Tactics Under Maresca

[RowlattsFox]

Anyone that is brave against us this season can beat us. If everyone plays men behind the ball then I think we need players who are comfortable and can pass quickly. 

 

 

[Dames]

4 minutes ago, RowlattsFox said:

Anyone that is brave against us this season can beat us. If everyone plays men behind the ball then I think we need players who are comfortable and can pass quickly. 

 

 

So essentially our weaknesses from last season are still our weaknesses this season… 

[Lillehamring]

2 minutes ago, RowlattsFox said:

Anyone that is brave against us this season can beat us. If everyone plays men behind the ball then I think we need players who are comfortable and can pass quickly. 

 

 

How many teams would that include then - not many i'd guess.  If we've shown today that even a team as good as liverpool can get caught out playing bravely against us, i would suspect that EFL teams are going to take note - granted we didn't do much with our chances, unfortunately one fell to ndidi, one mcateer missed the pull back option, one required VVD to make a top class interception - but still, teams in the EFL are, by definition, easier to score against than liverpool.

 

For me, the glaring weakness of the tactics, as we saw today, is sloppy passing and getting caught in possession - which i suppose there's a greater risk of happening if teams are brave against us, but then, full circle, if they push us, we've shown we can (potentially) make teams pay for this, in fact i think we've said in this thread, the system encourages the high press - unfortunately today, things were still a bit new.

[Lillehamring]

4 minutes ago, Dames said:

So essentially our weaknesses from last season are still our weaknesses this season… 

Potentially - but we have to factor in how new this still is, how good liverpool are - even little things like liverpool freshening legs at half time whilst we gave some players 90 minutes.

No system is flawless, but this system, it seems, puts less pressure on the players to be good on the ball (though obviously still competent!) as they have more and easier passing options - today's game was watching it in it's extreme, but it was largely the same as when we played northampton.

[Grebfromgrebland]

We could've done with some games against lower league clubs in this country really son that we could practice our tactics more.

 

It's a pity but we'll just have to use the first few games of the season to improve fitness etc

[Scotch]

40 minutes ago, Deeg67 said:

I know people don't want to hear it, but this is why someone like Praet (if he leaves, you need to replace him with a similar player) as a #8 is vital to keep around in the new regime.  He's calm in possession and can pick a pass.  There were a lot of guys out there for us today who don't really fit Enzo's system and, I suspect, won't be playing much when the games count.

I don't disagree, Praet is one of only 2 players who can play there but what I would say is that most of our play didn't even get as far as the #8 today. 

It was breaking down between the CB's and Winks/Ricardo. 

 

If we want to play this way, I think they need to do better in beating the press so we can get the likes of KDH/Praet involved. 

[sacreblueits442]

37 minutes ago, Lionator said:

I'm pretty certain that he doesn't think that. He's trying to implement a style of play that can work with the correct players (which is the issue). That style is not some insanely complex method of playing and we've seen that these players cannot implement the dreary Rodgers ball that took us to where we are now.

...the team put out there today looks like it could very well be our starting eleven for the opening game!!!

  We were pressed and could not handle it. Irrespective of the opponents being Liverpool, any team would make us look poor, just by them upping the tempo.

  They were looking like the team that crumbled last season,  plenty if men behind the ball and having no sense what to do or where to be.

  Dropping Ndidi and Daka would be the first thing, going all out for Hamer and Rak-Sakyi is also a must.

 

[Lillehamring]

14 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

We could've done with some games against lower league clubs in this country really son that we could practice our tactics more.

 

It's a pity but we'll just have to use the first few games of the season to improve fitness etc

We have already played against teams that sit deep and it was evident that we understood and could operate the tactics in those situations.  Playing liverpool tested us to see how well we could play the tactics under a high press.

As for fitness, we had 7 players get 90 minutes in tough conditions, and 3 others get 70+ - i'm sure they'll be pleased with this.

[Lillehamring]

14 minutes ago, Scotch said:

I don't disagree, Praet is one of only 2 players who can play there but what I would say is that most of our play didn't even get as far as the #8 today. 

It was breaking down between the CB's and Winks/Ricardo. 

 

If we want to play this way, I think they need to do better in beating the press so we can get the likes of KDH/Praet involved. 

Perspective, though - liverpool are probably one of the best pressing sides in the country and even with some less than ideal players being involved we did beat the press early on, and i'm sure daka was onside for that sweet ball over the top!  And we won quite a lot of corners too, so whilst we did have some issues where you say, we still found alternative ways to beat the press.

