutionary socialist who doesn't really support parliamentary democracy and feel that 5 more years of the Tories would make a socialist revolution more likely.

4) You would prefer to feel morally pure on an individual level, rather than compromise and reluctantly support a less-than-perfect option (Lab) that would almost certainly improve many people's lives to some extent and might improve lives a lot.

 

Reason 1 is for people who are genuinely stupid or too blinkered to consider the evidence. Reasons 2 and 3 are for the "Pure Left" (parliamentary and revolutionary wings, respectively): some Momentum leaders would subscribe to 2, the SWP would subscribe to 3, but wouldn't be honest enough to say it in the public arena.

 

As you don't seem stupid and I'm not picking up the jargon of Hard Left factions, I assume you come under Reason 4. I can quite understand you wanting a Lab govt to do more than it is promising - and it might actually do a bit more, once it has won power, while striving to keep power - without which politics is pissing in the wind. Hell, I'd want it to do more. But if it promises too much, it will not win power and will achieve nothing, just as Corbyn promised more in 2019 and achieved nothing - or less than nothing as his massive defeat handed 5 years of untrammelled power to arguably the most damaging govt in history. I see Reason 4 as, not virtue signaling, so much as well-intended virtue-signaling to oneself:  "Mirror, mirror on the wall,  who's the most socialisty socialist of them all?" "Oh! You are, darling, you are! And your personal purity is worth more than all the people in the country!". Please question your political priorities.

I will probably vote Greens because I think Labour will walk the election at a national level anyway, and I agree more with Green than current Labour.

[urban.spaceman]

 

 

https://shop.labour.org.uk/product/sparkle-with-starmer-t-shirt

 

The only thing missing from this is a free bag of glitter!

[StanSP]

UK politics AND Middle-East war chat and the thread is still open. 

 

This is FT folklore

 

[Lionator]

I posted this on the now deceased thread but again I don’t think US and UK politicians have fully come to terms with how much Iraq has damaged the public’s trust in Middle Eastern foreign policy. 

[Alf Bentley]

10 minutes ago, bmt said:

I will probably vote Greens because I think Labour will walk the election at a national level anyway, and I agree more with Green than current Labour.

 

I suppose that's a possible Reason 5. 

 

But I'd argue that reason is only reliable much closer to the election. I know Labour are well ahead in the polls now, but even if they only closed somewhat - say, to a 10-point lead - then the result would absolutely not be guaranteed.

In general, a struggling govt tends to claw back some support during its final year. Some pre-election cash will be handed out in tax cuts or public spending, inflation and interest rates might have fallen a bit, right-wing media will trash Lab credibility etc. At the moment, it looks like the Tories are heading for opposition (and maybe even a truly massive defeat), but that could change a fair bit in the next year.

 

Out of curiosity, what sort of seat are you in? Con safe seat, Lab/LD seat, marginal? 

 

Edited 11 October 2023 by Alf Bentley