[Lillehamring]

6 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...the team put out there today looks like it could very well be our starting eleven for the opening game!!!

  We were pressed and could not handle it. Irrespective of the opponents being Liverpool, any team would make us look poor, just by them upping the tempo.

  They were looking like the team that crumbled last season,  plenty if men behind the ball and having no sense what to do or where to be.

  Dropping Ndidi and Daka would be the first thing, going all out for Hamer and Rak-Sakyi is also a must.

 

Liverpool had a lot of possession but we actually contained them quite well for the most part, the first goal we should have done better, and the 2nd and 3rd were mistakes - so i don't think it's fair to say, generally, we crumbled - it wasn't like brighton where every attack you knew they'd score. 

 

There aren't any teams in the EFL that will play that well, or even that high against us.

[sacreblueits442]

1 minute ago, Lillehamring said:

Liverpool had a lot of possession but we actually contained them quite well for the most part, the first goal we should have done better, and the 2nd and 3rd were mistakes - so i don't think it's fair to say, generally, we crumbled - it wasn't like brighton where every attack you knew they'd score. 

 

There aren't any teams in the EFL that will play that well, or even that high against us.

.. Liverpool started in 1st gear, there is a blueprint here to play against us!!!

 Just a change of tempo and we lost any composure that we had.

[Claudio Fannieri]

8 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...the team put out there today looks like it could very well be our starting eleven for the opening game!!!

  We were pressed and could not handle it. Irrespective of the opponents being Liverpool, any team would make us look poor, just by them upping the tempo.

  They were looking like the team that crumbled last season,  plenty if men behind the ball and having no sense what to do or where to be.

  Dropping Ndidi and Daka would be the first thing, going all out for Hamer and Rak-Sakyi is also a must.

 

Sorry but the quality of the press from Liverpool and the players being employed to execute the plan from Klopp are different level to what we will experience, Northampton pressed us and we passed through them time and time again. Quality of opposition is huge and makes a massive difference. People wetting their pants at being turned over by Liverpool in a pre season friendly is just ridiculous.
 

Yes we need reinforcements, yes we need to shift out the deadwood, yes we will no doubt see some inconsistency in both results and performances in the early weeks but I truly believe with Maresca if we can give him the right players who are fully committed we will see a very successful team and our club back on a upward trajectory. 

[Deeg67]

28 minutes ago, Scotch said:

I don't disagree, Praet is one of only 2 players who can play there but what I would say is that most of our play didn't even get as far as the #8 today. 

It was breaking down between the CB's and Winks/Ricardo. 

 

If we want to play this way, I think they need to do better in beating the press so we can get the likes of KDH/Praet involved. 

I think Winks is fine.  Liverpool is unlike anybody we'll be facing - with a bit of time on the ball he's fine as a deep-lying distributor.  Presumably Mads will be pretty good distributing from the back - the question is how effective the CBs will be, as they're going to see a lot of time on the ball.

 

I don't see Enzo playing a "defensive midfielder" against most opposition.  I think it'll be a Winks-Praet-KDH triangle and two wingbacka and among the group we have in-house now, that's the best option.

[Scotch]

14 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

Perspective, though - liverpool are probably one of the best pressing sides in the country and even with some less than ideal players being involved we did beat the press early on, and i'm sure daka was onside for that sweet ball over the top!  And we won quite a lot of corners too, so whilst we did have some issues where you say, we still found alternative ways to beat the press.

I said that in my initial post. We're not going to come up against the quality of Liverpool much but we will come up against teams who press high and we need to be able to play through it. 

Almost all the instances you're referring to came in the first 20 minutes when we were playing long sweeping balls that switched play and generally found Mcateer. We can't go in to the season with one game plan. We need an alternative and that alternative is to be able to play through the press which we didn't do well enough today. 

Not all teams will punish us by scoring 4 when the catch us out but to be fair, they only need to punish us once to win the game. 

 

I do understand it was a friendly and won't read too much into it but at this stage, I think the sharpness should be starting to show in players who've played most games so far and that wasn't there today with Winks and Ricardo wo we will rely on to make this style of play work. 

[trooky]

The only outfield players from last season's 1st team squad that look capable of playing this system are Winks and Pereira, 

 

Maybe it will be different in the championship but the rest just aren't composed enough on the ball and loose procession too easily.

 

Daka is a dreadful striker, he's fast and can run in behind but absolutely no football ability.

Edited 30 July 2023 by trooky

[JimJams]

7 minutes ago, trooky said:

The only outfield players from last season's 1st team squad that look capable of playing this system are Winks and Pereira

Erm... so just Pereira then.

[Beachyboy]

I didn't see the game but purely from looking at the scoreline we've lost 4-0 at home to Liverpool in Dec 2019, shortly after we'd been on our best ever premiership streak of 8 wins on the bounce, with a team in the top 4 or 5 if the premiership. Less than 5 months ago Liverpool beat man utd 7-0, when they really turn up Liverpool, you can count on one hand even now how many teams in world football can live with them.

[trooky]

11 minutes ago, JimJams said:

Erm... so just Pereira then.

Yep, but Winks looks good even though he wasn't here last season. 

 

Didn't want to include McAteer in any criticism because he played quite well and  is only just getting a chance.

[Lambert09]

On 18/07/2023 at 10:41, Lambert09 said:

I dont want to be a negative nancy because finally things are looking good but I am starting to have a bit of a concern.  We are building a team to be the "man city of the championship"... we are assuming that teams are going to sit back against us. But heres the thing.... im not convinced this is going to be true. 

 

When we played blackburn and before that forest neither of them looked at our premier league side and decided to park the bus. When most teams played burnley... at least in the first half of the campaign... I wouldnt say they fully retreated either. 

 

I have this niggling feeling that theres a little bit of delusion that all the other teams will be terrified of us and sit back... but I really dont see it. At least half of the sides are going to fancy taking something from us. 

 

What concerns me, is that we fully commit to a team designed to succeed when a team is using a low block but how will we cope against teams that actually want to play?  I just really hope we arent underestimating the league. Theres been a few comments from Maresca that make me think that he just assumes everyone will be so far below us but I hope that is just confidence and not because he hasnt fully assessed the strength of the league. 

I think this feeling is doubling down in my gut. 
 

If teams attack us (which they will) I’m really worried we don’t have a system that will sustain that pressure and on top of that, we don’t have the players to create enough to outscore teams in a basketball match. 

 

This week needs to be rudkins finest because as it stands maresca is building something without the hammers and nails 

[Beachyboy]

18 minutes ago, Lambert09 said:

I think this feeling is doubling down in my gut. 
 

If teams attack us (which they will) I’m really worried we don’t have a system that will sustain that pressure and on top of that, we don’t have the players to create enough to outscore teams in a basketball match. 

 

This week needs to be rudkins finest because as it stands maresca is building something without the hammers and nails 

We need to start well, winning is all that matters initially. After that we can't really afford to go more than about 3 games without a win maximum. I do think teams like Forest and Blackburn when they played us in FA cup raised there game. We also have to bare in mind that ya likes of Huddersfield, Rotherham, QPR, Bristol City who I don't think will challenge the top 6, but may take points of the other challengers so the overall points score needed, may not be as high as previous seasons.

Edited 30 July 2023 by Beachyboy

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

This was what confused me though - ricardo was pulled away from his inside role on a number of occasions, or came inside and left space for Salah out wide. Resulting in him being out of position for the first goal (though he still should have done better?

 

That’s literally the downside of our system. The “weakness” is that if you force a turnover, especially in the double pivot / base of the box area, then there are big gaps on either side that can be exploited. Fortunately there aren’t many teams with as effective a high press as Liverpool or wide forwards as good as Salah, but if you were Mark Robbins at Coventry, this is the area you would target.  Teams that are great at fast transitions can exploit our setup. 
 

At the end of the day this is the Jekyll and Hyde of this system.
 

Pros:

- If you beat the press you can create tons of chances.

- Versus deep blocks you have an additional man to construct / build attacks with. 
 

Cons

- Play tends to be focused centrally. 
- Vulnerable on the transition as the team shape is not ideal at this point. 
 

You’ll note that earlier I said “even if we get battered, I’m excited.” That’s because you could see it coming, Liverpool started to control the game and we were turning the ball over more frequently. But should we be surprised? If you said a Championship team who has had a manager in charge for 4 weeks is going to try and play out from the back against a Jurgen Klopp Liverpool team, how do you think the Championship team would fare? 
 

Judgement should be reserved for a lot later on, when the manager has his squad and we’ve played the system for a while. Remember this is a friendly, so if you are going to dare to try something, now is the time to do so. 
 

 

Edited 30 July 2023 by StriderHiryu

[weller54]

14 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

That’s literally the downside of our system. The “weakness” is that if you force a turnover, especially in the double pivot / base of the box area, then there are big gaps on either side that can be exploited. Fortunately there aren’t many teams with as effective a high press as Liverpool or wide forwards as good as Salah, but if you were Mark Robbins at Coventry, this is the area you would target.  Teams that are great at fast transitions can exploit our setup. 
 

At the end of the day this is the Jekyll and Hyde of this system.
 

Pros:

- If you beat the press you can create tons of chances.

- Versus deep blocks you have an additional man to construct / build attacks with. 
 

Cons

- Play tends to be focused centrally. 
- Vulnerable on the transition as the team shape is not ideal at this point. 
 

You’ll note that earlier I said “even if we get battered, I’m excited.” That’s because you could see it coming, Liverpool started to control the game and we were turning the ball over more frequently. But should we be surprised? If you said a Championship team who has had a manager in charge for 4 weeks is going to try and play out from the back against a Jurgen Klopp Liverpool team, how do you think the Championship team would fare? 
 

Judgement should be reserved for a lot later on, when the manager has his squad and we’ve played the system for a while. Remember this is a friendly, so if you are going to dare to try something, now is the time to do so. 
 

 

Surely whether it's a friendly or a league game you don't just keep getting caught in possession time and time again... We can't play possession based football, it was as clear as day in that game today!... Whether you're playing Liverpool or Coventry you can't just keep giving the ball away!.. Play like that next Saturday and we lose!! 

[Matt]

4 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Surely whether it's a friendly or a league game you don't just keep getting caught in possession time and time again... We can't play possession based football, it was as clear as day in that game today!... Whether you're playing Liverpool or Coventry you can't just keep giving the ball away!.. Play like that next Saturday and we lose!! 

It defy's logic playing nonsense football, especially in your own half/area.

 

I just don't get it, you create your own problems, you do half the job for the opposition.

[Lambert09]

Fwiw i do think marescas style will work with the right players… but currently we don’t have it and how he adapts is critical… i’m not convinced he will waiver on the system and that could be his undoing unless we have the best transfer week in 4 years 

[StriderHiryu]

25 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Surely whether it's a friendly or a league game you don't just keep getting caught in possession time and time again... We can't play possession based football, it was as clear as day in that game today!... Whether you're playing Liverpool or Coventry you can't just keep giving the ball away!.. Play like that next Saturday and we lose!! 

How to tell everyone you're a dinosaur without telling them you're a dinosaur.

 

How do you get better at playing out from the back? By actually doing it! Who cares if the score today was 4-0, 40-0 or 400-0? It was worth the same amount of points - zero. The manager has said multiple times, it's about how the team understands the idea rather than the result at this point in time.

 

Who are the current best club team in the world? Manchester City, for whom Enzo Maresca helped guide to a treble. Who play exactly the same way. Yeah they have better players, but even for them it took time. Do you remember us beating them 4-2 at a rain soaked King Power early in Guardiola's reign where we counter-attacked them to death and Vardy scored a hat-trick? It takes time and practice to get a system like to work, but the results are there when it does.

 

Let's look at the Premier League last season:

1. Man City. Play out from the back.

2. Arsenal. Play out from the back.

3. Manchester United. Played out from the back, but badly, which is why they brought a new goalkeeper for 50M.

4. Newcastle United. Play out from the back.

5. Liverpool. Play out from the back.

6. Brighton. The best team at playing out from the back in Europe.

7. Aston Villa. Play out from the back.

8. Spurs. Didn't play out from the back, but just hired a manager that does.

 

This is modern football. The days of playing a direct 442 and winning the physical battle are over. The days of trying to have 70% possession and suffocate the opposition to death like the Spanish world cup winning team are over. The days of playing a deep block and hitting teams on the counter can work for individual games, but the days of it winning a title are also over. The modern game is about being comfortable on the ball, counter-pressing and lightning fast transitions. In fact if you think about it, it's a combination of all of the other styles merged into one.

 

I am so glad we hired a manager like this. It could completely go tits up and backfire and we end up midtable as it all goes wrong. But it could also lead to creating a state of the art, modern team, that can compete with the very best like Brighton proved this season. The gamble is we take one step back to go two forwards, and playing this way with this manager gives us a chance of doing that.
 

 

Edited 30 July 2023 by StriderHiryu